Why an ether/aether?

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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altonhare
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Re: Why an ether/aether?

Unread post by altonhare » Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:52 pm

If I could suggest SOMETHING?
-Kevin

Of course you can, you already have. I suppose you may, also.
There is a difference between NOTHING and NO-THING, and that difference is where I consider You are having a problem.
-Kevin

Please state this difference explicitly. Define nothing and define no-thing. You cannot communicate meaningfully with me unless you tell me what YOU mean by these terms. To me they are synonymous.

You say that "no-thing is everything". So no-thing is synonymous with everything and nothing is the opposite, it is the absence of something.

So, all you have done is stated that no-thing is a synonym for everything. This doesn't tell me anything new. I think you will have to make clear the difference between nothing and no-thing by defining "thing".
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kevin
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Re: Why an ether/aether?

Unread post by kevin » Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:23 pm

Alton hare,
You appear very bright to me indeed, but have totally swallowed the pill of this society.
You want only things that fit, but one shape doesn't fit another.
Space and all that is contained within it, is no-thing, as far as the 3d reality that our biological bodies are a consequence of.
Everything else that You define as concrete things are a consequence of implosion upon a matrix framework of fibonacci sequences of a fractal nature.
All of our science and accumulated knowledge is of that fraction of creation that is 3d orientated, but it is a fraction of the whole.
I can only glimpse the whole, but am becoming more adept at been at one with it, it is beyond explanation, as there are no concrete bounderies to fix to, the only part solid as such is the neutral geometric matrix carrier system, that fits the geometry that junglelord is trying to describe to You, but naturally to You it does not exist, as you are so convinced by the reality that 3D offers, so was I up until three years ago, when in an instant I KNEW, and it can be very difficult to handle, and drives You forward to better comprehend it's majesty.

I have no schooling, hence my language skills are zero, but I am trying to solve that, a responsibility goes with KNOWING, You either shrink inwards and just become, or better still in my view try to explain and inform.
I was shown many things instantly, basically I simply remembered some of what we all know, we are all ONE.
kevin

Grey Cloud
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Re: Why an ether/aether?

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:28 pm

Hi Kevin,
Nice post.
Four
Tao is hollow emptiness.

The substance of All,
it is absent of substance.
Dimensionless Void,
it is the source of the ten thousand things.

It blunts sharpness,
unravels entanglements,
diffuses brightness,
merges with dust.

Dark, invisible, it only seems to be.
It is the child of No-Thing
and the father of God.

I Ching, Bart Marshall trans.
Rig Veda HYMN CXXIX. Creation.
1. THEN was not non-existent nor existent: there was no realm of air, no sky beyond it.
What covered in, and where? and what gave shelter? Was water there, unfathomed depth of water?
2 Death was not then, nor was there aught immortal: no sign was there, the day's and night's divider.
That One Thing, breathless, breathed by its own nature: apart from it was nothing whatsoever.
3 Darkness there was: at first concealed in darkness this All was indiscriminated chaos.
All that existed then was void and form less: by the great power of Warmth was born that Unit.
4 Thereafter rose Desire in the beginning, Desire, the primal seed and germ of Spirit.
Sages who searched with their heart's thought discovered the existent's kinship in the non-existent.
5 Transversely was their severing line extended: what was above it then, and what below it?
There were begetters, there were mighty forces, free action here and energy up yonder
6 Who verily knows and who can here declare it, whence it was born and whence comes this creation?
The Gods are later than this world's production. Who knows then whence it first came into being?
7 He, the first origin of this creation, whether he formed it all or did not form it,
Whose eye controls this world in highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he knows not.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10129.htm
It's a funny old world Kevin. If you put ten scientists in a room they will come up with eleven theories. If you put one hundred sages in a room they will come up with one account based on experience.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

altonhare
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Re: Why an ether/aether?

Unread post by altonhare » Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:40 pm

You appear very bright to me indeed, but have totally swallowed the pill of this society
-Kevin

Everywhere I look I see duality and contradiction, which I am opposed to. I find a tiny fraction of the people I encounter agree with me... how am I "swallowing the pill of society"?
Everything else that You define as concrete things are a consequence of implosion upon a matrix framework of fibonacci sequences of a fractal nature.
-Kevin

The fibonacci sequence is just a series of symbols. If you want to attribute some significance to these symbols you will have to state what the symbols refer to. Otherwise they are just markings with no referents.

As far as I can tell, the majority on this forum and in society basically agree with you Kevin. If you want to disagree with me that's fine but don't tell me I'm a tool of society when I obviously disagree with every mainstream theory and have posited one that only three people I know take seriously (Bill says he gets a lot of positive e mails these days, but I only know of a couple people). Doing so is insulting.
I have no schooling, hence my language skills are zero,
-Kevin

That's fine, even better that you've probably had no math. The language of physics is visualization, not math. Anyone can visualize or demonstrate, we don't need to solve differential equations or know Heisenberg representations to resolve issues of physics.
It's a funny old world Kevin. If you put ten scientists in a room they will come up with eleven theories.
-GC

If you put 10 mathematical physicists in a room they will write an equation that will fit whatever experiment each of them decides to do. Then they'll try to mash them all together into one equation and say they've understood the universe.

Put 10 scientists in a room and they will pose theories until they have one that explains all observations without contradiction.
If you put one hundred sages in a room they will come up with one account based on experience.
-GC

The shape/location definition of object (and by extension existence) works precisely because it does not depend on perception or observation. One hundred people will tell different stories no matter who they are, but an object has shape and location all on its own.
Physicist: This is a pen

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junglelord
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Re: Why an ether/aether?

Unread post by junglelord » Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:06 pm

It's a funny old world Kevin. If you put ten scientists in a room they will come up with eleven theories. If you put one hundred sages in a room they will come up with one account based on experience.
We did this in college and five grams of mushrooms apiece every Friday for three months.
It was a constant group of six.
The account based on the experience was collective consciouness.
:D

Turns out five grams is the proper dosage.
We were part of a clinical trial in Canada on Sages.
:geek:
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
— Junglelord.
Knowledge is Structured in Consciouness. Structure and Function Cannot Be Seperated.
— Junglelord

altonhare
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Re: Why an ether/aether?

Unread post by altonhare » Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:17 am

Can you show me an aether? And show physically how this thing justifies rectilinear travel of light and gravitation?
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Grey Cloud
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Re: Why an ether/aether?

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:44 am

altonhare wrote:Can you show me an aether? And show physically how this thing justifies rectilinear travel of light and gravitation?
Can you show me a thread or logic?
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

altonhare
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Re: Why an ether/aether?

Unread post by altonhare » Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:28 am

Grey Cloud wrote:
altonhare wrote:Can you show me an aether? And show physically how this thing justifies rectilinear travel of light and gravitation?
Can you show me a thread or logic?
Of course I can show you a thread. For TT I can show you a model of the Thread. A model of the aether will do, also. The last thing I saw was a dumbbell with little snaky ropes around it with +'s and -'s on it. I can't conceive of how such an object can justify rectilinear travel or gravitation or what + and - symbols have to do with explaining these phenomena.

On the other hand a taut thread connecting the earth and sun can only carry a signal rectilinear and justifies physically the force of pull (attraction).

GC you have made clear your standpoint regarding math. TT does not require any math whatsoever. On the other hand aether models rely almost exclusively on math, the manipulation of symbols invented by humans. I have not seen a single illustration of WHY light travels rectilinear or WHY the earth is attracted to the sun. You have agreed that these mathematical symbols must always have physical referents, but where is the physical aether or what does it look like? How does the aether's structure justify its function of propagating a signal rectilinear and pulling two bodies towards one another? JL cannot answer this.
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Grey Cloud
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Re: Why an ether/aether?

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:43 am

Hi lton,
You wrote:
Of course I can show you a thread.
No you cannot. You can show me a picture of a thread but you cannot show me an actual thread as in your basic, fundamental constituent of matter or whatever it is supposed to be.

And logic? Can you show me so much as a picture of logic?
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

altonhare
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Re: Why an ether/aether?

Unread post by altonhare » Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:37 pm

Grey Cloud wrote:Hi lton,
You wrote:
Of course I can show you a thread.
No you cannot. You can show me a picture of a thread but you cannot show me an actual thread as in your basic, fundamental constituent of matter or whatever it is supposed to be.

And logic? Can you show me so much as a picture of logic?
This thread is about aether. I can show you a three dimensional elongated object and call it a thread. Can anyone show me a model of an aether?
Physicist: This is a pen

Mathematician: It's pi*r2*h

Grey Cloud
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Re: Why an ether/aether?

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:50 pm

Hi Alton,
You wrote:
I can show you a three dimensional elongated object and call it a thread. Can anyone show me a model of an aether?
I can show you a bucket of water and call it the aether. You are the one with the obsession with models. Others can deal with things without them.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

altonhare
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Re: Why an ether/aether?

Unread post by altonhare » Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:04 pm

Grey Cloud wrote:Hi Alton,
You wrote:
I can show you a three dimensional elongated object and call it a thread. Can anyone show me a model of an aether?
I can show you a bucket of water and call it the aether. You are the one with the obsession with models. Others can deal with things without them.
What matters here is structure. How does the structure of the aether justify its function. If aether is like water it cannot justify gravity or light. JL is obsessed with structure, too. It's the one thing he says that I agree is absolutely correct, something's structure MUST justify its function. He says this over and over.

So what is the structure of the aether that justifies its function of propagating light etc.?
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junglelord
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Re: Why an ether/aether?

Unread post by junglelord » Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:00 pm

Aether is tangable and is best described as creativity , its known as art in the human world of consciouness, the result of creativity of consciousness that is inspired. A perfect example is Jazz. Live Jazz is tangable. Live Jazz comes from and goes back to the aether from whence it came. Ask any Jazz musician. Better yet go to a Jazz concert. You will see that you cannot explain it by words. You will see that it cannot be repeated twice the same. Ask any Jazz musician to do this and he will think your retarded. A few people here act like science has no art attached to it. I tell you this is retarded. I am a Jazz Musician setting the record straight, full pun intended.
:lol:

However music is a defined science of cords, octaves, rhythm patterns, cultural influence, etc. Yet still without creativity it has no life at all and is dead. Science is a dead art because it denies life as being fundamental to the universe. Aether is the creative process of the universe that is alive. Human beings act as antenna and also as transmitters of this creative process that is only processed via consciouness. You cannot purely define music and art by science. That is dead.

It is time for the Renaissance Man to return, thats what I am.
He is the most profound thinker. Divinci knew of Sacred Geometry, Art, Science, Creativity.
Very few modern men could ever hold a candle to his brillance and knowledge.
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
— Junglelord.
Knowledge is Structured in Consciouness. Structure and Function Cannot Be Seperated.
— Junglelord

Plasmatic
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Re: Why an ether/aether?

Unread post by Plasmatic » Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:40 pm

It is time for the Renaissance Man to return, thats what I am.
:shock: :lol: The Renaissance was the "rebirth" of reason over mystcism. The opposite of your ideas.
"Logic is the art of non-contradictory identification"......" I am therefore Ill think"
Ayn Rand
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
Aristotle

altonhare
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Re: Why an ether/aether?

Unread post by altonhare » Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:10 pm

Aether is tangable and is best described as creativity , its known as art in the human world of consciouness, the result of creativity of consciousness that is inspired.
-JL

No JL, what is aether's structure that defines its function. You obviously think very highly of structure and claim that something's *physical* structure is unique to what it *does*:
Structure and function cannot be seperated. Nuclear bombs must be specific shapes....thats just a fact of nature.
-Junglelord
Tensegrity was an engineering principle of Buckminster Fuller that seemed to identify the function of Fascia (connective tissue) via its structure.
-Junglelord
Also proof of something not considered possible till the Nanotech guys showed them that Structure controls Function.
-Junglelord
Structure is the Key to control Function. Thats what I was taught. Thats been my motivating principle and guiding light.
-Junglelord
Only those that understand the relationship of structure and function can apprciate the childlike simplisticy of the universe.
-Junglelord

So JL, what is the childishly simple structure of the aether that defines its function?

My structure is a simple cylindrical ball/socket joint. I have a structure. It fits inside others like it and forms atoms while also connecting them. They are continuous objects and so collisions are perfectly elastic, there is no "energy loss" in the transmission of light along these chains. Every atom pulls on every other atom in the universe via these chains, resulting in gravitation. Structure->Function.

Where's your structure JL and how does it function?
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