Kronos & TPOD Highlights

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Kronos & TPOD Highlights

Unread postby Lloyd » Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:03 pm

http://thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1597
Kronos: http://sci.lefora.com/2009/03/19/vol-9-11/page1
Ancient History: http://sci.lefora.com/2009/03/19/myth/page1

Kronos magazine had a lot of good articles on mythology and ancient history. The second link above provides some of the highlights from some of the last issues. A good source of later myth work online is http://kronia.com/thoth.html.
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Re: Kronos & TPOD Highlights

Unread postby Lloyd » Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:51 am

Kronos 9:1 - 1984
- p43, DC: The ancients said the outer planets known to them, Mars, Jupiter & Saturn could shoot out thunderbolts.
- p46: Science now accepts this as well, saying: Jupiter's powerful electrical currents may discharge lightning bolts all the way to Io, its nearest moon. Time 9/16/74
- p48: IV thought it was possible for electric discharges in air to transmute oxygen into sulfur.
- p50: Thomas Gold believed that Io's spectacular volcanic eruptions were electrical in origin.
- p51: The rain of brimstone [sulfur] on Sodom and other nearby biblical cities could have come from Io [when Jupiter was near the Earth].
- p53: Science did not believe stones or iron could fall from the sky until 1803.

* DC means Dwardu Cardona, a prominent member of the TB team. In one of the issues of Kronos he said it seems that, at least for some time, when Saturn was on our north polar axis, Jupiter was on the south polar axis. And something caused the Earth to turn over. So Jupiter replaced Kronos-Saturn for a time. He called Jupiter the God of Abraham. While the Israelites continued to worship Saturn, Abraham tried to get them to switch allegiance to Jupiter. And later Moses tried to change allegiance to Yahweh, which name may be the same as Jove = Jupiter.
* I don't know if Dwardu still holds to the idea that Sodom's sulfur came from a thunderbolt from Jupiter or Io. If anyone has read his recent books, can you tell us about that? I suppose those books haven't gotten to the Jupiter event, since that was at the end of the Saturn age. Lightning can likely transmute oxygen into sulfur, but it may also be able to transfer sulfur from Jupiter or Io to Earth.
* Here's another quote:
Kronos 9:3 - 1984
- p.20, DC: Isrealites worshiped Moloch = Saturn, despite Abraham's and Moses' warnings not to. They devoured their children to imitate Saturn.
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Re: Kronos & TPOD Highlights

Unread postby StevenJay » Sat Mar 21, 2009 1:24 pm

Ever since I was first introduced to the Saturn Theory, it, more than any other topic associated with the EU Model, has completely arrested my attention and fascination. There is one aspect of the "Great Conjunction" that I'm still unclear about, though, and that is its position with regard to our central sun that caused the sun to remain hidden from an Earthbound perspective, while at the same time, casting a circumnavigating crecent glow upon Saturn, as shown in the fourth "Alien Sky" preview clip.

Did the aligned planets orbit on or near the sun's ecliptic (like the sweep-hand of a clock) with the aligned planets' axial rotations perpendicular to that of the sun, similar to Uranus? I'm just having trouble visualizing the over-all configuration here.
It's all about perception.
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Re: Kronos & TPOD Highlights

Unread postby Lloyd » Sat Mar 21, 2009 3:18 pm

* Everything outside of the Saturn System in the former age of Saturn was obscured by the atmosphere of Saturn, which was much larger then than it is now. So the sun, stars and possibly other planets were not visible. See http://kronia.com/thoth.html for details about the Saturn configuration.
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Re: Kronos & TPOD Highlights

Unread postby moses » Sat Mar 21, 2009 4:39 pm

StevenJay wrote:Ever since I was first introduced to the Saturn Theory, it, more than any other topic associated with the EU Model, has completely arrested my attention and fascination. There is one aspect of the "Great Conjunction" that I'm still unclear about, though, and that is its position with regard to our central sun that caused the sun to remain hidden from an Earthbound perspective, while at the same time, casting a circumnavigating crecent glow upon Saturn, as shown in the fourth "Alien Sky" preview clip.

I feel that the Saturn Theory is more important than any other subject. It saddens me deeply
that it is not discussed here. Humanity once lived in a world-wide paradise that got smashed,
and the resultant epigenetic and genetic changes have left humanity mere shells of what we
once were, and consequently, what we could be. This is shown by those great people that have
transformed themselves into something extraordinary. But still greater transformation awaits
those humans that relive the horrendous trauma that humanity went through after the break-up
of the Saturn-Jupiter System. But clearly an enormous task.

In the Saturn-Jupiter System there was a plasma bridge between them, along with a number of
planets. The double layer around this plasma bridge was probably in glow mode, and this would
have prevented humans seeing the stars and the Sun, which would not have been very big or
bright at the distance of somewhere between the orbit of Saturn and Jupiter, but still bright
enough to form a shadow on Saturn. Now the Saturn-Jupiter System was likely rotating, and
so the Sun would have been at a probably slowly changing angle wrt Saturn. Certain angles
would have produced a brighter 'arced' reflection.

All theoretical, of course, until humanity can recall those days, or we find historical absolute
evidence, or the aliens tell us what happened.
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Re: Kronos & TPOD Highlights

Unread postby Lloyd » Sun Mar 22, 2009 12:11 pm

* Good points, Mo.
* Steven, I guess you saw this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2CyXtD0J2I. Toward the end of it is shown what the Saturn configuration looked like during the latter part of the Saturn age. It's probably not a completely accurate representation, but it seems to be reasonably close. The large yellowish sphere is Saturn. The white sphere with rays around it is Venus. The smaller red sphere is Mars, which was seen to move into and out of the center of the face of Venus. The crescent shape is shown, which is sunlight reflecting off of the atmosphere of Saturn. When the sun was to the left, the crescent appeared on the left side of Saturn. When the sun was above Saturn, the crescent appeared above Saturn. And so on. So the crescent appeared to move around Saturn each day, resembling a ship sailing around like clockwork. The sun and stars were not visible from Earth until the Saturn system dispersed. So there was apparently a larger, thinner plasma atmosphere around the Saturn system as well, which contained the Earth along with the rest of the system and which obscured all objects on the outside of the outer atmosphere.
* If anyone was able to live at the north pole, they would have seen the Saturn system straight up in the sky above. The Earth didn't revolve around, or orbit, Saturn. It stayed stationary below Saturn's south pole. Venus was also stationary below Saturn's south pole. Mars moved up and down between Venus and Earth, seeming to grow large and then shrink again.
* The video doesn't show the polar plasma column, but it looked like a Christmas tree at the north pole with the Saturn system on top, like a star. Mars was like red Santa Claus, moving up and down the tree. When the Saturn system encountered Jupiter, the system dispersed to reform in its present state. It's not certain yet, if Jupiter was part of the Saturn system above Saturn, or below Earth, or if it was about in its present orbit around the sun. The latter seems most likely to me. When Jupiter was first seen, the Saturn system apparently was seen to move down below the horizon out of view and Jupiter was seen to rise above the horizon and occupy the place at the north pole that Saturn previously occupied. This suggests that, in reality, the Earth turned over, while it and the other 4 planets remained in the same places. So Jupiter must have been below the Earth. But it's not clear, if the Saturn system then first encountered Jupiter, or if Jupiter had been there for a long time.
* The Saturn system apparently was way outside of the solar system initially and, when it came to the sun's heliopause, the system started spiraling in toward the sun over decades or centuries.
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Re: Kronos & TPOD Highlights

Unread postby StevenJay » Sun Mar 22, 2009 12:14 pm

Thanks for the input, guys. But the visualization is still unclear.

moses wrote:The double layer around this plasma bridge was probably in glow mode, and this would have prevented humans seeing the stars and the Sun, which would not have been very big or bright at the distance of somewhere between the orbit of Saturn and Jupiter, but still bright enough to form a shadow on Saturn.

Are we certain that the Great Conjunction occurred at current-day Saturn/Jupiter distances, or was it closer to today's Earth/Mars orbits? From all that I have read, I get the impression that it was the latter.

Lloyd wrote:* Everything outside of the Saturn System in the former age of Saturn was obscured by the atmosphere of Saturn, which was much larger then than it is now. So the sun, stars and possibly other planets were not visible.

I can readily accept that Saturn's atmosphere would have rendered the stars invisible. But if the sun was bright enough to cast a crecent glow on Saturn, then it would stand to reason that it would also appear as a much brighter area in the twilight "glow" of Earth's sky. Or, then again, maybe not.

At any rate, I've been all over the Kronia site and have watched "Remebering the End of the World" and all of the "Alien Sky" clips, but I've yet to find the answer to my question. There was a very brief segment in the REW video that showed the planetary alignment but, as I recall, it wasn't shown in a system-wide context. Have I missed something obvious?
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Re: Kronos & TPOD Highlights

Unread postby Lloyd » Sun Mar 22, 2009 12:25 pm

Here's more from Kronos 10:1 - 1985 [my comments in brackets]:
http://sci.lefora.com/2009/03/19/vol-9-11/page1
- p6-7, DC: Talbott thinks Saturn wandered before settling into the polar position, but DC can find no mythical evidence for this, only evidence that Saturn always rested at the pole.
- p2: Saturn originally had several disruptions [or flares; it flared up like a nova], which always changed its appearance, so that the ancients gave it new names each time. [I think each flare-up occurred centuries apart.]
- p3: The great majority of deities trace to Saturn, while far fewer trace to other planets.
- p9: According to myths, the Egyptian Atum=Saturn originally had no perch [no plasma column to sit on].
- p17, RA: Hamlet's Mill concludes that myths show sophisticated prehistoric knowledge of astronomy.
- p21: Crucial characters of gods or a primordial god [Saturn] originated at least 20,000 years ago, to be proved in a later phase of this study. Ordinary history from that period was somehow blotted out [possibly because humans focused on Saturn, or because catastrophes destroyed most early records, or because humans didn't use much speech or writing until later].
- p22: After the reorganization of the universe following chaos, Janus states: It was then that I, till that time a mere ball, a shapeless lump, assumed the face and members of a god [Janus was Saturn, previously a shapeless ball]. In Ovid's work, Metamorphoses, a golden age follows creative reorganization.
- p24: If Saturn, as Janus, was seen as a ball, it was close. The Latin name for Saturn, sun-star, suggests the same.
- p7, DC: Through most of the Golden Age Saturn had 7 rings, not the present ones, but originally it had none, then one, which split into 3, then 7.
- p11: polar axis = vortex = serene ruach [spirit] of Genesis and hurakan of Americas = later destructive abubu of Assyro-Babylonia and Shiva of India.
- p4: When Saturn disappeared from the polar configuration, the stars first became visible, and were thought to be dismembered parts of Saturn's body.
- p5: Constellations and planetoids were named for former Saturn traits.
- p13: Early ancients thought planets were gods, but later ancients realized that the gods were planets and said so.
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Re: Kronos & TPOD Highlights

Unread postby Lloyd » Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:23 pm

* I see in Kronos 10:2 here http://sci.lefora.com/2009/03/19/vol-9-11/page1 the Cardona said
Jupiter & Saturn were in harmonious proximity for millennia
, so that contradicts what I just said.
* Steven, I see you posted again before the post I just made. The images toward the end of this video make the configuration pretty clear: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2CyXtD0J2I. You just need to fill in a polar plasma column, shaped like a Christmas tree, with Saturn, Venus and sometimes Mars on top of the tree.
* Imagine the Saturn system being at the celestial latitude where the north star is now, but much closer. Instead of seeing the north star, you'd see Saturn and Venus, looking much larger than the moon now looks. And you'd see Mars sometimes moving down toward Earth and looking like a growing giant sphere and other times moving back up moving onto the face of Saturn.
* In reality Saturn would have been, say, 300,000 miles up, Venus 200,000 miles and Mars 50,000 to 150,000 miles up. Saturn would have been about 80,000 miles in diameter and its medium atmosphere would have been about 150,000 miles in diameter. It's thinner outer atmosphere would have been maybe 400,000 miles in diameter. So Earth would have been inside the thinner atmosphere. If that atmosphere was active plasma, anything outside of it would have been distorted beyond recognition. When the Saturn system was 3 billion miles from the sun, the sun would have looked like a star, if the plasma atmosphere didn't distort it. The crescent reflection off of Saturn's middle atmosphere would have been very dim at that distance. As the system slowly spiraled inward toward the sun, the crescent would have gotten gradually brighter and easier to see and the daytime would have gotten brighter too. When the Saturn system was distant from the sun, the main light would have been from Saturn. When the system got closer to the sun, the daytime sunlight would have gradually become brighter than Saturn's light. So the days would have been fairly bright and the nights would have been dimmer, but much brighter than what we experience now when we have a full moon, because Saturn was much bigger and brighter than the moon. Saturn would have appeared to be about 20 or 30 times the size of the moon as we see the moon today. So it would have looked huge.
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Re: Kronos & TPOD Highlights

Unread postby nick c » Sun Mar 22, 2009 9:52 pm

Hi StevenJay,
It is good to find someone who is capable of keeping an open mind to
this line of thought. I think most people are not yet ready for this.
My introduction was quite different, having become familiar with the Saturn Theory and it's variations long before learning about the EU. The standard criticism of planetary catastrophism was that it was a violation of the known "laws" of celestial mechanics. Carl Sagan said that while Velikovsky's compilation of evidence was impressive, the final arbitrator must be celestial mechanics. The ancient testimony of the gods battling by hurling thunderbolts at each other and at Earth, causing destruction of civilizations and threatening the extinction of the human species, was evidence that these "laws" of celestial mechanics must be incorrect or at least poorly understood. The EU provided a new understanding of how celestial bodies would behave under different conditions. With the arrival of the EU now there was a model that could be consistent with what had been deduced from ancient testimony.

The problem you are having is one of understanding the dynamic of the proposed Saturnian system. It changed over time. The Saturnian system, of which Earth was apart, was captured by the Sun, eventually disrupted, causing the brown dwarf (proto Saturn) to go nova and give birth to Venus and form a new Solar System now dominated by the present yellow star.
see:
http://www.holoscience.com/views/view_other.htm
http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=9aqt6cz5

There would have been a time when the Sun was not even visible from Earth, as the Saturnian system moved alone through the dark of interstellar space wrapping its' satellites in a glowing plasma sheath. Then the system was captured by and came under the influence of the Sun, the yellow star would have become brighter, bigger, and more influential. If they weren't already in axial alignment with Saturn, its' satellites would have been so now. Once Saturn and its' retinue of satellites was in the system of the present Sun it would have been illuminated by the Sun, its' status as a star having been usurped by the much larger Sun, with its' plasma sheath no longer in glow mode the external universe was now visible to the inhabitants (survivors) on Earth. The former brown dwarf under electrical stress (possibly after an encounter with Jupiter) gave birth to Venus in a fissioning event.
see:
http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=pca22stj

A new solar system with the Sun as the dominant member was in the process of being ordered, a blend of the Saturnian system members and the bodies that were already a part of the Sun's system. The present order of the solar system may not have been attained until historical times.
This is a short summary of a general scenario that is a composite of various Saturn theorists. I am sure that it doesn't do justice to the subject or give all the details you desire to know.
I would suggest some reading material,
Cardonna's God Star and Flare Star
Talbott's The Saturn Myth is pretty much not available, however here is a summary:
http://www.kronia.com/saturn/satheory.txt
Talbott has written much on the subject in articles in the Thoth newsletter:
http://www.kronia.com/thoth.html
also the kronia website:
http://www.kronia.com/home.html
if you can get your hands on some copies of the journals 'Aeon' and 'Kronos' you can find numerous articles pertaining to Saturn theory and planetary catastrophism in general.
Good luck in your quest to unravel the past and learn how that past has made us the way we are.

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Re: Kronos & TPOD Highlights

Unread postby StevenJay » Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:13 am

nick c wrote:There would have been a time when the Sun was not even visible from Earth, as the Saturnian system moved alone through the dark of interstellar space wrapping its' satellites in a glowing plasma sheath.

Bingo! Thanks, Nick! I do recall reading that in one of Wal's papers at one point. But that little, though crucial, tidbit managed to slip through the cracks, as it were. Lloyd alluded to the same thing. . .
Lloyd wrote:When the Saturn system was 3 billion miles from the sun, the sun would have looked like a star, if the plasma atmosphere didn't distort it. The crescent reflection off of Saturn's middle atmosphere would have been very dim at that distance. As the system slowly spiraled inward toward the sun, the crescent would have gotten gradually brighter and easier to see and the daytime would have gotten brighter too.

. . . but, for some reason, it still didn't *click*! :lol: I'll just chalk it up to the fact that my awareness is steadily moving more and more deeply into right-brain mode, where feeling takes precedence over reasoning. . . which gives a whole new meaning (and challenge) to the saying: "May you live in interesting times." ;)

And I do feel that these times are every bit as interesting as those that our ancestors experienced as their "Eden" was torn assunder, and the human species was thrust into the resulting deep psychosis (which, I'm sure that we all see as coming to a head in the world around us); a debilitating state of mind that, at least, some of us are in the process of awakening from. From a larger perspective, though, I see the truth of it; the process through which, our consciousness is raised from that of an idylic 2nd-density awareness to the harsher 3rd density awareness of extreme contrast and duality. . . and beyond.

Thanks, y'all - interesting times, indeed! :)
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Re: Kronos & TPOD Highlights

Unread postby nick c » Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:13 am

StevenJay wrote:
And I do feel that these times are every bit as interesting as those that our ancestors experienced as their "Eden" was torn assunder, and the human species was thrust into the resulting deep psychosis (which, I'm sure that we all see as coming to a head in the world around us); a debilitating state of mind that, at least, some of us are in the process of awakening from. From a larger perspective, though, I see the truth of it; the process through which, our consciousness is raised from that of an idylic 2nd-density awareness to the harsher 3rd density awareness of extreme contrast and duality. . . and beyond.

Thanks, y'all - interesting times, indeed! :)


Yes, we (humankind) are on the verge of knowing the truth about our past. Our potential is unlimited, or rather only limited by ourselves. The way I see it, we have a window of opportunity, how long that window will remain open is anyone's guess. Our post catastrophe history has been the age of reenactment- humanities' repeated attempts to recreate the events that led to the near destruction of the world.
The enemy is time. I conclude with a verse which is not my own, and I do not render it exactly- but the hour is late, and I will repeat it:

We are in a race with the Reaper
We hastened, he tarried, we won.

I hope that it will be that way, and not the other way around.

from Velikovsky, Mankind In Amnesia 1982


There is a sadness in Velikovsky's later writings and interviews. It is my impression that he felt that he had failed. The doctor could not cure his patient.

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Re: Kronos & TPOD Highlights

Unread postby Lloyd » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:45 pm

* Nick said:
Once Saturn and its' retinue of satellites was in the system of the present Sun it would have been illuminated by the Sun, its' status as a star having been usurped by the much larger Sun, with its' plasma sheath no longer in glow mode the external universe was now visible to the inhabitants (survivors) on Earth.

* I think Cardona has said recently that the sun and stars were not visible to the ancients, until the Saturn system broke up. I think he or others have suggested that Saturn last flared up and the system broke up at the point where the main asteroid belt is now, between Mars and Jupiter. Saturn and Jupiter then moved back out to their present positions. Does he say otherwise in God Star? I think the system broke up about 5,000 years ago and the Great Flood occurred at that time.
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Re: Kronos & TPOD Highlights

Unread postby Lloyd » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:18 pm

* Here's more from: http://sci.lefora.com/2009/03/19/vol-9-11/page1
Kronos 10:1 - 1985
- p28, DT, EC: Ancient statements that contradict experience or logic are key to discovery [of mythical meanings].
- p34: The Venus light-god struggle with the serpent-dragon is mentioned in the pyramid texts, making the Venus appearance a thousand years before Velikovsky's 1500BC placement of it.
- p35: After cosmic upheaval, the serpent-dragon is subdued, becoming a circular dwelling of the god, its eye, crown, throne etc.
- p36: Set said, I am the red headband.
- p37: Uraeus is pharaoh's serpentine headband.
- p45, RA: Aster is Santa Claus surrounded with elfin assistants.
- Aster is Humpty-Dumpty on the wall.
- p47: The world axis is a beanstalk, a staircase.
- p49: Earth was brighter, warmer, moister and smooth [not hilly or mountainous] in auerial times.

Kronos 10:2 - 1985
- p71, RW: Ancients said Earth was Mother, because of being smooth, not mountainous. It had no great oceans, no salt water, p72 no moon to cause tides, no predators, no winter, no night; people sometimes ascended into the air; people were long-lived.
- p57, DC: Jupiter & Saturn were in harmonious proximity for millennia.
- Then they clashed and Jupiter disrupted the Saturn system.
- p60: Tidal transference of angular momentum from planets to satellites tends to force prograde satellites outward toward eventual gravitational escape.
- Tidal forces also tend to reduce the inclination of a satellite's orbit to zero, so satellite orbits could have had significant inclinations in the past.
- p62-3: Bass showed that planets could have approached each other, then settled into Bode's Law configuration in a few centuries; Thus the same would be true of satellites of the planets.
- p63: How did Mars manage to acquire 2 small satellites?
- p66: Earth turned upside down 7 days before Noah's Flood as per Ginsberg 1968, caused by influence of Jupiter and or Saturn.
- p67: The Jupiter-Saturn clash came long after Saturn's original flare-up
- Saturn's flare-up occurred at the same time as Earth's inversion, so both may have had the same cause.
- p68: 2 astronomers,Szebeheley & McKenzie [Astr J, Apr 77], showed that the Moon could have been a planet which was captured by the Earth.
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Re: Kronos & TPOD Highlights

Unread postby moses » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:01 pm

StevenJay wrote:Thanks for the input, guys. But the visualization is still unclear.

moses wrote:The double layer around this plasma bridge was probably in glow mode, and this would have prevented humans seeing the stars and the Sun, which would not have been very big or bright at the distance of somewhere between the orbit of Saturn and Jupiter, but still bright enough to form a shadow on Saturn.

Are we certain that the Great Conjunction occurred at current-day Saturn/Jupiter distances, or was it closer to today's Earth/Mars orbits? From all that I have read, I get the impression that it was the latter.

I like looking for the simplest possibility. A Saturn-Jupiter System that came apart with Saturn and Jupiter
separating with minimal relative velocities seems the simplest explanation. This would require the least
energy, for if there was too much energy in the break-up then Earth would have died. I don't find the
historical evidence of a Saturn System entering a Solar System at all convincing. A Saturn-Jupiter System
nearer the Sun that broke up and then both these big planets spiralled into their present orbits, seems
difficult energetically. Whereas an Earth which was kept warm between Saturn and Jupiter, and then
suddenly frozen and then periodically heated and froze in an elliptical orbit around the Sun, fits the
geological evidence.

The Sun might have been much more electrified in those days, and thus being much brighter would have
produced a significant shadow on Saturn. Greater electrical conditions could occur easily through the
Solar System passing through a double layer of a plasma cell, as a cosmic dust cloud, for example.

The evidence of our past is not great, so take the simple view first.
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