Recovered: Plasma cavitation?

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Recovered: Plasma cavitation?

Unread postby bboyer » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:11 pm

Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 8:30 pm Post subject: Plasma cavitation? Reply with quote
OP "astro-lite"

So hows this for a mad idea: it is an established fact that one can cavitate a fluid and the result can be light and an associated, high, temperature. This can be achieved with light and other waves.

Has anyone run across anything that has looked at plasma cavitation on an astronomical level? I am interested in any links, wave discussion etc.

Bow shock is especially interesting.

Just getting started...
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Re: Recovered: Plasma cavitation?

Unread postby bboyer » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:12 pm

Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 1:10 am Post subject: Yeah Reply with quote
OP "Human Being"

Wow, that's a good idea there. Then, how about supercavitation?
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Re: Recovered: Plasma cavitation?

Unread postby bboyer » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:13 pm

Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 4:47 am Post subject: Plasma Cavitation in Space Reply with quote
OP "lk"

.Here are 3 links to a Swedish Institute, one link to a Berkeley paper and 2 links to an online book. The Swedish and Berkeley papers seem to deal with atmospheric plasma cavitation. I don't remember how the online book relates to the subject, but it's a very interesting book.
.
http://cluster.irfu.se/ks/conf.html
ISSI workshop#3 on Alfvénic structures, 6-10 April 1999. Organizer.
Nonlinear Waves and Chaos III, February 28-March 5, 1999, Carlsbad, USA. Invited: Dispersive Alfvén structures in the magnetosphere and plasma cavitation. k.stasiewicz@irfu.se Kristof Stasiewicz, PhD, associate professor, Swedish Institute of Space Physics, Uppsala, Sweden.
http://www-pw.physics.uiowa.edu/~wsk/ca ... n_Modes.ps.
August 2, 1999
Objectives/Operation Mode Preferences for the Langmuir probe part of the RPWS investigation; Titan
Prepared by J-E. Wahlund
Swedish Institute of Space Physics, Uppsala Division, Sweden
(Email: jwe@irfu.se)
http://www.copernicus.org/EGS/egsga/nic ... ai2499.pdf
.
http://sprg.ssl.berkeley.edu/adminstuff ... jgr_A03206
.
http://www.1stardrive.com/solar/plasma.htm
http://www.1stardrive.com/solar/fusion.htm
1 Star Drive is by John Gard, a graduate Electronics Engineer. The plasma page discusses cavitation; the fusion page discusses electrical forces involved in fusion. He's got a whole book here. Looks interesting altho it accepts the theory that stars are nuclear powered. On the other hand he says "The Solar System is simply a motor that is powered by the sun. The same concepts and principles will apply to the Galaxy and the Universe." And we know motors are powered by electricity.
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Re: Recovered: Plasma cavitation?

Unread postby bboyer » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:13 pm

Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 8:32 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "astro-lite"

Thanks for the links.

The http://space.irfu.se/ looks very interesting and the last http://www.1stardrive.com/solar/plasma.htm link threw a couple new puzzle pieces into play.

Good stuff.
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Re: Recovered: Plasma cavitation?

Unread postby bboyer » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:14 pm

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 9:20 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "lite-brite"

More cavitation links:
http://www.quantavolution.org/vol_05/so ... ria_02.htm

How close does this match the core EU idea?
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Re: Recovered: Plasma cavitation?

Unread postby bboyer » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:16 pm

Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 10:47 am Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "arc-us"

lite-brite wrote:More cavitation links:
http://www.quantavolution.org/vol_05/so ... ria_02.htm

How close does this match the core EU idea?


I haven't had a chance to check out the other references yet, but read Solaria Binaria a few years ago. I think it has a lot of merit. Looking at the idea of cavitation now, I have a hunch that this may well be the corollary to the concept of positive anode stars and not the mathematical concept of "black holes" and "dark matter."

And now that it crosses my mind, maybe this is, indeed, what is at the heart of every galaxy, betwixt the arms of spiral galaxies, at the center of every star, every planet, and every other spatial body that has mass and visible presence. What if cavitation as a concept, like plasma, is also scalable? Hmmm.

Then again I could just be talking through my hat. But it's something I think I'll keep on the back burner when I get a chance to explore more deeply into the notion of cavitation.

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Arc-us
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Re: Recovered: Plasma cavitation?

Unread postby bboyer » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:17 pm

Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 8:30 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "lite-brite"

Isn't this the place to talk through your hat?

The scaleable part is very central to this question. Just as the prop cavitates the water and the jet fighter cavitates the air, my question is if stellar bodies cavitate the plasma.

Not only that, are there intersections or focal points in the plasma that are excited into a similar collapsing phenomena?

This has noting to do with "black holes" but the discussion of energy released (or phenomena) when a medium is seperated from itself.
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Re: Recovered: Plasma cavitation?

Unread postby bboyer » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:20 pm

Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 12:32 pm Post subject: A Related Thread Reply with quote
OP "lk"

Following is part of a thread relevant to cavitation.
On upriver's thread, called What really has to be proven, on Fri May 25, 2007 5:33 am, upriver wrote:
.This is more speculation that anything. (' :roll: ') I call it that to be safe although I have done alot to come to this conclusion.
.But, a complete model of the universe is really required to fully elucidate the EU model.
.In my travels I have waded through as many alternative theories and ideas as possible, and have boiled what I have learned into its essence as far out as it may be. This is driven the pursuit of knowledge.
.For the foundation of the physical universe; Aethrometry. http://www.aetherometry.com/
http://www.encyclopedianomadica.org/bin ... therometry
.Our sun is a hollow iron sun. The solar wind is generated by thermionic emission. It is electrically powered with longitudinal waves.
http://www.encyclopedianomadica.org/bin ... try/Photon
.Blackholes, neutron stars and other hi mass hypothesis are non existent.
Gravity and Aetherometery.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepage ... ergrav.htm
.A couple of devices back up the Aetherometry theory of gravity.
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory: ... cillations
Which allows an iron sun to exist in the context of the EU.


On Fri May 25, 2007 7:50 pm mgmirkin replied:
.I just had an odd thought re the "hollow iron sun" thing. I don't know whether I'm convinced that a hollow ball in space is possible... But, I was just thinking that I'd read about "spherules" on mars, and the moon, and even stuff like Moqui Marbles in SW USA. And I seem to recall that a number of specimens were fond to be HOLLOW or to enclose a different material, like hematite enclosing sandstone, or pressurized oil, or various other things (spherule inside a hollow ball, etc.).
.So, I'm wondering if in some cases the z-pinch process, which some have hypothesized as the source of spherule production, would still prefer a "hollow shell" formation on the large scale as well? IE, if a star was formed by z-pinch, is it possible that a similar iron shell could be created in the process of collapsing a molecular cloud, or in electrical expulsion/parturition from another body?
.Just an odd question that came to mind at the mention of a "hollow sphere" or a "shell"...
~Michael
P.S. Was thinking of the following TPOD(s)
http://thunderbolts.info/tpod/2005/arch ... erries.htm
http://thunderbolts.info/tpod/2004/arch/040827mars.htm
http://thunderbolts.info/tpod/2005/arch ... erries.htm


On Fri May 25, 2007 9:24 pm Pfhoenix replied:
.They're not the same phenomena. In space, density of the current in the birkeland current in the galactic arms is enough to pinch together plasma into more localized areas, which would encourage the increasingly pinched area to form a double layer around itself, which turns the pinched plasma from just an effect to a load on the circuit.
.In EDM, spherules are produced by the process of excavating material - the excavated material is fused together and melted, the intense heat involves changes the chemical properties of the material involved. While the spherules could be said to be "pinched together", the actual result is material lifted from the machined surface and then "glued" back together by the current doing the machining.


On Sat May 26, 2007 2:33 am mgmirkin replied:
.As I was re-reading the TPODs and a few other links, it also noted that the spherules sometimes appeared to be "layered" (like an onion). I also recall that some have suggested that stars and possibly even the sun are "mass separated" (like an onion). So I guess that also seemed like a tenuous parallel... Wasn't sure, again, if a similar process was at work, if both have an electrical origin...
.However, if we're sure they're NOT the same process...? That's fine too. No worries. :o ) Appreciate the input!
~Michael


Sun May 27, 2007 2:21 am upriver replied:
.I have hypothesized that pulsars are Marklund convection separator/ iron sphere pump.
.In other words, the continuous pulsing action of the pulsar pumps iron to the center and lighter elements to the outside. Eventually there is enough to form an iron sun and it is ejected. As our sun is traveling away from the Vela Pulsar.
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Re: Recovered: Plasma cavitation?

Unread postby bboyer » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:21 pm

Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 1:08 pm Post subject: Hollow = Cavity Reply with quote
OP "lk"

.A hollow sun, or hollow anything, sounds like cavitation to me.
.Pfhoenix said that the plasma pinch in space that forms stars and maybe planets is not the same as EDM [electrical discharge machining?] which can form small spheres that may be hollow or layered.
.I'm inclined to think they are nearly the same thing, but with a smaller temperature or electromotive force, too small to produce fusion of elements.
.If I'm wrong, please explain.
.I'll do a separate post on upriver's last statement.
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Re: Recovered: Plasma cavitation?

Unread postby bboyer » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:22 pm

Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 1:13 pm Post subject: Marklund Convection Reply with quote
OP "lk"

Here's a good description of Marklund convection in Wikipedia as discussed by upriver [with a reference by our own Ian Tresman at the end]:
.Marklund convection (after Göran Marklund) is a natural plasma convection process that takes place in filamentary currents, that may cause chemical separation. It may occur within a plasma with an associated electric field, that causes convection of ions and electrons inward towards a central twisting filamentary axis. A temperature gradient within the plasma will also cause chemical separation based on different ionization potentials.[1]
.The mechanism provides an efficient means to accumulate matter within a plasma,[2]. In a partially ionized plasma, electromagnetic forces act on the non-ionized material indirectly through the viscosity between the ionized and non-ionized material.
.Alfvén writes that:
".. elements with the lowest ionization potential are brought closest to the axis, and form concentric hollow cylinders whose radii increase with ionization potential [..] The drift of ionized matter from the surroundings into the rope means that the rope acts as an ion pump, which evacuates the surroundings . Regions with extremely low densities can be produced in this way ."[3]
.Marlund clarifies:
In my paper in Nature the plasma convects radially inwards, with the normal E x B//B/2 velocity, towards the center of a cylindrical flux tube. During this convection inwards, the different chemical constituents of the plasma, each having its specific ionization potential, enter into a progressively cooler region. The plasma constituents will recombine and become neutral, and thus no longer under the influence of the electromagnetic forcing. The ionization potentials will thus determine where the different species will be deposited, or stopped in their motion."[4]
.Footnotes
1. ^ Marklund, G. T., "Plasma convection in force-free magnetic fields as a mechanism for chemical separation in cosmical plasma", Nature, vol. 277, Feb. 1, 1979, p. 370, 371
2. ^ Anthony L. Peratt, Physics of the Plasma Universe, Chapter 4, Electric Fields in Cosmic Plasma, Section 4.6.3. "Marklund Convection And Separation Of Elements" (1992) Springer-Verlag
3. ^ Hannes Alfvén, "Sec. II.4.5 Theory of Magnetic Ropes" Cosmic Plasma (1981)
4. ^ Email correspondence with Ian Tresman, 8 Mar 2007
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Re: Recovered: Plasma cavitation?

Unread postby bboyer » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:22 pm

Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 2:04 pm Post subject: Filaments to Spheres Reply with quote
OP "lk"

.That description of Marklund convection seems very interesting; I think I read Thornhill describing that once. It seems to explain quite a lot of things.
.It describes formation of concentric hollow tubes. Thornhill's CD has a clip in which a discharge in sand produces a wire-like strand of fused sand. It descrbes similar, but much larger strands that are hollow tubes up to 9 feet long caused by lightning. The tubes are wider at one end, while the other end narrows. Lightning may be too brief or too small-scale to produce concentric tubes.
.Somehow, this would seem to lead to formation of hollow spheres. How can hollow tubes be changed into hollow spheres? I suppose the plasma pinch, or z-pinch, might do it. It seems that it would be like tying string around a length of sausage to make a link. But then there'd need to be a second pinch, wouldn't there?
.The material in the plasma current would probably be moving rapidly, so maybe a pinch would cause a blob of liquid to rotate into a ball. But then I don't know that the hollow interior would remain.
.The description of evacuating the surrounding space means that wherever star systems form, the surrounding are of much lower density than before the systems formed. The same may apply to intergalactic space. [Stars in the galactic nucleus are packed together I think 1200 times closer than in the galactic disk where we are. Here the average distance is 4.2 lightyears between stars, so there it must be 20 billion miles, which is 4.5 times the distance to Pluto.]
.The density of interstellar space is much greater than intergalactic space, but there are streams of intergalactic space that have a small density and other areas that have almost no density at all. So I'm wondering if the universe started with uniform density and then was gradually clumped into stars and galaxies by these electrical forces that sucked matter out of the areas that are now nearly void of matter.
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Re: Recovered: Plasma cavitation?

Unread postby bboyer » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:23 pm

Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 2:23 pm Post subject: Calculate Reply with quote
OP "lk"

.We could calculate the whole mass of the visible universe and divide by the volume to determine what the density may have been initially. I was recently reading someone's estimate of the mass of the universe. They said that a recent estimate from Hubble telescope data suggests that there are I think 125 billion galaxies that are visible. The average galaxy may have 100 to 500 billion sun-size stars each.
.Then we come to a couple problems. Conventional astronomy says the known universe is about 15 billion lightyears in radius. But Arp et al would probably say it's only a billion or so lightyears. Conventional astronomy estimates the sun to have about the density of water, but if electrical forces mask some of the mass, then it may be denser. Thornhill also stated that we don't really know the diameter of the sun, except for its maximum diameter. But some of the iron sun theory people say that recent observations inside sunspots have determined that the sun's diameter is just a little less than that of the photosphere.
.Anyone want to make some tentative calculations? The universe would apparently have still been not much denser than local interstellar space.
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Re: Recovered: Plasma cavitation?

Unread postby bboyer » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:23 pm

Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 3:26 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "Pfhoenix"

One big problem - cavitation is a mechanical phenomena. Plasma is dominated (dominated nearly completely) by electromagnetism.
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Re: Recovered: Plasma cavitation?

Unread postby bboyer » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:24 pm

Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 2:23 am Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "Mo"

When a star splits in half, is there a current that flows
through the middle of the star ? And thus if there was
a planet formed between the two new bodies, would
that current pass through the middle of this new planet ?
In which case the new planet could be hollow.

Mo
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Re: Recovered: Plasma cavitation?

Unread postby bboyer » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:25 pm

Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:16 am Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "Krackonis"

Mo wrote:When a star splits in half, is there a current that flows
through the middle of the star ? And thus if there was
a planet formed between the two new bodies, would
that current pass through the middle of this new planet ?
In which case the new planet could be hollow.

Mo


Given that Geodes and concretions CAN be hollow, then I suspect a PLANET/STAR/CELESTIAL BODY could be hollow. However, if geodes are noteworthy, then you will find that they have totally different semi srystaline structures on the inside. Given that, it's likely that "hollow" might be "hollow near the center" but the crust/lithosphere would be incredibly thick.

And Stars would not split in half, it would likely shoot out a streamer of "core material" that is of a different charge than its surface material. This material (mass ejection) would pile up at a certain altitude and be pinched into a sphere... Likely many other "globules" would also harden into planetlike objects and would begin to orbit the old or new sun.

The sand and dirt would then settle down from the plasma displays and coat the new planets with dust.

As to what would happen if a planet orbited between them? Well I'm unsure, but I would not doubt that a planet that got caught between two arcing/novaing stars would be blasted to hell. But that's just a guess. It would not have the surface area to deal with the current. (imho) ;)
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