Cardona Interview on Saturn Theory

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: Cardona Interview on Saturn Theory

Unread postby Lloyd » Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:53 pm

LLOYD:
I assume that the tsunamis that occurred with each proto-Saturn flare-up did not flood the entire land surface, or most land animals would have become extinct. Have you considered what land areas on Earth were usually safe from tsunamis? ]


REPLY:
Too difficult now to tell. At least for me it is. It can, however, be said that the centre of continents, as well as highlands, would have been safe from the main encroaching waves. Most eastern seacoasts would also have been safe from the inception of the waves, but would have suffered from rebound buffeting. It's all so complex—and it's not something I have time to go into.

LLOYD:
Do you think the last great flood, Noah's Flood, occurred between 4,500 and 5,000 years ago during Saturn's last flare-up?


REPLY:
The date is approximately right.

LLOYD:
Was it caused in the same way as previous flare-up tsunamis?


REPLY:
No.

LLOYD:
Did Saturn's last flare-up at the time of the “Great Flood” put the brakes on Earth's rotation and cause the flood as a tsunami? If so, did humans leave records of the Earth’s rotation slowing down or stopping at that time? What are the best ancient myths or ancient documents that recorded the last Great Flood?


REPLY:
I'd rather not comment on Noah's flood right now, since there were quite a few events that preceded it which I have yet to set on paper.

LLOYD:
I was surprised that you said the Sun was always visible ever since the Saturn System penetrated the Sun's heliosphere, about 10,000 (?) years ago. I thought that ancient myths did not make reference to the Sun at all.


REPLY:
You have to understand EXACTLY what I've been saying, which is why it's best to refer to the books in which I have supplied detailed information. But, to clarify matters—yes, the ancients were persistent in their reports that, originally, the Sun was absent from the sky. But that was during the proto-Saturnian system's travel outside the Solar System. I will not say that the Sun became visible immediately when proto-Saturn and its retinue penetrated the Sun's heliosphere, but it began to appear as a small star not long after that.

LLOYD:
What was the Sun called in ancient myths or other ancient writings? Was the Sun clearly visible? Or was it distorted or hazy or anything like that? Was the Sun ever considered to be a god? If so, when was the first time, that's known?


REPLY:
These are questions that relate to my forthcoming works concerning which I am not yet willing to comment since anything I say in brief will sound too fantastic to be believed by anyone.

LLOYD:
You said earlier that proto-Saturn moved through space in a poleward direction and that it had a bipolar jet. So the jets were shooting out vertically from each pole. Is that right?


REPLY:
Not that ancient man would have been able to tell this, but yes, that is the way bipolar jets form.

LLOYD:
Do you have any idea which of proto-Saturn's poles was in front and which was behind?


REPLY:
As I pointed out in FLARE STAR, proto-Saturn was "leading" Earth. In other words, it was proto-Saturn's north pole that was "in front."

LLOYD:
Does it seem to be possible for satellites of a brown dwarf primary like proto-Saturn to be in the lead of the primary while moving through space? Do you think proto-Saturn’s satellites were in both jets, in front and behind? Do you think the polar column would do more damage to a trailing satellite, than to a leading one? Would proto-Saturn's plasmasphere have protected any satellites in a leading jet?


REPLY:
Good questions, all of them. I wish I had good answers to supply for them.

LLOYD:
What protection did the plasmasphere provide to the satellites? Warmth? Shielding from cosmic radiation?


REPLY:
Warmth—yes. But as for cosmic radiation—what type of cosmic radiation? Proto-Saturn would itself have bathed Earth with its own radiative energy during its flare-ups, which radiation was the cause of much havoc, including the extinction of species, evolution through mutation, and lesser epidemics which even touched our ancient ancestors. In these cases, proto-Saturn's plasmasphere was anything but beneficial since it tended to reflect most of this radiation back to Earth.

LLOYD:
You said you know of no evidence that humans had a fear of doomsday before the Golden Age of Saturn. Is that because humans did not have language until the Golden Age?


REPLY:
Who said they had no language before the Golden Age?

LLOYD:
If they had had language during earlier flare-ups, they would have propagated a fear of doomsday, at least by oral tradition, wouldn't they?


REPLY:
But man was not yet around at the time of proto-Saturn's flare-ups previous to the one that transpired some 10,000 years ago. These previous flare-ups have been proposed on astrophysical, and not mytho-historical, evidence.

LLOYD:
Did the Golden Age last from about 10,000 to 5,000 years ago?


REPLY:
More or less—as long as it remains understood that these are only approximations based on what can best be called a benchmark figure.

LLOYD:
When did humans develop the capacity for speech?


REPLY:
I have no idea.

LLOYD:
What do you think was the main inspiration for humans to develop language?


REPLY:
Hunger.

LLOYD:
Was Saturn or the polar column a major inspiration?


REPLY:
For human speech? No.

LLOYD:
Where did most humans dwell during the Golden Age and why?


REPLY:
Mainly in the northern hemisphere to be closer to what they recognized as their main source of direct heat and light.

Dwardu
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Re: Cardona Interview on Saturn Theory

Unread postby Lloyd » Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:04 pm

Lloyd's EU Theory of Earth
* On Feb 18, 2009 I wrote the following summary of my best guesses about Earth's geology, which I'll compare with my best guesses now, based on Dwardu's interview and other things. I'll intersperse my present guesses here in blue.
- Feb 18, 2009
Earth Formation
- Earth is a Geode formed in an electrical Z-pinch. Geodes, Concretions, Tektites, Balls in Craters and Blueberries are formed the same way. Geodes usually have several layers, with the densest layers toward the center, although the center may be hollow or filled with fluid under pressure. Earth's layers appear to be Core, Mantle, Lithosphere, and Crust.
[This still seems likely, but our Earth-geode may be hollow at the core. Allyn provided a good link on that at another thread some months ago.]
- The Seafloors are mostly Basalt, about 3 miles thick, which cooled and solidified slowly, so the grains are microscopic. The Continents are mostly Granite, which is identical to Basalt, except the grains are larger, indicating that Granite cooled and solidified quickly. Gentry's radio-halo Inclusions in Granite, with parentless Po, also indicate quick solidification of the Granite Continents. It seems likely that Granite should initially have covered the entire Earth, because the outer layer would have been exposed to colder temperature, where solidification/crystallization would occur rapidly.
- Sedimentary Rock is layered Rock that covers 75% of Earth's continental surface from 2 to 6 miles deep. Sedimentary Rock was laid down by electrical deposition. 10-15% of Sedimentary Rock is Limestone. Limestone under the Bahamas is 3 miles deep. Limestone consists of Calcium etc, apparently from Seawater. Shale is common Sedimentary Rock made from Clay Soil. Sandstone is the third type and it is made from Sand, which is mostly silicon dioxide, SiO2.
[Note: 1/2/2011: Nick reminded us months or longer ago that Juergens thought granite was produced by the electrical breakdown of sedimentary rock. If granite is nearly the same as basalt, then basalt may also have been made by electrical breakdown of sedimentary rock. Sediments apparently would have come from proto-Saturn flare-ups.]
Continental Drift
- EDM removed most of Earth's Granite Crust from the Pacific Ocean Basin. Some of this was deposited on the Continents as Sedimentary Rock. The rest was likely thrown into space. The Pacific Ocean Ridge was formed in the process. Then a large meteorite and megalightning struck the Somali Basin and split the Supercontintent into Continents and Islands and drove them apart. The electrified fluid Moho Layer allowed them to slide for a few thousand miles. The Atlantic Ocean Ridge formed when the Americas split off from Africa and Eurasia. Mountains were built up mostly from horizontal compression from the initial outward motion of the Continents from the "impact" site and then from the friction that took hold as they slowed down, especially encountering the Pacific Ocean Ridge and Siberia. Electrical forces then modified the appearance of the mountain ranges.
[I now think Dwardu may be right that proto-Saturn flare-ups caused seafloor spreading by temporarily stopping Earth's rotation, allowing the continents to slide by momentum. But I think "impacts" may have been involved as well in the continents' sliding.]
Floods
- The Great Flood occurred after the Continents stopped sliding, when the Plasma Column at the North Pole was separated from Saturn.
[There were great floods, or tsunamis, during each of the many periodic proto-Saturn flare-ups.]
Soil
- Soils are Loam, Clay, Sand and Loess. Clay and Sand form by EDM pulverizing Rock. Loam forms from organic matter combining with other Soil. Loess is Soil deposited by wind. California Loam washed out of the Granite Sierra Nevada Mouintains. Plants and bacteria transform Lava and Magma into Loam.
[Much of that seems correct, but the original sediments came from proto-Saturn's flare-ups.]
Fossils
- Fossils occur almost exclusively in Sedimentary Rock, but also in Muck (mostly frozen), such as in Alaska and Siberia. Fossils formed mostly by electrification and were soon covered by electrical deposition of Sedimentary Layers. Some animals and plants were buried during the Great Flood, when many layers of Sediment covered them before electrification. In Ohio is a large area where sharks were fossilized. The Fossils are mostly in swimming positions, so the animals were trying to swim in wet mud, when they were covered by more Sediment, which became thick and heavy enough to hold the sharks in their swimming positions after they died. The overburden of Sediments was so heavy, that the sharks were flattened to about a quarter of an inch thick before the Sediments were electrically solidified.
[This still seems plausible, but I'll have to ask Dwardu for comments. I don't think he considers fossilization to be an electrical process, but I still do.]
Other Electrical Effects
- Seamounts and some Mountains are fulgamites [raised up by megalightning]. Magma, Lava and Flood Basalt are formed by electrical fluidization. Craters are formed by vertical, brief EDM. Shattercones in Craters are made by lightning sonic booms. Many River Valleys and Tributaries, as well as many Caverns and Gouge Patterns in Mountain Ranges, were formed by horizontal EDM.
[These still seem correct to me, but Dwardu seems to think electrical forces can't do all those things.]
- Addendum on Trango Tower as electric uplift. Steve Smith said here:
http://thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1398
""Zane Parker recently reminded me that his CRT experiments produce "towers":"
http://members.cybertrails.com/~zrwoaz/peaks-16.46.jpg
[Here's a close-up of the previous image:]
http://members.cybertrails.com/~zrwoaz/peaks-16.46s++.jpg
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Re: Cardona Interview on Saturn Theory

Unread postby Lloyd » Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:21 pm

LLOYD: The following are notes from Dwardu’s book, God Star, with some notes followed by my questions. Numbers refer to page numbers of the book.
20 The ancients observed the Saturn System in Earth's former sky and they described what they observed, but in rather anthropomorphic terms, so they didn't comprehend what they were observing.
[/color]
CARDONA:
How could they have? What did they know about astronomy?
LLOYD:
> After the Saturn System breakup their progeny didn't well comprehend their elders' descriptions of the scenes in the former sky and their confusion is apparent in many of the ancient myths. Only after thousands of years with the recent development of more holistic science and comparative mythology have moderns finally now begun to understand what the ancients saw and to clear away the confusion.

CARDONA:
More or less—yes.
LLOYD:
25 Ancient depictions of the Sun in a circle were actually of Saturn. And the depictions show that Saturn was green. I don't think I'd heard that before. I thought it was originally seen to be maroon and later yellow. Did it appear green before it became yellow? Or did it change color often, such as at different stages of its movement toward or away from plasmaspheres?

CARDONA:
As is actually indicated in the book itself, to say nothing of its cover, proto-Saturn seems to have originally appeared as having been reddish. But, yes, it did go through a change of color once it commenced on its series of visual changes following its major flare-up. The color green was introduced early on in order to stress that the Egyptian Ra could not have originated as a solar deity. One thing to keep in mind is that GOD STAR, the first volume of the STAR series, serves to lay down the basics for what follows. The actual series of events do not start to unfold in their proper chronological sequence until the second volume, i.e., FLARE STAR.
LLOYD:
28 The bible is a composite of myths from various peoples. Do you or does anyone seem to know which peoples, or where they lived?

CARDONA:
They were definitely a Semitic-speaking people who trekked down from an unknown northern land and ended up separating and forming various related nations, among whom were the later Hebrews and Canaanites (Phoenicians). It's a long and complex history.
LLOYD:
29 Myths are based on anciently observed events, and comparative mythology is reliably finding roughly what those events were.

CARDONA:
Yes.
LLOYD:
72 The Phaethon myth was based on periodic widespread conflagrations on Earth. Those conflagrations occurred during proto-Saturn's flare-ups; didn't they?

CARDONA:
The Phaethon myth belongs much later in time and refers to the cosmic tribulations that took place during the proto-Saturnian system's break-up [5,000 years ago, I think - LK].
LLOYD:
73 Astronomers are finally starting to come aboard the catastrophism bandwagon.
75 Three events got astronomers interested in catastrophism: the 1908 Tunguska event; the 1980 Alvarez theory on the demise of the dinosaurs by a major impact event; and the 1994 comet SL9 crash into Jupiter.

CARDONA:
Yes.
LLOYD:
113 The Babylonians were amazingly highly advanced in astronomy.

CARDONA:
That is OBSERVATIONAL astronomy. But they were not the only ones. Once the sky settled into peaceful balance, ancient nations kept watch on the heavens in order to detect early warning signs of impending celestial catastrophes. It was no different than stationing guards atop their city walls to watch out for sneaky invaders. After something like five thousand years, we have just about come to a similar situation—what with our better knowledge of close orbiting asteroids, planetary impacting comets, and an unpredictable violent Sun.
LLOYD:
117 Some constellations were already named 6000 years ago.

CARDONA:
While absolute dates are still up in air, make that closer to 5,000 years ago.
LLOYD:
Nabonassar of the 730s BC destroyed older astronomical records.

CARDONA:
Yes.
LLOYD:
119 The Babylonians called Saturn the most prominent object in the sky.

CARDONA:
They referred to it as such, but only as it had been in the past. Nor were they the only ones. But by Baylonian times, Saturn was already being referred to as a "dead sun"—their words, not mine.
LLOYD:
120 Siculus reported this in the first century BC. In Sanskrit Saturn was called the chief planet.

CARDONA:
It was referred to as the chief planet by EVERY ancient nation
LLOYD:
176 The first Saturn Theory was by Reichenbach in 1884, who also proposed continental drift and that Earth had been a moon of Saturn. Do you know where he got that idea from?

CARDONA:
As far as I am aware of, it is unfortunately no longer on record.
LLOYD:
177 Saturn occupied a larger part of the sky than the moon does now. I calculate that, if Saturn were its present size and occupied the same amount of the sky as our present moon, it would have been about 9 million miles from Earth. If its diameter didn't change much after each flare-up, and if it occupied ten times as much of a meridian of the sky as the moon's diameter now does, it would have been about 900,000 miles from Earth.

CARDONA:
That's one of the problems because proto-Saturn did change in size at each and every flare-up.
LLOYD:
If it occupied 100 times the moon's present portion of a sky meridian, Saturn would have been 90,000 miles from Earth. What's the maximum portion of Earth's sky that Saturn could have occupied, according to descriptions in myths? Was Saturn's albedo or brightness greater during the Golden Age than the moon's albedo is now?

CARDONA:
I have no idea.
LLOYD:
186 Van Flandern said all of Mars' and Jupiter's moons were captured by them recently. Do you agree?

CARDONA:
Yes.
LLOYD:
All the gas giants have rings. Are all those rings remnants of circumstellar disks?

CARDONA:
I'll get to that in a subsequent volume.
LLOYD:
Were the gas giants all brown dwarfs? Did they all have flare-ups and eject moons?

CARDONA:
Too difficult to tell for sure without an in-depth study of each and every planet. But I would say yes to both those questions.
LLOYD:
187 Is Chiron considered to be a planet?

CARDONA:
Only by some.
LLOYD:
198 Imhotep was a god of Egypt. Though that's believable, it surprised me, because I'd only read that he was considered to be the architect of the Great Pyramid.

CARDONA:
You're not the first to be confused by this. It's just that the builder was thought of so highly that he was elevated to the stature of a god. It was not, however, the Great Pyramid that he is known to have built, but that of King Djoser, which, despite it having being stepped, was actually the very first of the Egyptian pyramids to be successfully erected.
Dwardu
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Re: Cardona Interview on Saturn Theory

Unread postby Lloyd » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:24 pm

YOUNGER DRYAS, AIRBURSTS, IMPACTS, SATURN FLARES
* I just read what Dac discussed in 09 about the Younger Dryas Event and evidence of airbursts etc.
* According to Dwardu Cardona's research, the Younger Dryas event occurred about 10,000 years ago, give or take a few thousand years. And Dac quoted Firestone as saying it occurred 12,900 years ago. Dwardu said Earth was likely close to Saturn then, and Saturn had its last major flare at that time. The flare was likely caused by Saturn entering an area in space with a stronger electric current than normal.
* Saturn's periodic flares ejected a lot of matter, some of which rained down on Earth in the form of "detritus". The detritus ended up forming rock strata, coal and petroleum on Earth, but I just realized lately that the detritus probably included large meteors as well.
* Dac mentioned in 09 evidence of airblasts, esp. the one that melted glaciers in Canada and left behind melted surface rocks and a carbon-rich black layer, formerly molten, which may have ended the Clovis culture and megafauna. I'll try to learn more about that.
* Dwardu says the Younger Dryas event was global and I guess a lot of impacts occurred, as well as a buildup of detritus and rains of petroleum etc. He says tsunamis also helped remove the glaciers. The tsunamis may have been caused by the electrical effect of Saturn's flare suddenly slowing down Earth's rotation, which may have also caused the continents to slide apart on the Moho layer.
* So the black, carbon-rich melt that you mentioned that came from a cometary airburst over Canada apparently came from Saturn's flare. The increased electric current that triggered Saturn's flare would likely have made impactors more electrified than normal.
* So my guess is that impacts that occurred at times of flares would likely have caused a lot of electrical effects. Most impact effects may have been kinetic, but a lot of secondary electrical effects seem likely too. The atmosphere may have dampened electrical effects on Earth etc, so on bodies with less atmosphere, electrical effects on impacts may have outweighed kinetic ones. Where small moons and asteroids have very large craters, it seems likely that kinetic forces would have demolished them, but electrical forces would not. Electrical effects seem pronounced on Venus, despite its thick atmosphere, but that may be because Venus is a young planet, ejected from Saturn [or Jupiter etc] a few thousand years ago. Many of Venus' features likely formed via E.D. while it was leaving, but still very close to, its parent planet.
* Dwardu says the event about 10,000 years ago occurred during Saturn's last flare, but that another catastrophic event occurred about 5,000 years ago, which changed Earth's, Saturn's and other orbits. That event caused flooding etc, but I think no flare detritus and not so many impacts. Saturn is likely no longer subject to flaring, so that's no longer a danger. Now we just have to worry about rogue asteroids, comets etc.
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Re: Cardona Interview on Saturn Theory

Unread postby StevenJay » Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:17 pm

I've really been getting a lot out of this thread, Lloyd. Thanks for posting this stuff - it's helping me with some visualization difficulties I've had for a long time regarding various aspects of the Saturn event(s). :)
It's all about perception.
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Re: Cardona Interview on Saturn Theory

Unread postby Aveo9 » Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:42 am

Thanks so much for this thread, and thanks to Cardona for taking the time to reply :D

One thing that's bugging me - what evidence is there for the Sagittarius galaxy? This is the first I've ever heard of it.
"If opposite poles attracted each other, they would be together in the middle of a magnet instead of at its ends"
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Re: Cardona Interview on Saturn Theory

Unread postby nick c » Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:24 am

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Re: Cardona Interview on Saturn Theory

Unread postby Aveo9 » Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:19 pm

Thanks :D
"If opposite poles attracted each other, they would be together in the middle of a magnet instead of at its ends"
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Re: Cardona Interview on Saturn Theory

Unread postby Lloyd » Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:24 pm

More from God Star
* Here are more of my notes on most interesting statements in God Star with page numbers at front and some of my questions. Dwardu has been too busy to answer me lately, it seems.

254 Christopher Columbus said in 1500 that the Earth has a bulge.
LLOYD: Did he say it was at the pole? Where did he get the idea?

255 Arctic muck covers one seventh of Earth's land surface.
LLOYD: I guess that's about 10 million square miles, mostly in Siberia, Canada, Alaska and maybe Greenland and northern Scandinavia?
256 The muck is over 4000 feet deep in places.
LLOYD: Can't radar or sonar determine the exact depths? Did the muck come from proto-Saturn's flare-up detritus or from the Polar Column?

258 Phobos produces a tidal bulge on Mars. Tides on Earth cannot be predicted by computation, but only from records.
LLOYD: Does the Phobos-caused tide on Mars fracture Mars's surface rock layers?

321 Maillet in the early 1700s first claimed that Earth had a different Sun before the Great Flood, based on the bible.
LLOYD: Do you know which passages he read that in?
322 Velikovsky said in 1950 that a dark star could invade the Solar System.
LLOYD: Was he thinking of Saturn as the dark star?
323 Ralph Juergens first proposed in SIS Review in 1977 that the Saturn System, including Earth, originated outside the Solar System and collided with it.

326 The first extrasolar planet was discovered in 1936 and Firsoff reported 10 such planets in 1967.

328 Scientists began to favor catastrophist models of Solar System formation in the late 1990s after SL9.

336 Firsoff said starless planets could have larger atmospheres and life. Proto-Saturn was larger than it is now.
LLOYD: Was it over 10% larger?

339 Some Native American tribes remember when the Sun was first seen to be no bigger than a star and it was behind a mask.
LLOYD: What was the mask?
340 If the Sun appeared as a 3rd or 4th magnitude star, as an example, the Sun would have been 10 lightyears away from Earth. The Sun first appeared after the Age of Darkness.

341 The wavelength of Saturn's plasmasphere changed, ending its opacity, when it touched the Sun's heliosphere. LLOYD: What wavelengths did it have before and after? Or what color? What color or wavelength makes it transparent? If Saturn's plasmasphere became transparent, did the stars become visible at that time?

345 Wal mistakenly expected that Saturn's polar column could not have been primordial.

346 Juenemann said Earth could have been about the size of Neptune with its thick cloud cover.
LLOYD: Can radar detect the solid or liquid surfaces of gas giants? Could Earth have been a "gas giant"? How recently could Earth have had a much thicker atmosphere? Someone said a denser atmosphere on Earth would have made nitrogen act like a narcotic. Would it have made the ancients hallucinate? Would it have prevented them from being rational?

347 Berner said Earth's atmosphere was 35% oxygen during the Carboniferous, the highest percentage it ever had.

345 Croswell said temperature extremes on a brown dwarf's satellite could be avoided if the satellite has a thick atmosphere.
348 15% of Earth's present atmospheric mass would be enough to prevent freezing on the dark side of a brown dwarf's satellite.374,6,7 Devonian and Carboniferous trees had few tree rings. Permian trees had few rings in the north, but wide rings in the south. Most tropical trees and some trees in other climates do not grow rings today.
LLOYD: So tree rings don't necessarily reflect seasons?
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Re: Cardona Interview on Saturn Theory

Unread postby mharratsc » Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:00 pm

Hey Lloyd, question- in regards to:

So, if the arm had a hand pointing inward toward the galactic nucleus, the Sun, and presumably all star systems would be revolving around the wrist, so their orbits would be like bracelets around the wrist and arm.


Would that be Lorentz force acting on stars in a particular arm of the galaxy, as part of the equatorial current sheet?

Does the rotation match the description, do you know?

Thanks!
Mike H.

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Re: Cardona Interview on Saturn Theory

Unread postby Lloyd » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:49 am

On page 1 of this thread I said to Dwardu: You said: "It does not seem that the proto-Saturnian system was in orbit around anything while it was traveling through space. Stars, dwarf and otherwise, are now known to travel alone. More than that, they travel in a poleward direction, which eliminates the possibility of orbital motion unless captured by other bodies."
- I think I've heard in TB forum discussions over the last 3 years that the Sun does have an orbit-like motion within the arm of the galaxy and I suppose that motion would be perpendicular to the axis of the galactic arm. So, if the arm had a hand pointing inward toward the galactic nucleus, the Sun, and presumably all star systems would be revolving around the wrist, so their orbits would be like bracelets around the wrist and arm. And I thought proto-Saturn would have had a similar motion, that might have taken it in and out of Birkeland currents, although, if the currents have a helical motion, that makes the concept harder for me to grasp. If my impression is wrong, I hope to find that out soon enough.

Dwardu replied: It gets weirder because proto-Saturn's capture involved the collision of the Milky Way with a foreign galaxy. Orthodoxy is well aware of this collision, the signs of which are still etched across the sky.

Mike asked: Would that be Lorentz force acting on stars in a particular arm of the galaxy, as part of the equatorial current sheet? - Does the rotation match the description, do you know?

* It looks like the Sun's motion does match the description of the Lorentz force motion, since:
A dictionary says: Lorentz force is: the force experienced by a point charge moving along a wire [or current?] that is in a magnetic field; the force is at right angles to both the current and the magnetic field; "the Lorentz force can be used to suspend a current-carrying object between two magnets"

* And here's an illustration of the Sun's motion.
http://www.news.ku.edu/2007/may/18/images/galaxy.jpg
Image
Our solar system, represented by the white dot, moves around the center of the galaxy (like planets around the sun). It also moves up and down around the mid-plane of the galaxy. The mid-plane is shown by the dashed white line. The solid green line represents the up-and-down motion of the solar system as it circumnavigates the galaxy.

* And here are more illustrations.
http://s1.hubimg.com/u/3117412_f496.jpg
http://s3.hubimg.com/u/3117414_f496.jpg
Image
Image
* If you combine these last 2 illustrations, you get the small helical motion in the last image going in a larger helical motion around the galactic arm, as shown in the second last image. The hard part will be figuring out where Saturn came from in the Sagittarius Dwarf Galaxy and which galaxy the Sun was in when Saturn met up with it. Since the event was fairly recent, i.e. 10,000 years ago, it should be less problematic than if it had happened much earlier.
This site http://hubpages.com/hub/The-Cosmology-Climate-Connection-How-Extraterrestrial-Forces-Influence-The-Weather [source of the last 2 images] says: Not only does the Solar system move around the Milky Way galaxy, but also the Milky Way galaxy moves around the center of a super-cluster of 2,500 neighboring galaxies. - And this super-cluster of 2,500 galaxies (including the Milky Way) is hurtling through space towards a point now known as “The Great Attractor”.
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Re: Cardona Interview on Saturn Theory

Unread postby moses » Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:30 pm

If stars are in Birkeland Currents then that might well provide an orbital influence because such currents are helical in shape. Also if stars are more influenced by gravity then there would be a force on a star towards the centre of a galactic arm. This would produce an orbital movement too. Then there is the issue of precession being caused by a curving in the motion of the Solar System which suggests that the Solar System is in orbit around another body. Throw in the oscillation about the galactic plane and the possibility of a small galaxy passing through the Milky Way, then we find that there is plenty of possibilities.
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Re: Cardona Interview on Saturn Theory

Unread postby Lloyd » Sun Feb 13, 2011 10:25 am

* Here are more of my notes on Dwardu's book, God Star.

381 Saturn's axis is tilted about the same as Earth's and it points the same direction as Earth's, toward the North Star. Neither axis has changed since at least the Tertiary.
LLOYD: Did the Saturn System breakup have no effect on the axis orientations? You said low rays from a brown dwarf would not allow flora to thrive. But wouldn't the plasmasphere reflect enough light for flora there? You mentioned the greenhouse property of thicker atmospheres like Earth's former atmosphere. I'm not sure greenhouse is the best word, because there seems to be a great misconception that Venus is hot because of a greenhouse effect, instead of because of its youthfulness. If Mars were given a similarly thick atmosphere and then moved to Venus' orbit, it would not heat up, would it? I think the thick atmosphere would insulate it from the Sun's heat.

382 Uranus' sunlit side has an electric glow. Its north pole, which had been in darkness for forty years, was found to be warmer than the rest of the planet.
LLOYD: Is this because heat was escaping from its north pole? Was the measurement at the cloud tops?

385 Earth could have had a north polar opening, but not likely.
LLOYD: Wouldn't a thick Earth atmosphere have made proto-Saturn hard to see from Earth?

393 Coral reefs grow in narrow zones. The Pago Pago harbor coral reef is about 5,000 years old, an interesting age.
LLOYD: It was recently found that corals grow all over the deep ocean floors, up to at least 500 ft tall.

397 Continental drift over the equatorial bulge could have broken up Pangea.

400 Saturn's magnetic field is aligned with its spin axis within one degree, unlike any other planet.

402 Mars' poles have deposits and two antipodal areas on the equator have similar deposits, suggesting that the poles were there previously, where those equatorial deposits are.

409,11 Dave Talbott's Theory was that Jupiter was behind Saturn in the Saturn Age.
LLOYD: Or Earth could have been between Saturn and Jupiter.

415 No water was detected during the comet SL9's impact on Jupiter.

416,7 SL9 fragmented in 1992 during a close approach to Jupiter. The fragments did not then orbit each other, like asteroid Dactyl orbits the 34 mile long asteroid Ida, but instead moved in single file in a nearly straight line until they hit Jupiter 2 years later.
LLOYD: And that's how the Saturn System probably moved in single file until it broke up within the Solar System?

417,23 Dave Talbott's Theory
433 Sanchoniathon collected various peoples' myths and made a single story from them.
434 In the 3rd century Lactantius used Boreas [wind] as an analogy of the Sanctus Spiritus that impregnated Mary to conceive Jesus.

439 According to Sanskrit literature, Manu, had to perform penance by standing on one leg for 10,000 years.
LLOYD: The one leg was the polar column, so could the duration of the polar column have been 10,000 years? Or was their year equivalent to half of a modern year?

458 Dave Talbott first considered the polar column to be a luminous stream of falling debris, but that would have left a lot of detritus in the Arctic. Juenemann considered the column to be a tornado of air and water vapor.

459 Luminous blueish & greenish tinted tornadoes have been observed.
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Re: Cardona Interview on Saturn Theory

Unread postby Lloyd » Sun Feb 13, 2011 10:42 am

461 Wal considered the polar column to have been formed by a polar jet, i.e. a constant electric discharge.

462 The so-called Snake found near the galactic center in 1991 is a vast lightning bolt.

464 The magnetospheres of Solar System planets are dark current mode plasma.
LLOYD: How's that different from plasmaspheres?

465 Proto-Saturn's polar ray, or column, probably lost some of its potential by the time humans evolved.
LLOYD: Do you mean electric potential?

466 The Arctic Ocean contains four depressions holding large volumes of sediment. If the sediment were deposited by tidal waves, other depressions, like Hudson's Bay and the Black, Caspian and Baltic Seas, should also have filled with sediment. The Eurasian Basin of the Arctic Ocean was caused by a tidal bulge of subcrustal magma and a collapse of the crust.
LLOYD: Why didn't the magma pile up on the ocean floor and fill the Arctic Ocean?
A swirling vortex of magma was detected 3,000 km under the North Pole.

468 The disk of a 10,000 year old star is disappearing and will be gone in about 100 years. 30 young brown dwarf stars were found at Rho Ophiuchi.
LLOYD: And the rapidly disappearing disk disproves the Nebular Hypothesis?

469-71 90% of young stars in the Orion nebula have so-called accretion disks, which evaporate away in a few hundred thousand years, leaving little or no time for planets to coalesce. These planetary nebulae only exist for a thousand years. McCrea and Lyttleton separately calculated in 1960 that planets could not have coalesced between Jupiter and the Sun. Joshua Roth said planet formation by accretion would take many millions of years, but disks have much shorter lifetimes.

471-6 Many brown dwarfs appear to be loners, but some were found orbiting other stars. Many brown dwarfs are too massive to have formed from circumstellar disks. In 1993 Van Flandern suggested that planets and smaller stars are ejected from fast rotating parent stars and some gas giants. Arp, Alfven & Peratt considered small galaxies to be formed by ejection from large galaxies. In plasma, vortex filaments form and grow progressively larger by gathering matter. With increasing mass, they are shaped into galaxies by electric and magnetic fields and by gravity of the increasing mass. Thornhill explained that ejection will be polar or equatorial from the parent body, depending on which magnetic field is stronger.

476-7 Conventional astronomers have considered that brown dwarfs may be able to spawn planetary systems. Brown dwarfs have been found to emit intense flares, like the Sun.
LLOYD: Wouldn't Saturn's flares have been much stronger than solar flares, if it ejected so much detritus periodically?

478 Brown dwarfs were found to have disks in 2001. Matter falling onto circumstellar disks are considered to form jets. Alfven said the Sun, Jupiter, Saturn etc all have equatorial plasmoids, which, when the stored energy becomes excessive, switch to polar jets.

482 Comet tails are apparently scaled up astral jets.
LLOYD: Didn't Wal say that proto-Saturn may have been a comet?

484 Jets are mainly electric currents.

485 Galaxies that were ejected axially have no angular momentum and remain along the original line of ejection.
LLOYD: Is a galaxy’s lack of angular momentum determined by its slow rotation? Since the Sun has little angular momentum, was it ejected axially from something?

486 Wal's Theory is that proto-Saturn ejected planets equatorially.
LLOYD: And that’s why some rocky planets have moderate angular momentum?

492 Stone tools similar to those in East Africa were found in 15 locations in Siberia in the Arctic Circle. Petroglyphs are found on Spitzbergen, also in the Arctic.
LLOYD: Do you think civilization began in the Arctic?
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Re: Cardona Interview on Saturn Theory

Unread postby moses » Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:39 pm

Saturn's axis is tilted about the same as Earth's and it points the same direction as Earth's, toward the North Star. Neither axis has changed since at least the Tertiary. DC

Saturn's axis is about 6 1/2 degrees away from Earth's axis. If Saturn-Mars-Earth orbitted the Sun, presumably near where Saturn is now, then the suggestion is that these three planets lined up nearly with the north star. Now if one considers that the three planets are linear because of a Birkeland Current flowing along that line then I see a problem. The solar magnetic field would run across, then with or against that flow. Seemily not very stable.

I once thought that the Earth flipped over and even if it did so in the Saturn System it would not matter in respect of the axis of Saturn aligning with the axis of Earth. It is only after the break-up that interaction with another planet could alter Earth's axis. But now I think that the axis just got disturbed 30 degrees or so and then returned to where it was as a gyroscope, just like Wal thinks. But Mars underwent a more severe interaction and it's axis shifted.

LLOYD: Or Earth could have been between Saturn and Jupiter.

Which is what I first thought and still think because it is very likely to form a stable configuration. Jupiter would not have been seen from the northern hemisphere and it is only when Earth flipped that the god of the underworld (Jupiter) took the place of Saturn.
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