The Boring Sun

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby fosborn_ » Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:29 pm

Shrike wrote:
fosborn_ wrote:
by GaryN » Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:12 pm

Our Boring, Black Sun.

Until I see proof otherwise, I believe ourSun would be blackif we tried to view
it from outside Earths atmosphere.


How hot is the surface of the Sun ?


about 5000 Celsius


Wonder what the black body radiation is at that temp ?
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Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby fosborn_ » Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:33 pm

Shrike wrote:
fosborn_ wrote:
by GaryN » Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:12 pm

Our Boring, Black Sun.

Until I see proof otherwise, I believe ourSun would be blackif we tried to view
it from outside Earths atmosphere.


How hot is the surface of the Sun ?


about 5000 Celsius


So if I heated a piece of calcium to that temp, wonder what the luminosity would be?
The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries,
is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'
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Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby GaryN » Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:48 pm

Is this a trick question Frank?
I read between 4500 and 6000, one method of measurement gives 5840. I'm
just looking into how the temperature is measured, and where from. Here
is a pdf about the method of temperature measurement in a selection of
young main sequence stars.
http://schwab.tsuniv.edu/papers/paspc/cs13/reprint2.pdf
I see room for error in these methods though, but I need to learn more
about the absorption lines and how they can be affected.
So if I heated a piece of calcium to that temp, wonder what the luminosity would be?

Well what about my 6000 K full spectrum fluorescent lamp? It doesn't even
get hot to the touch. Maybe the photosphere is only warm? :?
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller
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Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby Influx » Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:40 am

:?

http://chamorrobible.org/images/photos/gpw-20061021-NASA-GPN-2000-001097-Earth-sunburst-clouds-ocean-robot-arm-STS-77-Space-Shuttle-Endeavour-May-1996-medium.jpg

space...

http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/4/2010/06/greekmoonflare.jpg

earth...

http://gizmodo.com/5562538/shooting-challenge-lens-flare-gallery-part-one

Heliophobia has two meanings:

* in psychology, heliophobia refers to a morbid fear of sunlight.
* in medicine, heliophobia (more commonly photophobia) refers to an excessive sensitivity to sunlight.

:lol: :lol:
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Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby fosborn_ » Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:06 am

GaryN wrote:Is this a trick question Frank?


Just trying to achieve entry level conversation. :|


GaryN wrote:Well what about my 6000 K full spectrum fluorescent lamp? It doesn't even
get hot to the touch.Maybe the photosphere is only warm?:?


What is the source of all that radiant energy that heats the earth?

If I face the Sun, its warm. If I look away, its cooler.
When I'm in Colorado at 9400 feet, it feels even hotter in the sun.

The closer I get, the hotter it gets, is my current conclusion, at this point in my investigations.

Sorry, I don't have a link to an abstract for it.
The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries,
is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'
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Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby GaryN » Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:34 pm

http://chamorrobible.org/images/photos/ ... medium.jpg
Nice image, but it does raise a few questions. Looking directly at the Sun, with no
filter, no atmosphere to cut out the UV, and yet the camera is not blinded, as it
shows the back side of the arm in full detail. I'd have thought it would be black.
I wonder if the camera was ruined after that shot?
Through a solar filter the Sun appears in its “real ”colour —neutral white, not blue or orange, and the sky adjacent to the solar limb is jet black.

Image
No lens flares with a solar filter, just wish I could get NASA to have one
of the EVA crew put a filter on their camera and show me the Sun. All these
years of manned space flight, and they forgot to take a solar filter with them?
What is the source of all that radiant energy that heats the earth?

Infrared for the most part, I believe.
Image
Spectrum tubes use a high voltage (1000-5000V) to make the elements glow, so is the
photosphere, only 100km deep, a charged shell? Or what about microwaves and magnetically
induced plasmas? Lots of ways to produce glows, which one does the Sun use?
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller
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Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby fosborn_ » Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:03 pm

The Solar Radiation and Climate Experiment (SORCE) is a NASA-sponsored satellite mission that provides state-of-the-art measurements of incoming X-ray, ultraviolet, near-infrared, and total solar radiation. The measurements provided by SORCE specifically address long-term climate change, natural variability and enhanced climate prediction, and atmospheric ozone and UV-B radiation. These measurements are critical to studies of the Sun; its effect on our Earth system; and its influence on humankind.
Semi-major axis 7002.26 km

but most recently NASA cites TSI as "1361 W/m2 as compared to ~1366 W/m2 from earlier observations [Kopp et al., 2005]", based on regular readings from NASA's Solar Radiation and Climate Experiment(SORCE) satellite, active since 2003,[5] noting that this "discovery is critical in examining the energy budget of the planet Earth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunlight#Total_.28TSI.29_and_spectral_solar_irradiance_.28SSI.29_upon_Earth
http://lasp.colorado.edu/sorce/instrume ... #sim_block
Looks like there is equipment to measure the Sun's total output. Its whole spectrum.
I think you can rest your mind about a dark sun.

Spectral Irradiance Monitor (SIM)
Introduction

The Spectral Irradiance Monitor is a newly designed spectrometer that provides the first long-duration solar spectral irradiance measurements in the visible and near infrared (Vis/NIR). The wavelength coverage is primarily from 300 to 2400 nm, with an additional channel to cover the 200-300 nm ultraviolet spectral region to overlap with the SOLSTICE, another instrument on-board the SORCE satellite. Understanding the wavelength-dependent variability throughout SIM's wavelength range is of primary importance for long-term climate change studies on Earth. SIM is a single optical element Fèry prism spectrometer; only one optical element is needed to focus and disperse the light onto a series of detectors in the spectrometer's focal plane. In this focal plane, four photodiode detectors and an electrical substitution radiometer (ESR) are used to detect solar radiation. SIM contains two completely independent and identical (mirror-image) spectrometers to provide redundancy and self-calibration capability.
http://lasp.colorado.edu/sorce/instruments/sim.htm
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Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby Archonix » Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:24 pm

GaryN wrote:Is this a trick question Frank?
I read between 4500 and 6000, one method of measurement gives 5840. I'm
just looking into how the temperature is measured, and where from. Here
is a pdf about the method of temperature measurement in a selection of
young main sequence stars.
http://schwab.tsuniv.edu/papers/paspc/cs13/reprint2.pdf
I see room for error in these methods though, but I need to learn more
about the absorption lines and how they can be affected.
So if I heated a piece of calcium to that temp, wonder what the luminosity would be?

Well what about my 6000 K full spectrum fluorescent lamp? It doesn't even
get hot to the touch. Maybe the photosphere is only warm? :?


No. The kelvin measurement of light is the temperature that an ideal black body would have to reach to emit that particular frequency of light as thermal radiation. Your fluorescent lamp emits light by non-thermal means, so it's very cool, whilst a regular filament lamp emitting 6000K light is an almost ideal black body emitting light as thermal radiation, so is very hot. The sun emits light as thermal radiation, which is how we stay warm. If it were emitting light by non-thermal means it would be invisible in infra red, and we'd be a very cold planet.
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Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby Influx » Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:20 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zq0ptByQrcg

The sun looks fairly bright, in fact it completely overpowers the camera. One of the difficulty of taking pictures of the sun.

This was taken from the moon, the sun is not black. ;)
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Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby GaryN » Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:58 pm

Good news for any would-be space tourists. After some correspondence with
astronomers and manufacturers of Solar filters, they are in 100% agreement
that you can take a picture of the Sun with an ordinary camera and a standard
Solar filter. Some cameras may require additional IR/UV blocking, depending
on the response characteristics of the camera. Why you would want to take a
picture of something you can see every day from your front yard (apart from in
the Pacific Northwest this year :( ) is the obvious question though.
Anyway, it seems that it is not the Sun that is boring, it is that the astronauts
see it blazing away every day, and have just become bored with it. Case closed.
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller
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Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby fosborn_ » Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:15 am

GaryN wrote:Good news for any would-be space tourists. After some correspondence with
astronomers and manufacturers of Solar filters, they are in 100% agreement
that you can take a picture of the Sun with an ordinary camera and a standard
Solar filter. Some cameras may require additional IR/UV blocking, depending
on the response characteristics of the camera. Why you would want to take a
picture of something you can see every day from your front yard (apart from in
the Pacific Northwest this year :( ) is the obvious question though.
Anyway, it seems that it is not the Sun that is boring, it is that the astronauts
see it blazing away every day, and have just become bored with it. Case closed.


Closed case?
Are you now saying that the science people presented in this thread to falsify your view of astronomy, is valid then?
Folks went to some effort you know.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4579&start=60#p52877
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4579&p=54434#p54278
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4579&p=54434#p54274
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4579&start=15#p51998
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4579&start=15#p52323
The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries,
is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'
Isaac Asimov
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Posts: 524
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 10:20 am
Location: Kansas

Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby Aardwolf » Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:56 am

GaryN wrote:Good news for any would-be space tourists. After some correspondence with
astronomers and manufacturers of Solar filters, they are in 100% agreement
that you can take a picture of the Sun with an ordinary camera and a standard
Solar filter. Some cameras may require additional IR/UV blocking, depending
on the response characteristics of the camera. Why you would want to take a
picture of something you can see every day from your front yard (apart from in
the Pacific Northwest this year :( ) is the obvious question though.
Anyway, it seems that it is not the Sun that is boring, it is that the astronauts
see it blazing away every day, and have just become bored with it. Case closed.

Maybe for the Sun. What about stars?
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Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby fosborn_ » Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:06 am

fosborn_ wrote:
GaryN wrote:Good news for any would-be space tourists. After some correspondence with
astronomers and manufacturers of Solar filters, they are in 100% agreement
that you can take a picture of the Sun with an ordinary camera and a standard
Solar filter. Some cameras may require additional IR/UV blocking, depending
on the response characteristics of the camera. Why you would want to take a
picture of something you can see every day from your front yard (apart from in
the Pacific Northwest this year :( ) is the obvious question though.
Anyway, it seems that it is not the Sun that is boring, it is that the astronauts
see it blazing away every day, and have just become bored with it. Case closed.


Closed case?
Are you now saying that the science people presented in this thread to falsify your view of astronomy, is valid then?
Folks went to some effort you know.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4579&start=60#p52877
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4579&p=54434#p54278
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4579&p=54434#p54274
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4579&start=15#p51998
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4579&start=15#p52323


Maybe for the Sun. What about stars?

Read the links, its covered.
The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries,
is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'
Isaac Asimov
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Posts: 524
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 10:20 am
Location: Kansas

Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby GaryN » Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:14 am

Closed case?
Are you now saying that the science people presented in this thread to falsify your view of astronomy, is valid then?
Folks went to some effort you know.

Faced with the consensus of experts on the Sun, solar filters, and cameras, I
have to accept that the Sun can be photographed in space, and will look like
the Sun as seen through a filter, from Earth. The fact that no such image exists
is due to nobody, over 40 years of manned space flight, having had the time and/or
interest to take such an image. It's just the Sun, no big deal.
Maybe for the Sun. What about stars?

Same thing I guess. If the experts say you will obviously see a glorious view of
the heavens from space, then you will, and I'm sure the pioneering space tourists
will confirm this one day.
I think I may have been far too cynical of the abilities of the experts in their
various fields. I have to accept that I am not qualified to question their years
of University, their certificates and the absolute authority of those letters after
their names. My life will be much simpler and less frustrating if I just believe
what I am told. In a way this will be a major relief, especially with things like
black holes and magnetars, dark energy, etc. I have spent far too long worrying about
things best left to the experts. I have been assimilated into the scientific hive
mind, it feels good.Image
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller
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Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby fosborn_ » Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:22 pm

GaryN wrote:
Closed case?
Are you now saying that the science people presented in this thread to falsify your view of astronomy, is valid then?
Folks went to some effort you know.

Faced with the consensus of experts on the Sun, solar filters, and cameras, I
have to accept that the Sun can be photographed in space, and will look like
the Sun as seen through a filter, from Earth. The fact that no such image exists
is due to nobody, over 40 years of manned space flight, having had the time and/or
interest to take such an image. It's just the Sun, no big deal.

What some cheese with that wine?
would the darkest Voyager methane filter work okay for you?
vg1_wa_ch4u.JPG



Its the one they used to take pictures of the sun.
The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries,
is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'
Isaac Asimov
fosborn_
 
Posts: 524
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 10:20 am
Location: Kansas

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