The General Theory of Stellar Metamorphosis

[JeffreyW]

Your theory seems to imply a one-way affair of the plasma being ONLY a self-contained "core" structure that eventually cools down to a solid state. EU isn't quite like that. Indeed, plasma eventually changes state into a solid but its path to this end isn't linear as you suggest it to be. EU doesn't quite abide by an absolute state of entropy. To my knowledge, EU violates one of the laws of Thermodynamics in that regard.

Just so we are again 100% clear so that no confusion is had between us two and others. Stelmeta uses 2nd "law" in this regard, so yes it is one way affair after the star is born:

1. Thermodynamic equilibrium is the state of maximum entropy.

2. Young stars are in non-equilibrium and work towards achieving maximum entropy.

3. Thus young stars are going from being in non-equilibrium (plasma) to equilibrium (neutral matter, rocks, minerals, water, etc.)

[viscount aero]

Your theory seems to imply a one-way affair of the plasma being ONLY a self-contained "core" structure that eventually cools down to a solid state. EU isn't quite like that. Indeed, plasma eventually changes state into a solid but its path to this end isn't linear as you suggest it to be. EU doesn't quite abide by an absolute state of entropy. To my knowledge, EU violates one of the laws of Thermodynamics in that regard.

Just so we are again 100% clear so that no confusion is had between us two and others. Stelmeta uses 2nd "law" in this regard, so yes it is one way affair after the star is born:

1. Thermodynamic equilibrium is the state of maximum entropy.

2. Young stars are in non-equilibrium and work towards achieving maximum entropy.

3. Thus young stars are going from being in non-equilibrium (plasma) to equilibrium (neutral matter, rocks, minerals, water, etc.)

Plasma eventually becomes/can become solid matter. But it isn't following a linear path to get there. A solid body can re-melt and become plasma again if affected by an external molten/ionized environment or event. Plasma, being electrical, can intensify then abate, then intensify, abate, go dark, then ignite again and again....

[JeffreyW]

Your theory seems to imply a one-way affair of the plasma being ONLY a self-contained "core" structure that eventually cools down to a solid state. EU isn't quite like that. Indeed, plasma eventually changes state into a solid but its path to this end isn't linear as you suggest it to be. EU doesn't quite abide by an absolute state of entropy. To my knowledge, EU violates one of the laws of Thermodynamics in that regard.

Just so we are again 100% clear so that no confusion is had between us two and others. Stelmeta uses 2nd "law" in this regard, so yes it is one way affair after the star is born:

1. Thermodynamic equilibrium is the state of maximum entropy.

2. Young stars are in non-equilibrium and work towards achieving maximum entropy.

3. Thus young stars are going from being in non-equilibrium (plasma) to equilibrium (neutral matter, rocks, minerals, water, etc.)

Plasma eventually becomes/can become solid matter. But it isn't following a linear path to get there. A solid body can re-melt and become plasma again if affected by an external molten/ionized environment or event. Plasma, being electrical, can intensify then abate, then intensify, abate, go dark, then ignite again and again....

That is our difference then. In stelmeta once a star is born, it goes from plasma, to gas, then to liquids and solids, all the while shrinking and cooling, following the 2nd law of thermodynamics. To say the Earth can completely ionize means we have to invoke a mechanism to make 6,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 tons of rocks and solid iron ionize.

Even better lets propose a laboratory experiment. Take a 1000 kilogram solid ball of iron and let it get struck by lightning. If the iron ball completely vaporizes then we need to scale up the iron. If the iron does nothing but just sit there and conduct the electricity (meaning nothing happens but the iron heats up a little) then we can work off that. I'm saying this because in the center of ancient stars like the Earth, iron has collected in their centers. The iron/nickel ball in the center of the Earth is roughly the diameter of Texas. How would electricity ionize this gigantic ball to a plasma when iron mildly conducts electricity? The resistance of a ball that large would be essentially zero, because there is so much volume.

Just to be fair I do propose that electricity CAN heat up material as I see this when I replace breakers and contacts inside of starters, because there is significant resistance, but when the wires are very large and thick there is almost nil resistance, thus almost no heating at all. I mean, have you seen the wires going to a 1000 AMP breaker?

[viscount aero]

Your theory seems to imply a one-way affair of the plasma being ONLY a self-contained "core" structure that eventually cools down to a solid state. EU isn't quite like that. Indeed, plasma eventually changes state into a solid but its path to this end isn't linear as you suggest it to be. EU doesn't quite abide by an absolute state of entropy. To my knowledge, EU violates one of the laws of Thermodynamics in that regard.

Just so we are again 100% clear so that no confusion is had between us two and others. Stelmeta uses 2nd "law" in this regard, so yes it is one way affair after the star is born:

1. Thermodynamic equilibrium is the state of maximum entropy.

2. Young stars are in non-equilibrium and work towards achieving maximum entropy.

3. Thus young stars are going from being in non-equilibrium (plasma) to equilibrium (neutral matter, rocks, minerals, water, etc.)

Plasma eventually becomes/can become solid matter. But it isn't following a linear path to get there. A solid body can re-melt and become plasma again if affected by an external molten/ionized environment or event. Plasma, being electrical, can intensify then abate, then intensify, abate, go dark, then ignite again and again....

That is our difference then. In stelmeta once a star is born, it goes from plasma, to gas, then to liquids and solids, all the while shrinking and cooling, following the 2nd law of thermodynamics. To say the Earth can completely ionize means we have to invoke a mechanism to make 6,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 tons of rocks and solid iron ionize.

Even better lets propose a laboratory experiment. Take a 1000 kilogram solid ball of iron and let it get struck by lightning. If the iron ball completely vaporizes then we need to scale up the iron. If the iron does nothing but just sit there and conduct the electricity (meaning nothing happens but the iron heats up a little) then we can work off that. I'm saying this because in the center of ancient stars like the Earth, iron has collected in their centers. The iron/nickel ball in the center of the Earth is roughly the diameter of Texas. How would electricity ionize this gigantic ball to a plasma when iron mildly conducts electricity? The resistance of a ball that large would be essentially zero, because there is so much volume.

Just to be fair I do propose that electricity CAN heat up material as I see this when I replace breakers and contacts inside of starters, because there is significant resistance, but when the wires are very large and thick there is almost nil resistance, thus almost no heating at all. I mean, have you seen the wires going to a 1000 AMP breaker?

Hypothetically a giant core of iron could melt and be brought into a plasma state. Plasma can radiate into the millions of degrees. The earth is a small body compared to giant light-year wide structures that are observed through telescopes.

Will Earth become vaporized and melt? Who knows. The specific conditions of its environment say no. But even a body the size of the Sun would swallow and vaporize the Earth quite easily. A stream of plasma with the energy and density of the Sun could vaporize a planet, or some amount of it, were it caught in the crossfire.

I think it is fair to say that bodies tend to entropy and become lumps of iron and silica, ie, meteorite/asteroidal bodies. The rubble pile is the ultimate geologic entropy repository unless acted upon by another force.

[JeffreyW]

You do understand what electrical resistance means right?

1. The thinner the wire the more the resistance.

2. The longer the wire the more resistance.

3. The thicker the wire the less resistance.

4. The shorter the wire the less resistance.

So, all we have to do is look into what would be the resistance of an iron ball the diameter of Texas.

If we find that the resistance is almost non-existent, then how exactly would electricity heat it up? Electrical resistance is the only way I see electricity heating anything up.

Not only that, even if electricity could heat the iron up it would at most be just a liquid (melting point), you would also have to continue heating it until its boiling point, which is even hotter. After it's boiling point you would have to continue heating it until it completely vaporizes, and THEN you have to some how ionize the iron, which takes even MORE energy, and considering the incredible amounts of heat involved from making a trillion trillion ton ball of iron go to liquid, boiling liquid, vapor, ionized plasma... I just see it completely unreasonable for electricity to be able to do this, especially when iron in that amount is resistance free (cannot be heated with any amount of electricity).

This is the reason why I don't like EU's approach. They ignore thermodynamics. You don't just go from solid crystalline iron to plasma. You have what are called "phase transitions", and by the looks of it both the establishment and the EU ignore this fact of nature.

[JeffreyW]

I know this may sound trite, but for the sake of this thread I'm beginning to notice a pattern with the people who respond to this:

1. They ignore material that is not plasma.

Here is a list of materials that are NOT plasma:

Granite, water, liquid nitrogen, graphite, plastic, wood, glass, quartz, diamonds, rubies, sapphires, oil, gasoline, methane, feldspar, tungsten, gold nuggets, silver nuggets, beach sand, gypsum, obsidian, sandstone, coal, biotite, aluminum...

If the universe is 99.99% plasma, why are most of the materials I interact with solids, liquids and gases? This 99.99% plasma stuff has me very, very suspicious, especially when solids provide the ground I walk on, liquids my ability to move freely and circulate blood, and gases my ability to breathe.

[viscount aero]

You do understand what electrical resistance means right?

1. The thinner the wire the more the resistance.

2. The longer the wire the more resistance.

3. The thicker the wire the less resistance.

4. The shorter the wire the less resistance.

So, all we have to do is look into what would be the resistance of an iron ball the diameter of Texas.

If we find that the resistance is almost non-existent, then how exactly would electricity heat it up? Electrical resistance is the only way I see electricity heating anything up.

Not only that, even if electricity could heat the iron up it would at most be just a liquid (melting point), you would also have to continue heating it until its boiling point, which is even hotter. After it's boiling point you would have to continue heating it until it completely vaporizes, and THEN you have to some how ionize the iron, which takes even MORE energy, and considering the incredible amounts of heat involved from making a trillion trillion ton ball of iron go to liquid, boiling liquid, vapor, ionized plasma... I just see it completely unreasonable for electricity to be able to do this, especially when iron in that amount is resistance free (cannot be heated with any amount of electricity).

This is the reason why I don't like EU's approach. They ignore thermodynamics. You don't just go from solid crystalline iron to plasma. You have what are called "phase transitions", and by the looks of it both the establishment and the EU ignore this fact of nature.

Terrestrial lightning can be up to 55,000ºF (30,537ºC). Melting point of iron is 2800ºF (1537ºC). Surface temperature of the Sun is 10,832ºF (6000ºC). Electrical discharges in space could be even hotter and endure much longer. The Sun's corona emits X-rays at over 1,000,000ºF. Were something subjected long enough to any of these temperatures it would vaporize. I don't see how anything could remain in a solid state under these conditions. But this is my opinion. I may be incorrect: The farther into the Sun you go the cooler it gets, by observation. But I don't believe I have all of the answers.

[viscount aero]

I know this may sound trite, but for the sake of this thread I'm beginning to notice a pattern with the people who respond to this:

1. They ignore material that is not plasma.

Here is a list of materials that are NOT plasma:

Granite, water, liquid nitrogen, graphite, plastic, wood, glass, quartz, diamonds, rubies, sapphires, oil, gasoline, methane, feldspar, tungsten, gold nuggets, silver nuggets, beach sand, gypsum, obsidian, sandstone, coal, biotite, aluminum...

If the universe is 99.99% plasma, why are most of the materials I interact with solids, liquids and gases? This 99.99% plasma stuff has me very, very suspicious, especially when solids provide the ground I walk on, liquids my ability to move freely and circulate blood, and gases my ability to breathe.

Oh no.. no... you don't get it! 99.99% of everything is dark matter! Don't you see? Nothing else matters!

[Sparky]

-the total mass–energy of the universe contains 4.9% ordinary matter, 26.8% dark matter and 68.3% dark energy.[2][3] Thus, dark matter is estimated to constitute 84.5% of the total matter in the universe and 26.8% of the total content of the universe

jw:

Here is a list of materials that are NOT plasma:

Granite, water, liquid nitrogen, graphite, plastic, wood, glass, quartz, diamonds, rubies, sapphires, oil, gasoline, methane, feldspar, tungsten, gold nuggets, silver nuggets, beach sand, gypsum, obsidian, sandstone, coal, biotite, aluminum...

graphite,diamonds,tungsten, gold ,silver,aluminum:are the only elemental forms of matter, the others are compounds. I believe that any element can be ionized to form a plasma. Compounds need to have molecular bonds broken for ionization. Plasma can be gaseous, liquid, or solid. http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2006/ ... plasma.htm

[JeffreyW]

Terrestrial lightning can be up to 55,000ºF (30,537ºC). Melting point of iron is 2800ºF (1537ºC). Surface temperature of the Sun is 10,832ºF (6000ºC). Electrical discharges in space could be even hotter and endure much longer. The Sun's corona emits X-rays at over 1,000,000ºF. Were something subjected long enough to any of these temperatures it would vaporize. I don't see how anything could remain in a solid state under these conditions. But this is my opinion. I may be incorrect: The farther into the Sun you go the cooler it gets, by observation. But I don't believe I have all of the answers.

I don't think you are understanding. Iron conducts electricity. It is the resistance of a material that brings about the heat generated from electricity. Air is incredibly high resistance to electrical current, which is why when there is a break down (voltage drop) significant enough to overcome the resistance of the air, the air ionizes and gets heated to 55,000 F.

Iron conducts electricity vastly better than air. Thus, how does one HEAT the iron if it conducts electricity? Thus no resistance = no heat? This is my point.

[viscount aero]

Terrestrial lightning can be up to 55,000ºF (30,537ºC). Melting point of iron is 2800ºF (1537ºC). Surface temperature of the Sun is 10,832ºF (6000ºC). Electrical discharges in space could be even hotter and endure much longer. The Sun's corona emits X-rays at over 1,000,000ºF. Were something subjected long enough to any of these temperatures it would vaporize. I don't see how anything could remain in a solid state under these conditions. But this is my opinion. I may be incorrect: The farther into the Sun you go the cooler it gets, by observation. But I don't believe I have all of the answers.

I don't think you are understanding. Iron conducts electricity. It is the resistance of a material that brings about the heat generated from electricity. Air is incredibly high resistance to electrical current, which is why when there is a break down (voltage drop) significant enough to overcome the resistance of the air, the air ionizes and gets heated to 55,000 F.

Iron conducts electricity vastly better than air. Thus, how does one HEAT the iron if it conducts electricity? Thus no resistance = no heat? This is my point.

Anything that conducts electricity can become vaporized and melted down with enough heat applied to it. I don't think something can conduct its way out of becoming vaporized if it reaches a melting point. If you sent an iron ball into a million degree plasma stream are you saying it would never melt?

[JeffreyW]

-the total mass–energy of the universe contains 4.9% ordinary matter, 26.8% dark matter and 68.3% dark energy.[2][3] Thus, dark matter is estimated to constitute 84.5% of the total matter in the universe and 26.8% of the total content of the universe

jw:

Here is a list of materials that are NOT plasma:

Granite, water, liquid nitrogen, graphite, plastic, wood, glass, quartz, diamonds, rubies, sapphires, oil, gasoline, methane, feldspar, tungsten, gold nuggets, silver nuggets, beach sand, gypsum, obsidian, sandstone, coal, biotite, aluminum...

graphite,diamonds,tungsten, gold ,silver,aluminum:are the only elemental forms of matter, the others are compounds. I believe that any element can be ionized to form a plasma. Compounds need to have molecular bonds broken for ionization. Plasma can be gaseous, liquid, or solid. http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2006/ ... plasma.htm

I thought there were four distinct (classical) forms of matter. Solids (diamond), liquid (water at room temperature and atmospheric pressure), and gas (O2 at room temperature and atmospheric pressure), and plasma, a gas that is conducting electricity?

[JeffreyW]

Terrestrial lightning can be up to 55,000ºF (30,537ºC). Melting point of iron is 2800ºF (1537ºC). Surface temperature of the Sun is 10,832ºF (6000ºC). Electrical discharges in space could be even hotter and endure much longer. The Sun's corona emits X-rays at over 1,000,000ºF. Were something subjected long enough to any of these temperatures it would vaporize. I don't see how anything could remain in a solid state under these conditions. But this is my opinion. I may be incorrect: The farther into the Sun you go the cooler it gets, by observation. But I don't believe I have all of the answers.

I don't think you are understanding. Iron conducts electricity. It is the resistance of a material that brings about the heat generated from electricity. Air is incredibly high resistance to electrical current, which is why when there is a break down (voltage drop) significant enough to overcome the resistance of the air, the air ionizes and gets heated to 55,000 F.

Iron conducts electricity vastly better than air. Thus, how does one HEAT the iron if it conducts electricity? Thus no resistance = no heat? This is my point.

Anything that conducts electricity can become vaporized and melted down with enough heat applied to it. I don't think something can conduct its way out of becoming vaporized if it reaches a melting point. If you sent an iron ball into a million degree plasma stream are you saying it would never melt?

Depends on how large of current per surface area squared is being applied to how big of an iron ball. You can have a million trillion AMPs flowing though outerspace, but unless that current is focused then there will be zero melting. Think of a magnifying glass, yea sure you can stand out side and not burn, but if someone were to hold a large magnifying glass up to your head it would burn like a blow torch.

[viscount aero]

Terrestrial lightning can be up to 55,000ºF (30,537ºC). Melting point of iron is 2800ºF (1537ºC). Surface temperature of the Sun is 10,832ºF (6000ºC). Electrical discharges in space could be even hotter and endure much longer. The Sun's corona emits X-rays at over 1,000,000ºF. Were something subjected long enough to any of these temperatures it would vaporize. I don't see how anything could remain in a solid state under these conditions. But this is my opinion. I may be incorrect: The farther into the Sun you go the cooler it gets, by observation. But I don't believe I have all of the answers.

I don't think you are understanding. Iron conducts electricity. It is the resistance of a material that brings about the heat generated from electricity. Air is incredibly high resistance to electrical current, which is why when there is a break down (voltage drop) significant enough to overcome the resistance of the air, the air ionizes and gets heated to 55,000 F.

Iron conducts electricity vastly better than air. Thus, how does one HEAT the iron if it conducts electricity? Thus no resistance = no heat? This is my point.

Anything that conducts electricity can become vaporized and melted down with enough heat applied to it. I don't think something can conduct its way out of becoming vaporized if it reaches a melting point. If you sent an iron ball into a million degree plasma stream are you saying it would never melt?

Depends on how large of current per surface area squared is being applied to how big of an iron ball. You can have a million trillion AMPs flowing though outerspace, but unless that current is focused then there will be zero melting. Think of a magnifying glass, yea sure you can stand out side and not burn, but if someone were to hold a large magnifying glass up to your head it would burn like a blow torch.

Right. But in my opinion if an iron ball were enveloped long enough in an environment whose radiation heated up solid matter beyond that matter's melting point, the matter would change its state. It would go from solid to liquid or solid to gas (or it would ionize and burn). I don't think it would matter if it conducted electricity or not. Just talking about pure melting--no matter what the substance is--I think that amps and volts would become irrelevant after a point.

For example throw something into a campfire and it will burn to ashes. For metals the fire would have to be super-heated and carried to a greater length of exposure--like what you see in a steel mill. Throw almost anything into the cauldron in a steel mill and it will all disappear and vaporize. Higher up still, throw anything into an erupting volcano in Hawaii and it will disappear into oblivion. Electrical currents in space exist at varied intensities and densities, from very diffuse to very intense and focused.

[Sparky]

jw:

I thought there were four distinct (classical) forms of matter. Solids (diamond), liquid (water at room temperature and atmospheric pressure), and gas (O2 at room temperature and atmospheric pressure), and plasma, a gas that is conducting electricity?

Generally, that is correct. But physics has introduced special conditions.

I consider any conductive material as a partial plasma. After all there has to be free electrons to mediate electricity. But I accept the 5 states of matter for now: Gas, liquid, solid, and Bose-Einstein condensate.