Light has electrical & magnetic field, but not at same time?

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Light has electrical & magnetic field, but not at same time?

Unread postby phyllotaxis » Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:26 am

...studies show that light can have both an electrical and a magnetic field, but not at the same time.

I don't know where to begin with this one...


http://phys.org/news/2012-06-limits-cla ... ysics.html

excerpt:
In the quantum optical laboratories at the Niels Bohr Institute, researchers have conducted experiments that show that light breaks with the classical physical principles. The studies show that light can have both an electrical and a magnetic field, but not at the same time. That is to say, light has quantum mechanical properties.

(Phys.org) -- With simple arguments, researchers show that nature is complicated. Researchers from the Niels Bohr Institute have made a simple experiment that demonstrates that nature violates common sense – the world is different than most people believe. The experiment illustrates that light does not behave according to the principles of classical physics, but that light has quantum mechanical properties. The new method could be used to study whether other systems behave quantum mechanically. The results have been published in the scientific journal, Physical Review Letters.


PDF of the actual report: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1110.3060v2.pdf
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Re: Light has electrical & magnetic field, but not at same t

Unread postby Sparky » Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:53 pm

Researchers from the Niels Bohr Institute have made a simple experiment that demonstrates that nature violates common sense --


And logic!...Common sense is not always logical, and logic is not always true, but things should make sense when explained!

How can light produce electrical effects without imposing upon matter?
Then, if electrical effects are produced, how can that be a property of light?

I donno? :? :oops:
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Re: Light has electrical & magnetic field, but not at same t

Unread postby sjw40364 » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:22 pm

An attempt at magnetic reconnection theory? Once, just the other day it seems light had no charge and no mass. Now it has electrical and magnetic properties (properties of mass) just not at the same time supposedly. I have yet to see a picture of a photon, or any proof that they can detect just one, let alone have sensors delicate enough to declare with certainty such is the case. I certainly believe it has electrical and magnetic fields and all that implies. Perhaps because of its speed and size it flickers between converting from energy to matter back to energy over and over? Neither one nor the other and so appears to us as both particle and wave.
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Re: Light has electrical & magnetic field, but not at same t

Unread postby Sparky » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:43 am

sjw,
=it flickers between converting from energy to matter back to energy over and over?


well, you did form that as a question....I have been shown that "energy" is just a mathematical convenience, not a real entity. e=mc^2, when applied to fissionable material, doing it's fission thing, indicates that a whole lot of particles come flying out at very high speeds, and the sum of those particle's energy equals mc^2. but there are people who believe that energy can float around, waiting to be used to create matter, as strings or other tiny monsters.
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Re: Light has electrical & magnetic field, but not at same t

Unread postby sjw40364 » Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:34 pm

Sparky wrote:sjw,
=it flickers between converting from energy to matter back to energy over and over?


well, you did form that as a question....I have been shown that "energy" is just a mathematical convenience, not a real entity. e=mc^2, when applied to fissionable material, doing it's fission thing, indicates that a whole lot of particles come flying out at very high speeds, and the sum of those particle's energy equals mc^2. but there are people who believe that energy can float around, waiting to be used to create matter, as strings or other tiny monsters.


No, not strings or other tiny monsters, just particles that we are as of yet unaware of, as we were once unaware of the atom. And basically still are. Because in the end onr thing sums it up. Atoms never actually touch, even when you set the cup on the table. So there is action at a distance or smaller particles filling the gap that are touching, or touch often enough to keep the cup up.

Or there are stringy things and tiny furry monsters holding it aloft. :o
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Re: Light has electrical & magnetic field, but not at same t

Unread postby onthehook » Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:06 am

Light may be a separation of Electric and Magnetic divided by time.
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Re: Light has electrical & magnetic field, but not at same t

Unread postby sjw40364 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:41 pm

onthehook wrote:Light may be a separation of Electric and Magnetic divided by time.


I don't believe in time as in a 4th dimension. IF (big IF), conservation of energy is correct, then time has no meaning for their is neither beginning, nor end, just now. Time is but another measurement of distance, and the fact that it is not a constant (always dependent on distance from a gravity well, i.e. electric and magnetic source, and velocity which increases the EM force), shows it cannot be a universal medium. It is a variable, a mere vibration of a cesium atom in the electric and magnetic fields, and its true passage can never be determined.

We know that charge is built up on moving objects and I believe it is the gain in charge that brings about the apparent increase in mass. Your mass has not doubled at 2G then goes back to original at 1G, The so called extra weight is electrostatic resistance to moving through charged particles.

Interesting thought, perhaps the magnetic field has a formation delay?
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Re: Light has electrical & magnetic field, but not at same t

Unread postby onthehook » Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:20 am

True, I kind of picture time as the available Processes dependent on how close you are to the nearest energy source, star, black whole. I picture a black whole as pure energy-mass, so there could be no time or processes, thus no light.

Taken one step further, only this instant exists so it's only our perception of process - it's a well known fact that it takes your significant other far longer to cook when you are hungry. Take voltage and current, I still don't know if this right but I have read that voltage travels instantaneously while current lags, possibly different parts of a whole following a different process. You guys know far more than me on these subjects and I am always fascinated by your posts - so pardon me if I interject a monumental error here and there.
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Re: Light has electrical & magnetic field, but not at same t

Unread postby Sparky » Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:36 am

--hook,
---so pardon me if I interject a monumental error here and there.


No real problem... Some of the most monumental errors were and are those held as Facts. And it seems that intelligence, education, credentials, and persuasive skills do not inoculate against having those errors nor accepting them as truth.

I discovered decades ago that I live from error to error, accepting the current model that one must have to function, as only an undiscovered and about to be replaced error.

I don't know how anything really works, but I can be confident when I declare, as nonsense, someone's dogmatic assertion, that their error is truth.

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WHY DOES MY USE OF THE WORD, "education", link to another site??!!! Do I have malware, or is this one of TB's sources of income? :?
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Re: Light has electrical & magnetic field, but not at same t

Unread postby nick c » Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:10 am

WHY DOES MY USE OF THE WORD, "education", link to another site??!!! Do I have malware, or is this one of TB's sources of income?
Sparky,
I don't know! The word "education" or any other word for that matter, does not automatically link to another site for me.
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Re: Light has electrical & magnetic field, but not at same t

Unread postby sjw40364 » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:21 pm

Sparky wrote:WHY DOES MY USE OF THE WORD, "education", link to another site??!!! Do I have malware, or is this one of TB's sources of income? :?


Maybe you have an add-on in your browser that's doing it?
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Re: Light has electrical & magnetic field, but not at same t

Unread postby Sparky » Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:56 am

sjw40364 wrote:
Sparky wrote:WHY DOES MY USE OF THE WORD, "education", link to another site??!!! Do I have malware, or is this one of TB's sources of income? :?


Maybe you have an add-on in your browser that's doing it?



Yea, it was a codecv thingy in chrome...Chrome wouldn't accept favorites and mixed them up in files, and I was having a hard time learning what procedures to use to get something done, so just got rid of it....thanks :D
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
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Re: Light has electrical & magnetic field, but not at same t

Unread postby onthehook » Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:53 pm

This guy uses his brain, interesting train of thought.
http://lunaticoutpost.com/Topic-Some-vi ... sics-ideas
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Re: Light has electrical & magnetic field, but not at same t

Unread postby Lloyd » Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:56 pm

Alternative to Mathis' Stacked Spins of Photons
Photon Disks
. o o
.o o o
. o o

(Disk of spinning photons {Ignore dots}; spinning reduces pressure, so normal pressure at outer ring adheres them to central red photon.)
* I think I may have a good refinement for Miles Mathis' atomic particle and photon model.
- I believe slow-moving, or stationary non-spinning photons would stick to the equator of a stationary spinning photon. Steven Rado mentioned in his Aethrokinematics CD that moving objects have lower pressure than stationary objects. If two pingpong balls are hung from threads so that they rest about an inch or so apart, a breath of air between them will reduce the air pressure there and the surrounding air pressure forces the two balls together briefly. A related fact is that water clings to a wheel that is spinning, but not to one that is stationary, nor to one that spins too fast. And it's all because motion produces lower pressure, apparently.
- Starting then with a fairly stationary spinning photon, in a sea of fairly stationary mostly non-spinning photons, the surface of the spinning photon has lower pressure than the surrounding photon pressure, because motion reduces pressure. Therefore, normal pressure in surrounding photons pushes them to the equator of the spinning photon, where they either move along following its equatorial spin, or they remain in place at its equator, but spin in reverse. The outer ring of photons may then "attract" a second outer ring in the same way and so on. Centrifugal force causes the photons to move to the equator and the series of outer rings form a disk shape.
- Surrounding photon pressure pushes photons in toward the poles of the disk and centrifugal force pushes them radially along the surface to the equator. If the spin is fast enough, and the disk wide enough, the centrifugal force becomes greater than the low pressure at the disk's equator and the photons start being emitted, instead of adding to the size of the disk. They would be emitted at light speed.
- I haven't figured out what would make electrons different from protons and neutrons, though. This model would be similar to Mathis' spinning proton model, but not extremely similar.
Mathis Model?
* Here's kind of what Mathis' model looks like:
Image
- The smallest circle on the left containing one red dot is a spinning spherical photon. The two circles with one and two dots are the torus shape that the photon makes by spinning around a point on its surface between the two circles. This is the first stacked spin. The larger circle with 3 dots is a sphere formed by the torus rotating around its horizontal axis. The two circles with 3 dots and 4 dots are another torus and so on. The torus with 5 and 6 dots is the electron, I think, and the one with 7 and 8 dots is the proton.
- Two problems with Mathis' model are: 1) all of the stacked spins involve just one photon, so why would the mass increase just from making the photon's spin more complicated? 2) Mathis' model of atoms relies on spinning proton disks, but he actually regards them as spheres, and it's hard to see how they can be considered stable disks, if they're nearly spherical.
- The model above solves both of those problems, but it doesn't distinguish between electrons, protons and neutrons formed from disks of photons. Maybe an electron would be a smaller disk of photons, and a proton would be a larger disk. But what would a neutron be? Why would it not emit photons just as protons do? It should be the size of a proton and an electron combined.
Flanagan's Smoke Ring Atoms
* G. Patrick Flanagan had a somewhat similar model of subatomic particles. He thought they might be like smoke rings, which are spinning toruses, where the spin is around the circular cross section. The arrows in the following diagram show what I mean better.
http://sites.sinauer.com/animalcommunication2e/images/07/WT07.02VortexRing.jpg
Image
- In this diagram the spin is inward from the top. To make an electron there'd need to be a ring spinning outward from the top placed on top of this ring. This would pull in aether from the equator and push it out at the poles (where the hole is). A proton would be arranged oppositely with the second ring below the first ring, making aether come in at the poles and go out at the equator. A neutron would be a third ring on top or bottom, supposedly neutralizing the aether movement, which is somewhat similar to what Mathis' model does.
Photon Blob Disks = Electrons and Protons?
* My first model above could produce a ring, if the central photon were removed and if the ring photons were somehow made to spin vertically instead of horizontally. But I don't think Flanagan's model is very realistic, since the neutron doesn't seem to be all that neutralized.
- My first model could also produce stacked spins, like Mathis', if a disk of photons were somehow made to spin along the horizontal axis. I imagine a disk could be spun that way, if it were hit by a photon from a fairly vertical direction. But would the vertically spinning horizontal disk then fill in with photons to form a spherical blob of photons? I suppose it would for the same reason that the initial outer ring of photons would form. In that case the larger sphere of photons might form a disk, just as the initial photon did, by drawing in surrounding photons, but this time by drawing in surrounding spherical blobs of photons.
* Well, this looks somewhat promising.
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Re: Photons Form Atoms

Unread postby Lloyd » Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:25 pm

Image
1. The hexagonal disk of photons model on the upper left is a central hexagon of spinning photons surrounded by 6 more photon hexagons.
2. The circle of photons model at center bottom is a "phoball", a ball of photons, where a hexagon disk of 7 photons is spun on the horizontal axis to make a sphere. The spinning motion produces an additional low pressure above and below the disk, causing 3 more photons to join above and 3 below the disk, with 13 in all.
3. At the upper right is a hexagonal phoball disk model, with 7 phoballs forming the hexagonal shape.
4. The numbers in first row at lower right show the number of photons in one photon, one hexagonal disk of photons, one phoball (13), one phoball disk (91), one biphoball (a ball of phoballs) (169), one biphoball disk (1183), and one triphoball (2197). The numbers in the second row show the number of photons, where the center disk photons are missing. I reasoned that a disk could remain a disk, if the center photon were knocked out by a speeding photon. The point of the calculations was to see if I could come up with 1836 photons somehow, since protons are said to be 1836 times as massive as electrons, while neutrons are 1837 times as massive. Mathis probably has a much more elegant way to show the difference in mass, which I read before but don't recall in any detail. I just remember that he came up with 1820, instead of 1836, which is very close. If I get time to look up his argument, I may do so.
* Now the question is: would any of the above disks show the properties of electrons and protons?
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