Dating of events...

Plasma formations in the ancient sky. The role of planets as charged bodies in these formations. Ground-rules for drawing reliable conclusions. A new approach to the mythic archetypes: is a unified theory of world mythology possible?

Levels of Confidence

Unread postby Lloyd » Fri May 09, 2008 8:13 pm

- Dave, I'm for that! I want to find all the relevant info that has high levels of confidence.
- But what am I? A courtroom observer? And you're what? The prosecutor, or defense attorney? And who are the witnesses? The ancients? And what's the evidence? What they drew and painted and carved on rocks and the structures they made and the hearsay passed down through their descendants? I'd like to be a member of the jury and get to see and hear all the evidence, but I don't get a lot of time. Maybe I will eventually, if the case drags on long enough.
- Let's say I'm on the jury, but my mind was wandering during the trial, so, when it's time for the jury to reach a verdict, I have to ask other members of the jury if they can fill me in on some of the evidence or reasoning that I didn't notice or understand.
- You sound like you're tending to try to confine discussion here to the members of the prosecution or defense team. What about that?
- Should we wear nametags that show what our roles are in this case? And should we label each item of discussion with levels of confidence? Like Hi, Med, or Lo? I'm willing to try such things, since I think discipline and organization greatly increase the effectiveness of group efforts.
- Do you have time to put such labels on more of our discussions? For example:
1. Saturn was originally seen as a dim reddish ball near the horizon - Lo
Saturn originally wandered in the sky - Hi
2. then Saturn went to the stationary polar position - Hi
3. then it became surrounded by a circular cloud, the ouroboros - Hi
which was from Venus circling Saturn - Hi?
4. then Venus moved to the center of Saturn's face - Hi?
And how about a range of dates for minima and maxima?
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Re: Dating of events...

Unread postby David Talbott » Sat May 10, 2008 9:01 am

It's pretty simple at the moment Lloyd. Confining discussion is an inescapable requirement--even up to the level that many folks may object. Been around the block enough to know that until people have a reasonably clear picture, unconstrained discussion of myth will invariably grow so chaotically that no one will know where the solid ground is. Once sufficient solid ground is in place, the picture changes completely, however. So containing discussion at the outset is needed, but not forever.

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Re: Dating of events...

Unread postby GaryN » Mon May 12, 2008 1:31 pm

I'm not sure if this will pass muster in this forum, but some Greek mythology does support what I feel is the truth of Earths past.

"Plato's text Timaeus records Critias describing Solon being criticised by the Egyptian priests for thinking that he knew it all:

First, you remember a single deluge only, but there were many previous ones; in the next place, you do not know that there formerly dwelt in your land the fairest and noblest race of men which ever lived, and that you and your whole city are descended from a small seed or remnant of them which survived. And this was unknown to you, because, for many generations, the survivors of that destruction died, leaving no written word. For there was a time, Solon, before the great deluge of all, when the city which now is Athens was first in war and in every way the best governed of all cities, is said to have performed the noblest deeds and to have had the fairest constitution of any of which tradition tells, under the face of heaven."

This is from an article at:

http://www.hammerwood.mistral.co.uk/elgin.htm

The relevance to this forum I feel, is that the 'great deluge of all' would have been around the time that the Earth was last passing through the central plane of the Milky way.
Greek myth also alludes to the Gods having to occasionally step in and 'reinvigorate' life on earth.
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Re: Dating of events...

Unread postby moses » Mon May 12, 2008 10:26 pm

The relevance to this forum I feel, is that the 'great deluge of all' would have been around the time that the Earth was last passing through the central plane of the Milky way.
Do you mean when the Solar System last passed through the central plane ?
Seems a long time ago.
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Re: Dating of events...

Unread postby SciRPG » Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:03 am

I'd like to chime in.
I recall a while back reading up on the theory of the "Nemesis" star (Richard A. Muller)
There was some interesting information on dates brought up by David Raup and Jack Sepkoski showing time-line events of mass extinctions:
http://muller.lbl.gov/pages/lbl-nem.htm

It might be possible with some careful study, to get some possible dates.

It would be interesting to think that what Muller has been seeking (the Nemesis star) might in fact be Saturn.
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Re: Dating of events...

Unread postby Steve Smith » Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:47 pm

If I may anticipate Dave Talbott....

Dating events is highly problematic, especially when the conventional sciences (such as the reserchers who authored the cited papers) prefer to think in "billions of years". The Moon's current topography is probably extremely young and not ancient beyond comprehension. Again, the "lunar impact" theory ignores the foundational proposition of the EU hypothesis, that the catastrophic events of the past took place around 5000 years ago (maybe less).

Because the "oscillation" of the Solar System though the galactic plane is theorized to take place over "millions of years", once again the point is missed and the question is begged. In my opinion, a method for providing a chronology that involves coordinating timelines from archaeology, anthropology, geology, astronomy, history, etc. will never be created. The system (that is, the overall "thing" we call the history of our planet) has been reduced to a chaotic state in the recent past.

All clocks have been scrambled and none of them have the correct time any longer. They do not correspond to one another; thus, tree-rings and C-14 and glacial varves etc. do not correspond to the archaeological or geological theories that those methodologies are supposed to support. Using astronomical calculations is no better, since the sky is not what it once was.
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Re: Dating of events...

Unread postby David Talbott » Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:40 pm

I think you're right Steve.

We do need to make one thing clear, however. When it comes to remembered events, a tentative date for their conclusion around 5000 years ago is not unreasonable. But of course, earth catastrophes that were not included in the mythological record could have occurred any number of times over almost any span of time one might want to consider. As you say, dating issues over geologic time frames must be reconsidered from the ground up, given the role of electricity in sculpting surfaces of planets and moons.

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Did Humans and Dinosaurs co-exist?

Unread postby Lloyd » Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:06 pm

Dave, Velikovsky had an article in one of the first issues of Kronos magazine in which he considered that some of the large dinosaurs may have been mammals. Didn't he also consider that dinosaurs may have lived into the time of humans? I recall him mentioning in the article that biologists initially considered the plant life extant at the time of the later dinosaurs to be recent. If he did consider later dinosaurs to have lived into the time of humans, do you agree that it's possible? And, if so, can you estimate a probability? I think Native Americans of the U.S. Southwest left a petroglyph of a large dinosaur. And I think Barry Fell mentioned an ancient American artifact that depicted a dinosaur. See also http://www.hope-of-israel.org/dinosaur.htm. At this site http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v19/i3/musicman.asp it says: The Liscomb Bone Bed has probably thousands of frozen unfossilized dinosaur bones — some of them have the ligaments still attached. This site http://www.christiananswers.net/dinosaurs/alaska/trip-jul18.html says
The Liscomb bone bed has produced the most important dinosaur remains from Alaska. We collected bones on and below the surface. We found both fossilized and unfossilized bones. We dug down about three feet to get to the bones frozen in permafrost. It was the frozen unfossilized bones we were seeking for our research, although we collected some fossilized bones as well. Both types were found together (I'm not sure how to explain it).

This one http://www.genesispark.org/genpark/old/old.htm says:
Carbon 14 is used to date fossils and other rocks that were once living things. Very precise dating from mass spectrometer analysis has substantiated the presence of Carbon 14 in dinosaur bones. Some have suggested that the samples became contaminated with modern Carbon 14. But it has also substantiated that Carboniferous coal carefully extracted from deep within mines still contains Carbon 14! This is dramatic evidence of youthfulness since all of the detectable Carbon 14 should have decayed within 100,000 years. (Baumgardner, Fifth ICC Paper, 2003.)

This site http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t39641.html
has some pretty good photos of human footprints in a rock layer that cross a line of dinosaur tracks in the same layer.
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Re: Dating of events...

Unread postby moses » Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:19 am

Seems to me like the Saturn System evidence is from the last 7,000 years or so,
and before that is very unknown and not particularly a part of this forum. But,
of course, the origins of humanity are of immense importance, it's just that the
Saturn System stuff doesn't deal with that. Any supposed very advanced
civilization on Earth ( or Mars ), came before the Saturn System evidence.

And so I'm not a fan of theorising the entry of Saturn into the Solar System. It
was way long ago, if it happenned. And dinosaurs were around in the late stages
of the formation of the geological column, which was well before the Saturn System
evidence, but if these sediments were formed by electrical gouging out of the oceans
then this implies that the Saturn System was existing at that time. It sounds like a
dangerous time too, so maybe not too good for civilization. I guess that we are
looking for extremely old evidence to try to work out the origins of humanity. Maybe
the Great Pyramid was only given a face-lift 4,000 years ago.

That there was a Saturn System and electrical interactions between planets, is
wild enough, even without giving the origins of humanity.
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Re: Dating of events...

Unread postby nick c » Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:01 am

hello Mo,
But,
of course, the origins of humanity are of immense importance, it's just that the
Saturn System stuff doesn't deal with that.

Because if, myth relates to us what was experienced by our ancestors, then they could only tell us what took place within the context of that experience, not what conditions existed before their experience. If that is the case, then myth will be of little use in determining the origins of humanity.

Seems to me like the Saturn System evidence is from the last 7,000 years or so,
and before that is very unknown and not particularly a part of this forum.

Or 5,000 years ago, or 10,000 years ago...more or less? Any dating at this point can only be speculative, not that it shouldn't be discussed, but it must be seen for what it is...an equation with many unknowns...a field in need of new criteria (standards for dating.) Establishing a sequence of events presents less problems than attempting to establish absolute dates.
In my opinion, a good starting point is the end, that is, when was the present order of the solar system established? and working backward from there... or put another way, when was the last (of a long series) planetary encounter?
Again, my personal opinion, is that this ending, and beginning of the present world age, occured well within the time of recorded history, and consequently an idea of the time frame can be estimated by resorting to non-mythical sources, the mythical (Saturn Myth) framework and events that inspired it was already established and probably finalized, and these last catastrophes were the last small adjustments to the order of the solar system and minor by comparison.
Some examples, an incomplete list that only scratches the surface:
-Egyptian sun dials, that in order to work as designed have to have a gnomon at an angle corresponding to the latitude of its' location, this is not the case
-Egyptian water clocks, which show the length of the day to have
consistent differences from those measured today
-The signs of the current astrological zodiac are out of synch with the constellations because of precession, it can be retrocalculated back to the point where they were synchronized (if memory serves me, the 7th C BCE.) This can be interpreted as the point when the ancients needed to determine the "new order" of the solar system. This 'uniformitarian' retrocalculation would be valid, because it does not cross the boundary of world ages.
-Venus Tablets of Amizaduga- 17 years of Babylonian observations of
the planet Venus. No mythical references, no interpretations, just a dry record of appearances and disappearances of Venus that do not conform and cannot be made to fit present movements of Venus.
-Babylonian reports of the latitudes of Babylon and Ninevah
-Numerous ancient references, decrees, and stele that lament over the changes in the movements of the planets resulting in irregularities in the appearance of the seasons, necessitating changes in calenders.
-Alterations to temples and obelisks that were oriented astronomically, because they no longer had valid alignments
-Greek and Etruscan vases that have a remnant magnetic field orientation that is the opposite of today
-numerous references to the pole star being in the Big Dipper, even though all retrocalculations of precession show that this should not be the case

A small sampling of "hard" evidence in support of the premise that the series of catastrophes was completed in historical times. Looked at in this light, it must be considered that the body of myth and rituals associated with the polar configuration may have been already established and finalized before the series of catastrophic events were completed? The reordering of the solar system may have spanned thousands of years.

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Dinosaurs in the Golden Age

Unread postby Lloyd » Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:56 pm

- Anyone who doesn't want to read about dinosaurs in the time of humans is free not to. But the subject is relevant to the Saturn Myth in any case, since life on Earth before the catastrophic era was apparently in the Saturn system instead of the solar system. Besides that, there seems to be evidence that the end of the dinosaurs may have come during the catastrophic era when the original Saturn system was coming to an end within the solar system.
- It's questionable whether there were catastrophes in the Saturn system before it entered the solar system. If warmth and atmosphere give some indication of ages of planetoids, then Venus would be very young, maybe 7 to 10 thousand years old, Titan maybe the same age or a few thousand years older, and Earth a few thousand more years older. If the other gas giants were not part of the Saturn system, there would have been few bodies in the system when the Earth arrived, presumably ejected from Saturn. There would have been much fewer, if any, asteroids. The Kuiper belt was probably part of the solar system all along, I think. There would have been only Saturn and its moons [excluding Titan], Earth and its moon, Mars and maybe Mercury in the Saturn system. Earth's biosphere apparently would have survived on mostly red light from Saturn, which was a red or brown dwarf.
- So, if there were no major catastrophes on Earth before 10 thousand or so years ago, and if the dinosaurs were killed by such catastrophes, then they died during the catastrophic era when Saturn approached the sun. The rock drawings of dinosaurs and numerous other references in my last post on this thread are certainly evidence of dinosaurs co-existing with humans. How many thousands of years can rock drawings last even in a desert or cave? Someone should do a computer simulation of that.
- And did no one find the info about both fossilized and unfossilized dinosaur bones in the same bone bed in Alaska interesting? How long can unfossilized bones last? If freezing prevents bones from fossilizing, how long would the dinosaur bones in Alaska have been frozen? I bet not much over 10 thousand years. I think Alaska was warm a few thousand years ago, as was the far north of Canada and Antarctica. I think Dave Talbott suggested in Thoth at kronia.com that the ice age began after the Great Flood and the flood occurred when the polar column was severed from Saturn, which I think was 5 thousand or so years ago.
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Re: Dating of events...

Unread postby moses » Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:24 pm

A small sampling of "hard" evidence in support of the premise that the series of catastrophes was completed in historical times. Looked at in this light, it must be considered that the body of myth and rituals associated with the polar configuration may have been already established and finalized before the series of catastrophic events were completed? The reordering of the solar system may have spanned thousands of years.
Nick

Undoubtably it took thousands of years to reorder the Solar System. The main
question that I have is whether the ice caps were totally formed in this period.
A plane that went down in WW2 was found to be 250 metres below the ice surface.
With a somewhat increased rate of precipitation in the reordering period the entire
ice cap could have been formed in a couple of thousand years.

The ending of the reordering at around 700BC seems to be a pretty severe event,
or series of events, rather than a minor adjustment. Jno Cook may have got a lot
wrong in his historical reconstruction, but one really gets a feel for events reading
his work. This history of the Earth and humanity involves a lot of catastrophes.
Some caused severe hardship, some killed many, and some might have killed just
about everyone, or maybe all ! So humanity probably has gone through great
genetic and epigenetic changes. What did we start out like ? And can we reverse
all these genetic changes ? This is what drives me. Finding that mythology only
describes more trauma that humanity has undergone, without getting to the real
fundamentals of the beginning of humanity, is a disappointment. Every bit of
understanding helps, though.

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Re: Did Humans and Dinosaurs co-exist?

Unread postby SciRPG » Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:07 pm

Lloyd wrote:This site http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t39641.html
has some pretty good photos of human footprints in a rock layer that cross a line of dinosaur tracks in the same layer.


Lloyd, I'm wondering if those "dinosaur" tracks are actually tracks of large flightless birds, might explain it.

Dave, its frightening to think that all of our abilities to dating fossils, moon impacts, and ancient man-made structures could all be flawed... is there any possible method of validating dates that anyone can think of?
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Re: Dating of events...

Unread postby nick c » Wed Jun 04, 2008 8:48 pm

Hello Lloyd,
Dave, Velikovsky had an article in one of the first issues of Kronos magazine in which he considered that some of the large dinosaurs may have been mammals. Didn't he also consider that dinosaurs may have lived into the time of humans?


The article was in Kronos II, #2...pp91-100
"Were All Dinosaurs Reptiles?" Immanuel Velikovsky
The article was consolidated from two articles, one from 1941 and one from 1951, and has sections titled:
'Brontosaurus Was A Mammal'...warm blooded dinosaurs, sauropods may have given live birth and nursed young
'Extinction of the Dinosaurs'....change in the felt effect of gravity
'Dinosaurs In the Age of Man?'...evidence that ancients depicted dinosaurs in pictographs and folklore

Another much shorter related article is available at the Velikovsky Archive, however, it deals only with the mention of giant animals in Hebrew lore
http://www.varchive.org/ce/shamir/gianim.htm

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Re: Dating of events...

Unread postby webolife » Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:26 pm

SciRPG wrote:
"...its frightening to think that all of our abilities to dating fossils, moon impacts, and ancient man-made structures could all be flawed... is there any possible method of validating dates that anyone can think of?"

Here's my take as a traditionally trained earth science major interested in alternative catastrophic scenarios:
Why "frightening"? It is not our abilities per se that are flawed, nor our methods.
All scientific pursuits proceed from the bias of the researcher. If this were not true, no-one would ever care about a "scientific consensus", or the law of big numbers. Human error and bias enters into all scientific pursuits. Macroevolution demands that long time periods be allowed for the presumed and improbable accumulation of beneficial mutations. Hence, uniformitarian assumptions about present slow gradual processes extended into the indefinite past are the "rule" of [post] modern science, which holds the evolutionary paradigm as a central dogma. This paradigm has its tentacles in every branch of science from microbiology to astronomy, so it's hard to find any solid information that has been untainted by it. From the time we were all old enough to hear and understand it, say age 2?, we all "knew" that the dinosaurs ruled the earth and became extinct 65 million years ago. How can anyone credibly dispute what "everyone knows"?
Radiometric decay rates are fairly well understood and accepted by all researchers. Take the common example of Uranium-Lead decay dating, which has a half-life of 4.5 billion yrs. What must be assumed, however, is that the original isotope ratios of Uranium to Lead are knowable, and to be specific, there was no daughter product present at the beginnning of the process. What we actually find, on Earth, Moon, and meteorites, is a ratio of roughly 50/50, indicating ages ranging from 3.8 to 4.7 billion years, depending on the particular sample.
But what if nature was primed with adequate amounts of the daughter Lead such that conditions for the preservation of life on Earth were favored, versus conditions of fatally toxic radiation. Radioactive decay in its present stage produces a nice warm crust without the toxicity that would eradicate life. A 50/50 ratio of U/Pb appears to ensure this. What is alluded to occasionally on these forums is another assumption, that the decay process has never been altered (catastrophically or otherwise) to a significant degree. Discordia curves derived from radiometric sampling show that the decay process has been altered/interupted at least once in nearly every situation being dated. Electricity experts have contributed a number of posts indicating that electric currents and or crustal lightning are capable of radically "fast-forwarding" the decay process, yielding far older than actual ages. If telluric currents are common, as may be associated with crustal pressure, upheavel, tectonics, etc., such resettings of parent/daughter decay ratios could be a (predictable?) worldwide phenomenon.
Regardless, forums such as this are all about shifting paradigms. If the ~50/50 U/Pb ratio we see throughout the earth and solar system are primordial (or nearly so) then the method "proves" that the whole system is "young". If no daughter products were present at the beginning, then decay altering electrical processes prevent us from knowing just how long the process has been occurring, regardless of how secure the decay rate is. Close examination of other radiometric methods yields similar questions and assumptions. Radiometric carbon (C-14), the darling of archaelologists, is based on a further assumption that rates of C-14 mixing between the upper atmosphere and lower have been constant throughout time, and that this represents an equilibrium of production and assimilation by organisms at the surface, despite the recognition that this equilibirum does not presently exist. Dates back to about 5000 BP are confirmed by historical findings, but prior to that time many possible catastrophic scenarios have been offered, any or all of which could have drastically increased present rates of C-12, or increased the assimilation of C-14 from the upper atmosphere. Lower C-14 rates in the distant past, or higher C-12 rates in the recent past, say up until 5000 BP, would yield higher ages for any carboniferous artifacts or soils dated by this method.
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.
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