Sun's Almost Perfectly Round Shape Baffles Scientists

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Michael Mozina
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Re: Sun's Almost Perfectly Round Shape Baffles Scientists

Unread post by Michael Mozina » Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:34 pm

Lloyd wrote:* Space.com says at http://www.space.com/17001-how-big-is-t ... e-sun.html that "The sun is nearly a perfect sphere. Its equatorial diameter and its polar diameter differ by only 6.2 miles (10 km)." Is that the new finding? I assume the polar diameter is the smaller one. The Earth's equatorial and polar diameters differ by 27 miles [43 km].
Questions for Michael
* Michael, you and Brant agree that the Sun is probably solid iron under the photosphere. But isn't the conventional diameter of the Sun taken from the top of the photosphere. You say the solid surface is over 4,000 km below the photosphere and Brant says it's 600 km below.
Yep. :)
* It seems to me that it must be electrical properties that account for the roundness of the photosphere, since the photosphere itself isn't solid. Otherwise, wouldn't the top of the photosphere be expected to be more oblate due to the Sun's rotation?
There are two primary forces at play, gravity and EM fields. The mass separation and double layering effect caused by the EM fields around the sun are what you're describing in terms of making the "atmosphere" round. Then again, the atmosphere just follows the contours and basic shape of the relatively round surface.
* If Earth is oblate even though it's solid, why would the Sun be rounder than the Earth, if it's solid under the photosphere?
Again, I think that's due to the tendency for the atmosphere to mass separate and form concentric double layers in the atmosphere. The plasma roundness has a lot to do with the EM fields around the sun, not just gravity and momentum. It's also unlikely IMO that the actual density of the surface of the photosphere is as light/thin as predicted in standard theory.

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Re: Sun's Almost Perfectly Round Shape Baffles Scientists

Unread post by sjw40364 » Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:35 am

I believe it is most likely a molten solid mass below the surface, and at any time parts of this mass of varying sizes may be ejected which form the planets as we know them. The Sun pulls in plasma from the surrounding space, and it is only a matter of time before it reaches it's limit as to how much mass the current can contain and excess is ejected.

Of course this ejection of proto-planets may disrupt planetary orbits and also possibly explain past extinction events and theories on planets once existing in different orbits.

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Re: Sun's Almost Perfectly Round Shape Baffles Scientists

Unread post by Michael Mozina » Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:41 pm

sjw40364 wrote:I believe it is most likely a molten solid mass below the surface, and at any time parts of this mass of varying sizes may be ejected which form the planets as we know them. The Sun pulls in plasma from the surrounding space, and it is only a matter of time before it reaches it's limit as to how much mass the current can contain and excess is ejected.

Of course this ejection of proto-planets may disrupt planetary orbits and also possibly explain past extinction events and theories on planets once existing in different orbits.
FYI, your opinions about planet formation are congruent with Birkeland's beliefs as well. The overall charge of the mass body dictates the directional movement of material according to Birkeland.

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Re: Sun's Almost Perfectly Round Shape Baffles Scientists

Unread post by Lloyd » Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:17 pm

Steve said: I believe it [the Sun] is most likely a molten solid mass below the surface, and at any time parts of this mass of varying sizes may be ejected which form the planets as we know them. The Sun pulls in plasma from the surrounding space, and it is only a matter of time before it reaches it's limit as to how much mass the current can contain and excess is ejected.
* That's off-topic and conflicts with the EU team's findings, which state that Earth was a moon of Saturn outside the Solar System before joining the system about 10,000 years ago. You should discuss this on an appropriate thread.

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Re: Sun's Almost Perfectly Round Shape Baffles Scientists

Unread post by sjw40364 » Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:09 pm

Yah well, other stars can eject rouge planets too, capture is always a possibility as well. But I also know that quasars and Arp's galactic cluster models support ejection quite favorably for an EM model. As well as does plasma laboratory experiments. The Sun as well is constantly trying to eject material in CME's. And if one day a planet sized mass came flying out it might kill me but I wouldn't be surprised. :)

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Re: Sun's Almost Perfectly Round Shape Baffles Scientists

Unread post by Michael Mozina » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:56 am

sjw40364 wrote:Yah well, other stars can eject rouge planets too, capture is always a possibility as well. But I also know that quasars and Arp's galactic cluster models support ejection quite favorably for an EM model. As well as does plasma laboratory experiments. The Sun as well is constantly trying to eject material in CME's. And if one day a planet sized mass came flying out it might kill me but I wouldn't be surprised. :)
FYI, in Birkeland's concept of planetary evolution, the cathode sun doesn't necessarily have to eject giant chunks of material all at once, it just has to emit a steady source of heavy elements over time that 'collect over time' into larger objects. 100 years ago Birkeland was already talking about an ancient universe that is full of electrical processes. CME's from the sun certainly kick out large amounts of material, but they aren't necessarily a threat to life on Earth. Most of the particles in the solar wind and CME events are lighter elements and therefore not much of a threat to our planet thanks to our magnetosphere.

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Re: Sun's Almost Perfectly Round Shape Baffles Scientists

Unread post by sjw40364 » Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:30 am

Michael Mozina wrote:
sjw40364 wrote:Yah well, other stars can eject rouge planets too, capture is always a possibility as well. But I also know that quasars and Arp's galactic cluster models support ejection quite favorably for an EM model. As well as does plasma laboratory experiments. The Sun as well is constantly trying to eject material in CME's. And if one day a planet sized mass came flying out it might kill me but I wouldn't be surprised. :)
FYI, in Birkeland's concept of planetary evolution, the cathode sun doesn't necessarily have to eject giant chunks of material all at once, it just has to emit a steady source of heavy elements over time that 'collect over time' into larger objects. 100 years ago Birkeland was already talking about an ancient universe that is full of electrical processes. CME's from the sun certainly kick out large amounts of material, but they aren't necessarily a threat to life on Earth. Most of the particles in the solar wind and CME events are lighter elements and therefore not much of a threat to our planet thanks to our magnetosphere.
And galaxies emit this same source of heavy elements and plasma jets, yet at times they still eject quasars and other objects. I still believe planetary formation is mostly an ejection event and not a gradual build-up over eons.
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2007/ ... ection.htm
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2004/ ... galaxy.htm
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2004/ ... rs-m82.htm

Why would I think the solar system works any differently?

zeuz
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Re: Sun's Almost Perfectly Round Shape Baffles Scientists

Unread post by zeuz » Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:53 pm

It didn't baffle them. They just observed it and the press reported on this unique property.

The perfectly round shape is a result of the strong gravitational force acting as a point source. The more complex exterior effects are all plasma related, but the shape implies nothing more than gravity is doing it's job, I believe.

What should baffle them is the fact that the sun has inflow events and highly irratic circuits that imply it does burn itself out over its lifetime but instead gains some of its fuel from 'solar inflow events' periodically. As I outlined here in this post on jref a while back:

[QUOTE=Zeuzzz;3744347]This is what I'm not so sure of personally. In theory there should be this definitive region, but from where I see it the solar wind is a plasma and should not diffuse out into a definitive spherical morphology, as it should retain its filamentary structure as the currents in the wind interact with the the surrounding plasma currents in the ISM. From what I've seen there are many theories about the heliopause, but no sort of proof, and no detection of a definitive shock wave. Wiki says; The heliopause is the theoretical boundary where the Sun's solar wind is stopped by the interstellar medium; where the solar wind's strength is no longer great enough to push back the stellar winds of the surrounding stars.

And one of the hypothesis that it lists is; "An alternative definition is that the heliopause is the magnetopause between the solar system's magnetosphere and the galaxy's plasma currents." Which implies to me that the boundary is not as set in stone as the theory implies, local EM forces and interactions between the filaments should pervade this region, with the direction and pressure of the wind varying drastically depending on the local pressure, ionization, composition of the dust particles, EM forces, and plasma instabilities in question.

[quote snip]

I prefer Alfvens current disruption method, partly because the reconnection rate is always arbitrarily set, positive ions are likely to be unmagnetized in the central part of the plasma sheet (indicating that the frozen-in-field concept is not valid there), the Bu approach does not include all current driven process's as Amperes law is associated with a non zero curl, and other reasons, mainly that I find the interaction of two lines that are arbitrarily put in by us somewhat meaningless.

Pickup ions at the edges of the solar system were a fairly well established effect? Its essentially a similar process to the CIV effect, but does not require as high a charge flow to be involved between the two objects in question.

Interstellar Pick-Up Ions

Physical origin of pickup currents

Voyager observations of the magnetic field, interstellar pickup ions and solar wind in the distant heliosphere

And a very similar pickup ion process on spacecraft has shown evidence of a cross current instability prodcued by the pickup ion process; http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/login ... pdf?temp=x which is another EM force that may shape the structure of the solar wind to something other than a clear defined spherical shock.

I guess my main problem is that current theories only include the possibility of outward going particles, and exclude the possibility of incoming particles to the solar system, which would effect the overall structure. We know that Solar inflow events are now a well documented phenomenon (ref), of superhot "gas" (ie, plasma) flowing into the sun, against the predominant direction of the solar wind, and these events are in an area where the ram pressure and density of the solar of the wind is very considerable, if these events can flow against this outward flow right next to the sun, it seems much more likely to be occuring on a larger scale at larger radii where the pressure is less (as density and ram pressure drop off with r as r[sup]-2[/sup]). Its also known that the electrons in the solar wind tend to mill around with no preffered direction, their average velocity will be outwards with the ions in the solar wind, as they will couple with the vast majority of the protons in the solar wind due to electrostatic attraction, making any set area of the solar 'wind' overall largely neutral. However, recent discoveries of electron depletion in the solar wind due to “backstreaming electrons” flowing into the Sun from the surrounding medium were not expected, which have been found to be roughly symmetric about a 90° pitch angle relative to the heliospheric magnetic field. And SOHO has found ""jet streams" or "rivers" of hot, electrically charged gas called plasma flowing beneath the surface of the Sun." (ref), much faster than would be expected from standard convection, implying electrcial activity could be shaping these fast inflows.

Backstreaming Electrons Associated With Solar Electron Bursts





Although you dont get much mention of particles in the solar wind travelling the opposite direction than usual, there are many separate occurences of this happening which have been attributed to various theories, which does lend credence to Alfvens heliospheric current circuit model for stars. Especially since electron depletion and backstreaming has been observed to be related to the heliospheric current sheet, and the heliospheric current sheet has been known to generate dark currents (filaments) for a good few years now "we study the typical structure, configuration, and dynamics of the interplanetary dis- turbance generated by the interaction of disappearing solar filaments with the heliospheric current sheet (HCS) and a flare using the most geoefficient (Ap = 56 nT, Dst = –166 nT) solar-activity event in 1997 as an example." (K. G. Ivanov and E. P. Romashets, 1998)

[quote snip]

Thanks for the response. My line of thinking is that if the magnetosphere of the solar system is anything like the magnetosphere of planets we now know that a vital component of magnetospheres are the Birkeland current systems that they support. All planets have very high current inputs at their poles, essentially what causes the auroras, and these currents have very recently been found to directly connect the poles of Earth to the sun, transferring over 650,000 Amps. In 2007, the Themis satellite "found evidence of magnetic ropes connecting Earth's upper atmosphere directly to the sun [in which] a burst of electrical current within the solar wind will hit the bow shock and—Bang! We get an explosion" (ref, ref A few interesting models that try to build a full Birkeland current circuit for planets magnetospheres based on the charge transfer and EM forces between them have been proposed previously, but I dont think that any conclusive models have been put forward as of yet (though, I may be wrong on this)


http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/1998/97JA02880.shtml




Heres a few more publications which consider this circuit based approach (Alfvens type of approach) to Birkeland current formations in magnetospheres;

Mercury's Birkeland current system

Birkeland current system key parameters derived from Iridium observations

Auroral structures at Jupiter and Earth

Alfvén wave coupling in the auroral current circuit

What Supports Parallel Electric Fields in Birkeland Current Regions?

Transition current systems in the Earth’s and Saturn’s magnetospheres


I believe that the full birkeland current circuit of magnetospheres is still an open question, but the incoming current input into the poles of planets seems to be consistant with all local magnetospheres, and so should imply that a similar effect occurs on the sun. Radio waves, ultra violet radiation and polar jets are all known to emanate from the suns poles, and what causes coronal holes is also considered a bit of a mystery. And the observation of bright points on the suns poles and the consequent activity certainly implies this.

http://www.mssl.ucl.ac.uk/~db2/Culhane_PASJ07.pdf


Which is nearly exactly what has been observed on Jupiter, this same type of bright spot directly on the pole;

http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/animation/PIA03452
[qimg]http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/browse/PIA03452.gif[/qimg]

[qimg]http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/9418 ... medfo1.jpg[/qimg]

So could the sun contain similar Birkeland current formations thoughout the solar system in its magnetosphere? Just like the currents we know enter the planets from their various magnetospheric current systems. I think its likely, we only just discovered the currents right here on Earth, its going to be a lot harder to assertain the current system of the sun where the background radiation makes it harder to see whats going on than on planets. And the currents seemingly only become energetic enough to become visible in the corona, right next to the sun, they are more diffuse further out and so are very hard to detect, often reffered to as 'dark currents' as they emit no known detectable radiation [like the ones connecting the Earth to the sun which are very hard to see]. If this does turn out correct, it has implications for the nuclear fusion model of stars and their lifetimes, as the source of the suns energy may be from an external source, from particles in the local galactic environment, not burning up exclusively internal energy it already possesses. This is probably why the idea was dismissed initially, and due to Alfvens other controversial ideas too...

The question that remains is what is the definitive solar circuit? Is the current reversable in this system, does it work both ways? Can properties of this varying current input explain the suns 22 year cycle? (see this: Does the solar wind affect the solar cycle?) Or the reversal of polarity? I think that many of the outstanding questions of solar physics could be answered by applying the effects of the heliospheric current circuit to current models.[/QUOTE]

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Mr_Majestic
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Re: Sun's Almost Perfectly Round Shape Baffles Scientists

Unread post by Mr_Majestic » Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:11 am

Wow, this thread's still going? I wasn't expecting this much feedback. :)

Thanks for all the information, this have given me a lot to mull over.

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Re: Sun's Almost Perfectly Round Shape Baffles Scientists

Unread post by David Talbott » Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:24 am

Folks, you might keep your eye out for a news item coming up on the ThunderboltsProject YouTube Channel within the next couple of days: Jim Johnson and Mel Acheoson discussing this very issue of the "Sun that is Too Round."

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Re: Sun's Almost Perfectly Round Shape Baffles Scientists

Unread post by kiwi » Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:31 pm

David Talbott wrote:Folks, you might keep your eye out for a news item coming up on the ThunderboltsProject YouTube Channel within the next couple of days: Jim Johnson and Mel Acheoson discussing this very issue of the "Sun that is Too Round."
baring in mind :? ... http://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum/phpB ... f=3&t=6355
[snip] ---Plasma flows with less than one metre per second
The team of scientists from the Max Planck Institute for Solar System Research, Princeton University, NASA’s Goddard Flight Center and New York University was able to determine the flow velocities at a depth of 55000 kilometres, which is eight percent of the solar radius. Surprisingly, the flow velocities of the plasma were found to be less than a few meters per second. Gizon puts this into perspective saying “This is a hundred times less than predicted by numerical models of solar convection”.

The key to these new results was data from NASA’s space probe SDO, which has been observing the Sun’s surface since early 2010. The scientists analysed data from the Helioseismic and Magnetic Imager (HMI) onboard SDO. The analysis was only possible due to the combination of high resolution and full spatial coverage of the observations. The huge amount of data collected by HMI - thousands of high-resolution images of the whole Sun per day - are archived and processed in the German Data Center for SDO hosted at the Max Planck Institute for Solar System Research, a unique facility in Europe.

Acoustic waves in the sun reveal the velocity of convection currents

HMI measures the velocity of the Sun's surface. When a solar acoustic wave trapped within the Sun reaches the surface, it causes the surface to move – and can thus be detected by HMI. In this way, the scientists were able to measure the time it takes for solar acoustic waves to travel from a point on the solar surface through the interior to another point on the surface. Convective flows affect the speed of propagation of the waves. Hence, it is possible to learn about the velocities of the convective flows in the solar interior from measurements of wave travel times. Modelling the interaction of solar acoustic waves with convection is a topic of current research, undertaken within the German Research Foundation’s Collaborative Research Center “Astrophysical flow instabilities and Turbulence” at the Max Planck Institute for Solar System Research and the University of Göttingen.

Gizon says “The unexpectedly small velocities measured using helioseismology are the most noteworthy helioseismology result since the launch of HMI”. Adds Birch, “There is no clear way to reconcile the observations and theory”. Gizon then concludes “This result not only sheds a new light on the Sun – but also on our current inability to understand one of the most fundamental physical processes in the Sun and stars: convection”. http://phys.org/news/2012-07-unexpected ... rface.html

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Re: Sun's Almost Perfectly Round Shape Baffles Scientists

Unread post by CharlesChandler » Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:08 pm

Michael Mozina wrote:Again, I think that's due to the tendency for the atmosphere to mass separate and form concentric double layers in the atmosphere. The plasma roundness has a lot to do with the EM fields around the sun, not just gravity and momentum. It's also unlikely IMO that the actual density of the surface of the photosphere is as light/thin as predicted in standard theory.
I totally agree with these statements. The mass-separated model that I'm using, based on the work that you and Oliver Manuel et al. have done, identifies three distinct layers of positive charge, and two of negative charge, within the Sun.

http://qdl.scs-inc.us/2ndParty/Images/C ... rs_wbg.png

The electrostatic potentials between these layers are enormous, and this explains the non-hydrostatic density gradient. In the standard model, in the first 15,000 km below the surface, the Sun's density goes from nothing to the density of STP air. Now have a look at this image of s-waves in the photosphere, and tell me that these are occurring in a near-perfect vacuum that has a smooth density gradient to 15,000 km below it... :)

http://qdl.scs-inc.us/2ndParty/Images/C ... eWaves.png

S-waves are only 'posed to occur at sharp density changes. :)

And tell me that the Raleigh-Benard cells in the photosphere are occurring in the same near-perfect vacuum... :)

http://qdl.scs-inc.us/2ndParty/Images/C ... anules.png

The actual density "gradient" is, as you know, fully non-hydrostatic, and can only be proof of a powerful electric field that is holding positively charged plasma down to a negative electrode, as a cathode tuft. OK, I'm done preaching to the choir... :)

Anyway, with a much more powerful force holding down the plasma, predictions of spherical flattening based just on gravity and centrifugal force are irrelevant. If the mainstream had a model that matched the observations in any respect, they never would have expected much flattening. :roll:
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Re: Sun's Almost Perfectly Round Shape Baffles Scientists

Unread post by sjw40364 » Sat Sep 01, 2012 7:30 pm

I have no problem with the Sun being round and oblate both. We no more see the surface of the sun then you see the surface of Jupiter. The difference is the Sun's core, even if pure iron, would be molten and subject to electrical forces, not solid. And certainly not a permanent magnet. There is not a single solid anything on or in the Sun, unlike the planets.

Melting point of iron: 2,795° F (1,535° C).
Temperature of Sun's surface: 5,778 K.
When magnets can't be magnets: above 770° C (1,418° F) for iron.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... urie-point

Electrical forces in plasma is the ONLY answer. Not just for its shape, but its magnetic field, its solar wind, its very existence.

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Re: Sun's Almost Perfectly Round Shape Baffles Scientists

Unread post by Solar » Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:41 pm

sjw40364 wrote:I have no problem with the Sun being round and oblate both. We no more see the surface of the sun then you see the surface of Jupiter. The difference is the Sun's core, even if pure iron, would be molten and subject to electrical forces, not solid. And certainly not a permanent magnet. There is not a single solid anything on or in the Sun, unlike the planets.
Pretty much:

A High temperature Liquid Plasma Model of the Sun - Pierre-Marie Robitaille

This is where the Iron Sun and the "pinch" dynamics of Plasma Electrodynamics meet. Seriously, with the scope of powerful forces at play we need to be considering the presence of different phases of "matter" something fierce imho. Nice call SJW :)
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Re: Sun's Almost Perfectly Round Shape Baffles Scientists

Unread post by CharlesChandler » Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:23 am

Solar wrote:Seriously, with the scope of powerful forces at play we need to be considering the presence of different phases of "matter" something fierce imho.
Exactly. The Sun is actually a supercritical fluid, which is high-temperature plasma that has been compressed down to, or near, its liquid density. This gives it properties that are not possible otherwise. For example, it flows like an ideal gas, because electrostatic repulsion between ions prevents the particle collisions that instantiate friction. Yet p-waves and s-waves flow through it like it was a liquid. And it emits the black-body radiation of a solid.

The science of supercritical fluids is immature. They are tough to study, and they have few practical applications outside of the discipline of astronomy. Unfortunately, astronomers are scared to disagree with the previous generation, so progress is slow. Nevertheless, the laboratory studies continue to accumulate, and the Sun makes sense as a supercritical fluid, and not in any other terms.

To clarify what I was saying about electrostatic layers and the lack of oblation, we would normally calculate the degree of oblation just as a balance between gravity and centrifugal force. Both of these stem from the same fundamental property: mass. We can add more mass, which would increase the centripetal force from gravity, but the additional mass also has angular momentum which generates centrifugal force. Where these forces achieve equilibrium determines the degree of oblation. But if you throw in another centripetal force that has nothing to do with mass, namely electric forces between charged double-layers, you see much less oblation. This is because you added centripetal force, but without any corresponding increase in centrifugal force. The result is a Sun that is "too round." Hence this is one of the proofs of powerful electric fields within the Sun.

The mechanism that maintains the charge separations, in spite of the near-perfect conductivity of plasma, can only be compressive ionization. Under sufficient pressure, matter can be compressed to the point that there isn't enough room between the atoms for electron shells. As electrons can only exist in specific shells or as free particles, this makes free particles out of them, leaving positive ions behind. As the charge separation mechanism is pressure, it doesn't matter that the plasma is highly conductive -- the charges cannot recombine under that pressure, and the electric fields will persist. Isaac Newton didn't know about this, so it isn't built into the standard model. But particle physicists know all about it, and there is no mistaking the fact that the pressure inside the Sun is sufficient for compressive ionization. So this has to be taken into account. When it is, everything starts to make sense.

But note also that we can't start with electrodynamics as the framework. The first and biggest question is what causes and maintains the charge separations in the absence of insulators. The Universe is very definitely electric, and we see lots of evidence of currents. But the framework has to start with electrostatics. Then the discharges make sense.
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