Dusty experiments are solving interstellar water mystery

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MrAmsterdam
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Dusty experiments are solving interstellar water mystery

Unread post by MrAmsterdam » Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:59 am

Dusty experiments are solving interstellar water mystery
http://www.ras.org.uk/index.php?option= ... 4&Itemid=2

“We think that the Earth’s water was delivered by comets during the early stages of Earth’s history and that comets were formed from interstellar material left over after the birth of the Sun, but the next step back has been unclear,” said Ms Frankland.

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“Our experiments rely on being able to reproduce in the laboratory the very low pressures and low temperatures of these star-forming regions. We set up our experiments in a vacuum chamber and cool it down to –268 degrees Celsius, then use surface sensitive techniques to explore the physical and chemical behaviour of oxygen atoms and molecules on the surfaces of dust and ice grains.” said Ms Frankland.

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“These initial experiments are having some interesting results in that they are allowing us to look at how the ice coating develops on the dust particles. It appears that oxygen atoms may become trapped inside the icy mantles. We need to do more work, but it may be that our experiments might help solve the mystery of the missing atomic oxygen as well as where the water has come from,” said Ms Frankland.
Possibly water in abundance in galactic dusty plasma clouds and Ms Frankland and her colleagues at Heriot-Watt are trying to replicate the same properties of the medium in a lab.

That's EMPIRICISM!
Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality. -Nikola Tesla -1934

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Re: Dusty experiments are solving interstellar water mystery

Unread post by jjohnson » Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:49 pm

And curiously refreshing!

Actually, a lot of good scientists "in the trenches" are doing surprisingly useful work along lines such as these, in a variety of pursuits of interest to the EU paradigm. Plasma matrix experiments, solar prominence replications in a vacuum chamber with plasma discharges (Cal Tech); dusty plasmas (U of Colorado), sources of currents and magnetic fields in galaxies (Bryan Gaensler, U of Sydney). Just search around. And an increasing number of physicists and astronomers in solar work and radio astronomy are pushing the envelope by increasingly daring to use the E-word now and then. We should never count them out or denigrate the work that they do, unless they are the sort of theorists who routinely bash and quash every reference to an electrified cosmology, or write misleading articles for the popular "science" press for the lowest common denominator.

These people are a lot smarter and better educated than I am, although the educational path likely did not stress the EU principals very much, if at all, so that's a disadvantage. This means that when they stare at data and images that they've collected, it's not a very well concealed secret that these are nearly all plasma-driven phenomena. Of course, as the developer of magnetohydrodynamics warned, cosmic plasma is too complex for "simple" MHD simulations to work, and you have to incorporate individual particles, not just group flows found in the big picture, in order to obtain the actual, truly complex behaviour of a real plasma system in space.

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MrAmsterdam
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Re: Dusty experiments are solving interstellar water mystery

Unread post by MrAmsterdam » Fri May 07, 2010 3:01 am

Hello Mr Johnson,

Herschel did it again!
http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/object ... ctid=46983

Herschel's HIFI follows the trail of cosmic water

Herschel's HIFI instrument was especially designed to follow the water trail in the Universe over a wide range of scales, from the Solar System out to extragalactic sources. Early results, presented this week at the Herschel First Results Symposium, demonstrate how HIFI uses water to probe the physical and chemical conditions in different regions of the cosmos.

Water is an extremely important molecule in the Universe, abundant in a large variety of cosmic environments — from our own blue planet and its neighbourhood, the Solar System, through interstellar clouds where new stars and planets are formed, and even beyond the Milky Way, in star-forming galaxies. Due to the large amount of water vapour present in the Earth's atmosphere, however, astronomical observations of water from ground-based facilities are virtually impossible, even from the driest and highest deserts; they need to be carried out with space observatories.

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The role of water is crucial in the processes of star formation, because this molecule contributes to the cooling of the gas and dust mixture from which stars are born. Early results, reported this week at the Herschel First Results Symposium, demonstrate the detection of water in various proto-stellar systems. Along with upcoming data from star-forming clouds throughout the Milky Way, these data will help astronomers understand the mechanisms of star formation in great detail. Beyond our Galaxy, water signatures have been found in nearby galaxies which are known to be undergoing intense bursts of star formation.

Water trails go all the way from vast star-forming clouds down to stars and planets on much smaller scales. In the proto-planetary discs surrounding stars in the process of forming, water vapour may in fact freeze onto dust grains; these cold grains would then condense into icy planetesimals, the seeds of planet formation.
You could say that there ionised watergas in abundance throughout different regions in the universe, right?

Water plasma in abundance.....what is your view on this Mr Johnson?
Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality. -Nikola Tesla -1934

rjhuntington
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Water water everywhere

Unread post by rjhuntington » Sat May 08, 2010 5:27 am

The three most abundant elements in the universe are, 1) hydrogen, which is highly reactive; 2) helium, which is non-reactive; and 3) oxygen, which is highly reactive. Hydrogen and Oxygen, the most abundant reactive elements, and extremely reactive at that, combine to form water at the slightest provocation. Cosmic Birkeland currents are surely more than enough to ensure the plentiful supply of universal water.

Water must necessarily be everywhere, on and in every planet and moon, every comet and asteroid, and throughout seemingly empty space. Water must have formed even before rock. One may expect that amazed investigators will find water literally everywhere they look.

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Re: Dusty experiments are solving interstellar water mystery

Unread post by jjohnson » Sat May 08, 2010 9:54 am

I agree with RJ. I disagree with the Herschel post's saying that the icy grains are the seeds of planetary formation - well, I don't necessarily agree, that is. There are other theories of how planets are formed in the EU context. Trying to model a dusty "gas" (plasma) cloud gravitationally and figure out how it condenses and circularizes orbits hasn't been spectacularly successful, and EU offers ideas like fissioning and capture, to name two, which are alternatives to the cloud being gravitationally controlled. (Gas cloud diffusion was covered elsewhere on this Forum recently.) Marklund convection in a pinching plasma is not included in gravitational models, which simply ignore the electromagnetic consequences of ionization. One of the most important is that generation of rotation is built right in, and normal. What in a gravity-only model induces the whole ball of gas to spin?

Incidentally, in terms of modeling plasma phenomena, the Plasma Focus group have successfully run their own computer simulation of the creation of a plasmoid and a pinch in support of their observations of how their device is operating. They are making progress now on several fronts, and getting closer to their string of milepost goals in building a proof-of-concept functioning model. The article detailing their simulation and what kind of codes they are implementing is very interesting and current state of the art. It may travel well (if available after further development) into the plasma community, furthering accurate description of observable events.
Jim

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junglelord
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Re: Dusty experiments are solving interstellar water mystery

Unread post by junglelord » Sun May 09, 2010 8:58 am

Weird Water in Space is Electrically Charged !
A new 'phase' of water that is electrically charged has been discovered in space for the first time.

The weird space water vapor was discovered in an interstellar dust cloud by the European Space Agency's Herschel space observatory.

Unlike the three more familiar phases of water – namely solid ice, liquid water and gaseous steam – this newfound 'phase' doesn't occur naturally on Earth.
In the birth clouds surrounding young stars, ultraviolet light is pumping through the gas, and this irradiation can knock an electron out of the water molecule, leaving it with an electrical charge.

"This detection of ionized water vapor came as a surprise," said Arnold Benz of ETH Zurich in Switzerland. "It tells us that there are violent processes taking place during the early birth stages which lead to widespread energetic radiation throughout the cloud."

The detection of this weird form of water was announced Thursday during a major scientific symposium held at the European Space Agency (ESA), which runs the observatory, in Noordwijk, Netherlands.

The first scientific results from the Herschel observatory also included new views of massive star formation and a temperature reading of a frigid cloud of gas and dust, were released at the symposium.

Herschel launched in May 2009 alongside Europe's Planck observatory, which will detect the cosmic microwave background radiation of the universe.
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/w ... 00507.html
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jjohnson
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Re: Dusty experiments are solving interstellar water mystery

Unread post by jjohnson » Sun May 09, 2010 10:03 am

If an electron is "knocked off" a molecule - any molecule - what results is an ion, a positively charged particle missing one or more electrons. What also results, no mystery in the Electric Model, is separation of charge (the negative electron and the ion are removed from one another, at least for a while, possibly a long while if the radiation source continues to pump in energy above the ionization potential of water), and a "cloud" which is composed, at least in part, of charged particles in motion.

Technically (i.e., in scientific terminology) this constitutes a plasma. Separation of charge creates an electric field. Moving charges constitute electric currents. Currents create magnetic fields. So now a magnetized plasma has been readily created out of water and UV radiation, both of which are hardly uncommon in space.

Motion of charged particles is easier when aligned with the local direction of the magnetic field contours, or lines of force, whereas they meet more resistance from the magnetized plasma when their motion is crossing the alignment of the magnetic field. This results in an acceleration which attempts to change their direction to become better aligned with the field. This is how electric currents in space become organized and can become "field-aligned" currents. In reality, which means "not theorized" but as actually measured and observed in lab experiments with plasmas and in many astronomical observations of complex mixes of field aligned, collimated 'jets' of particles and turbulent flows in plumes light years in length and breadth, the interactions are highly interactive and chaotic in nature. These complex conditions can be forerunners to star and planetary formation, and even, at larger scales, galactic formation. Pinches, high current densities, and Marklund segregation of ions can result in conditions which may create heavier elements, aggregate dust to chunks, and set up radial electromagnetic fields which yield planar solar system assemblies.

I am not sure which is more incorrect, that what was discovered is a new "phase" of water (I think they might mean 'state'), but it is simply ionized water, or a water plasma, one of the four known states of matter, or that it has never been observed before in space. What are the water masers in radio astronomical galactic observations?

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Re: Dusty experiments are solving interstellar water mystery

Unread post by mharratsc » Sun May 09, 2010 12:43 pm

A new 'phase' of water that is electrically charged has been discovered in space for the first time.
Morons. :P
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MattEU
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Re: Dusty experiments are solving interstellar water mystery

Unread post by MattEU » Sun May 09, 2010 10:50 pm

Water has been discovered on the surface of the sun in sunspots where it causes a sort of "stellar greenhouse effect" that affects the sunspot's energy output.

"There's a perception that the sun is too hot to form water on its surface, but we have proved that it exists in sunspots because they are cooler," said Peter Bernath, a chemistry professor at the University of Waterloo.

Scientists from UW and the National Optical Astronomy Observatories in Tucson, Ariz., recorded evidence of water - - not in liquid form because the sun is too hot, but as vapor or steam -- in dark sunspots.

The discovery is of fundamental importance for understanding the atmospheres of the sun and stars. Hot water molecules are the most important absorbers of infrared radiation in the atmospheres of cool stars, such as "variable red giants." Studying the physical effects of hot water in these red giant stars may be central to determining the rate at which they evolve and eject material into space.

Dark sunspots can be 2,000 degrees C cooler than the surrounding bright surface of the sun, allowing detailed studies of regions that mimic the surfaces of red giant stars. Sunspots are caused by magnetic fields that float to the surface of the sun and locally suppress energy flow from the core.

Bernath, an expert in molecular astronomy, said it is surprising to find water vapor on the sun because its surface temperature of 5,700 degrees C causes it to break into atoms of hydrogen and oxygen. Since sunspots are cooler, the atoms can recombine to form water vapor that can absorb escaping infrared radiation.

"This formation of water vapor affects the energy flow from sunspots, creating a kind of stellar greenhouse effect," he said. Bernath believes, however, this has no effect on climate on earth.

http://newsrelease.uwaterloo.ca/news.php?id=396
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Re: Dusty experiments are solving interstellar water mystery

Unread post by MattEU » Sun May 09, 2010 10:58 pm

and these are 2 of my favourite about dust and minerals being created in the universes "wind"

http://www.spitzer.caltech.edu/Media/re ... -16a.shtml

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8012501.stm


seems to show where there is EU activity stuff like minerals etc is also created. does this hint out how the dust on earth is created, why we have so much, why old stuff is constantly getting buried.

also, does the water on the earth come from the earth, from the inside, due to an EU action?

could water also be created in the atmosphere by EU activity? might help to explain noctilucent clouds and why clouds suddenly appear and dissapear

the floods of ancient times being created when the earth was suddenly in an energy blip in the solar system circuit or its component status dramatically changed?

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MrAmsterdam
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Re: Dusty experiments are solving interstellar water mystery

Unread post by MrAmsterdam » Mon May 10, 2010 1:30 am

Did the EU predict so much water in space? It seems a consist discovery and observation; water on the moon, water on mars, interstellar water, water in plasma state. This list will be extended with new observations I guess.

BTW, something completely different. I posted a message about water and the Drake equation, we need to discuss the impact of such observations too.
Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality. -Nikola Tesla -1934

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Re: Dusty experiments are solving interstellar water mystery

Unread post by Jarvamundo » Mon May 10, 2010 2:37 am

also, does the water on the earth come from the earth, from the inside, due to an EU action?
Great thread,
MattEU, i like it, I'm more and more convinced... EU H20's seemingly inevitable, the extension here being the earth's ability to retain and store the water due to EM protected 'cell' atmosphere.

It would be interesting if this could be simulated in the lab, with induced m fields... a kind of solar wind experiment with a terralla type conditions to measure the effects of H20 synthesis and retention conditions.

Dusty plasma --> develops into a circuit / plasmoid core planet --> EM planet with protected 'cell' atmosphere --> conditions to retain water, from trapping...

Might the plasmoid core planet, then settle into resonance and tie in as part of the expanding earth hypothesis http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kL7qDeI05U which ties in with Tesla's 'prime substance' (neutrino flux) condensation comments (5mins into it). I'm often perplexed how water could just be 'delivered' to the planet by flukey gravitational hits (see Van Flandern's Orbital Dynamics) from stray coalescing gas field comets, synthesis style sits better with me, especially if H20 synthesis is found on objects everywhere, even sunspots and wizzing comets!

We may very well have a model where complete solar system formation and water conditions are inevitable, simply EU resonant combinations. Conditions are created, maintained and lost through electrically induced 'trapping' of locally synthesized H20. You loose resonance, or disconnect from the circuit, you loose your EM cell protection for water retention, and life support. Blips, cycles, deserts, floods and all forms of electrical extinction or rebirth possible. Gas giants may then act as step-down transformers for their earth-water-sized like moons, providing conditions once thought 'impossibly' far from the dominant sun. Probably moving into including scalar 'coupling' here...Tesla's ideas for wireless step-down... Ahwell fun ideas, but components and conditions could be lab testable.

Re: MrAmsterdam, yes drake indeed! game changer.
EU-Drake, would become dominated by calculation of plasma cell resonant conditions for 'trapping' of local H20. Definitely the Ne term would be calculated different with inclusion protective plasma sheaths provided by smaller suns, maybe gas giants, i think Thornhill had some recent comments somewhere on this?

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Re: Dusty experiments are solving interstellar water mystery

Unread post by Krackonis » Mon May 10, 2010 12:25 pm

Jarvamundo wrote:
also, does the water on the earth come from the earth, from the inside, due to an EU action?
Great thread,
MattEU, i like it, I'm more and more convinced... EU H20's seemingly inevitable, the extension here being the earth's ability to retain and store the water due to EM protected 'cell' atmosphere.

It would be interesting if this could be simulated in the lab, with induced m fields... a kind of solar wind experiment with a terralla type conditions to measure the effects of H20 synthesis and retention conditions.

Dusty plasma --> develops into a circuit / plasmoid core planet --> EM planet with protected 'cell' atmosphere --> conditions to retain water, from trapping...

Might the plasmoid core planet, then settle into resonance and tie in as part of the expanding earth hypothesis http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kL7qDeI05U which ties in with Tesla's 'prime substance' (neutrino flux) condensation comments (5mins into it). I'm often perplexed how water could just be 'delivered' to the planet by flukey gravitational hits (see Van Flandern's Orbital Dynamics) from stray coalescing gas field comets, synthesis style sits better with me, especially if H20 synthesis is found on objects everywhere, even sunspots and wizzing comets!

We may very well have a model where complete solar system formation and water conditions are inevitable, simply EU resonant combinations. Conditions are created, maintained and lost through electrically induced 'trapping' of locally synthesized H20. You loose resonance, or disconnect from the circuit, you loose your EM cell protection for water retention, and life support. Blips, cycles, deserts, floods and all forms of electrical extinction or rebirth possible. Gas giants may then act as step-down transformers for their earth-water-sized like moons, providing conditions once thought 'impossibly' far from the dominant sun. Probably moving into including scalar 'coupling' here...Tesla's ideas for wireless step-down... Ahwell fun ideas, but components and conditions could be lab testable.

Re: MrAmsterdam, yes drake indeed! game changer.
EU-Drake, would become dominated by calculation of plasma cell resonant conditions for 'trapping' of local H20. Definitely the Ne term would be calculated different with inclusion protective plasma sheaths provided by smaller suns, maybe gas giants, i think Thornhill had some recent comments somewhere on this?
There is the distinct possibility that the earths connection to the EU provides significant water recombination inside the planet, as I believe you were suggesting ( The Plasma Core/EE possibility notwithstanding ;) ). This stance is indeed backed up by the presence of the notoriously poorly understood 'black smokers' on the ocean floor at the planets spreading ridges. Certainly dark dirty water is pumped out of these smokers. The concensus view is that there are 'microfissures' under the ocean floor which water is pushed into the rock and then is ejected from the area in there black smokers.

I feel there is a possibilty that water is generated where ever there is plasma. The insides of the earth are completely plasma. The question might be "why there" at the black smokers? Does it happen at Volcanos aswell? Are there other points on the earth where there are these outpourings of water?

Perhaps Yellowstone's geysers deserve closer scrutiny? I hear Yellowstone is just a massive volcano itself and if we abscribe to the EE, then the possibility that there is water literally trying to get out at every single volcano, every spreading ridge, every rift (that is not electrically etched into the earth).

Still, on either front, very interesting stuff.
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MattEU
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The Lost City Smokers and Serpentinization

Unread post by MattEU » Mon May 10, 2010 1:48 pm

The Lost City Smokers and Serpentinization
The water venting at Lost City is generally 200°F. The fluids do not get as hot as the black smokers because it is not heated by magma; rather, the heat comes from serpentinization, a chemical reaction between seawater and mantle rock.

That’s also the reason for all the hydrocarbons. Naturally occurring carbon dioxide is locked in mantle rock. At Lost City, the reaction between the rock and seawater produces 10 to 100 times more hydrogen and methane (a hydrocarbon) than a typical black smoker system found along volcanic mid-ocean ridges, Proskurowski and Kelley found.
http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=12458&tid=282&cid=38007 - Lost City serpentinization
Is Serpentinization a power source exchange with an Anode/Cathode? If there is a potential difference between the sea water at the surface and the sea shore, what sort of energy difference is there at the bottom of the ocean and the sea floor?

Is this the reason why Black and White Smokers and Volcanogenic massive sulfide ore deposit ("fossilised" Black Smokers) are usually found attached to hangingwalls of different type of rocks? All the different strata creating natural energy components? Similar to layers in capacitors, batteries or different materials in heating/transformer objects?

theres more links and info on black smokers and possible serpentinization (mars and titan), and other possible EU exchanges here

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Jarvamundo
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Re: Dusty experiments are solving interstellar water mystery

Unread post by Jarvamundo » Mon May 10, 2010 6:44 pm

Interesting...could very well be a combination... I read Meyl had some theories on hydrocarbons / oil being produced in the core, he had some oil synthesis experiments along these lines.

I'm leaning more towards H20 synthesis from space plasmas (outside in), ie the solar wind H combining with planetary body O's. Evidence with these dusty plasmas, comets, asteroids, moons, etc all peppered with water ice signatures, all that would be required is a plasma environment to protect and trap/retain the liquid form. A strong M-field providing this induced from connection to the electric sun. As a body looses this resonant m-field (ie venus changing position) the atmosphere would become unprotected, and loose out.

As mentioned certainly can't ignore layer in the circuit tho. fascinating.

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