About this 1/r vs 1/r^2 thing ...

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Nereid
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About this 1/r vs 1/r^2 thing ...

Unread post by Nereid » Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:50 am

Lloyd wrote:4. that similar like-charged plasma filaments in galaxies attract each other at 1/r more strongly than gravity 1/r^2?
Nereid wrote:If the plasma filaments are composed of matter, and if that matter behaves like the matter we know and love here on Earth, then the gravitational attraction will also be proportional to 1/r!
solrey wrote:Nope, the force of gravity diminishes at 1/r2. Are you not aware that gravity follows an inverse square law? Shirley, is that a faux pas in your Temple? :?

1/r is the power curve that describes the attraction of plasma filaments flowing in the same direction, which also follow a repulsion curve at 1/r3, therefore resulting in the z-pinch and helical structure. Electromagnetism is thirty nine orders of magnitude stronger than gravity which implies that plasma filaments pretty much ignore gravity.
(source)

So what's going on?

The (Newtonian) formula for 'the force of gravity' is F = Gm1m2/r^2, isn't it?

Sure; that's the formula for the force between two points, of mass m1 and m2, separated by a distance r.

But a plasma filament is not a point (or even two of them), and neither is two plasma filaments.

A plasma filament may be approximated as a line mass, just as a current flowing along it may be approximated as a current flowing in an (infinitely thin) wire.

So, place a test mass a distance r from an (infinitely thin) wire, and ask what the gravitational force is. The calculation is relatively straightforward - just take the integral of the force between the test mass and a point in the wire, over all such points - and it yields ... a 1/r relationship!

The 'Electromagnetism is thirty nine orders of magnitude stronger than gravity' handwave is applicable only if the plasma filament is composed entirely of electrons (or is it protons? one or the other). But real plasmas are quasi-neutral, with average (bulk) volume densities of electrons and ions equal (as in Peratt's model, for example - see Figure 3).

On a personal note, I wasn't all that surprised to see Lloyd's post, but was pretty surprised by solrey's, given his statement about the need to understand the relevant textbook physics before being in a position to criticise (or attack) it (I don't need to cite this statement of yours, here in this forum, do I solrey?).

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Re: About this 1/r vs 1/r^2 thing ...

Unread post by jjohnson » Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:06 am

Nereid, I think that you are both right but incomplete here. and will try to show which is which.

The propagation of sound energy away from "standard source configurations" is a wave process, and the change in field electric field strength due to "standard charge configurations" and the gravity field strength under those configurations are all mathematically identical. That is, if charge or sound sources are distributed equally on one of those "configurations" — a tiny but finite point sphere; an infinite line, or an infinite plane — the strength of the resulting fields at distance r follows the same rules. That is, as you point out, 1/r² for a "point" source; 1/r if the source is a long line, and constant if the source is the infinite plane. neglecting the peculiar case in acoustics where a source can have directionality, r's exponent will range continuously from zero to 2. (This also rules out things like dust extinction for light, to keep it simple.) [references: Noise and Vibration Control Engineering, Beranek and Vér, John Wiley & Sons, 1992; and Electromagnetics, 2d Ed., Joseph Edminster, Schaum's Outline Series, McGraw Hill, 1993.

For cases where the source may not be an exact small point, or may be a less than infinite line, or a planar source of limited dimensions, the exponent is a "decimal" number somewhere between the three integer exponents. That means the field strength is decreasing with increasing distance at a rate somewhere between two of the standard cases. The acoustical case uses equations which, in a sense, say, "this finite square (or rectangle or circle) source will fall off slowly at first if you are "real close" to it (its distributed sources subtend a wide "field of view" to the observer or receiver), but as distance increases, all shapes collapse until, with enough distance, they are all point sources at the limit. Stars are almost all at this limit due to their great distance from us, for example, and in open space their light intensity (and gravitational force) fall off in proportion to 1/r², as advertised, and as you correctly point out.

But in cases where there are relatively large or "bulk collections" of particles, and a fraction of those particles are ionized and separated so that there also negative and positive electromagnetic forces in play, the situation may (not always!) be dominated by the electromagnetic forces, and in particular it is not a simple electrostatic situation, but more an electrodynamic that, it turns out, is going on.

I started to look at an arrangement of particles in a Maxwellian velocity distribution to compare average forces among charged and uncharged particles to compare gravity vectors to EM force vectors etc. but that's the complicated, long and correct way to do it. If you have a line source (call it case=infinite) of gravity "charges", outside the line the gravity field is related to distance r from the normal to the axis to the remote (neutral or charged) particle as 1/r, using Newton's well-known "force between 2 masses" gravity equation. On the other hand, the attraction or repulsion of a charged particle in the field due to a linear distribution of the separated charges in the infinite line will be controlled by how many and the distribution of charge along the line. Assuming it is equally distributed, just like the gravity distribution, along the line, then the EM forces between the line of charges and the
test charge at distance r will also be in a 1/r relationship, but the strength from charged particles is reduced by the number of charged particles in the line source (the fraction of ionization) and increased by the difference in strength between the gravity force and the EM force, to begin with.

So what dominates? Say you have a line source constituted of only hydrogen atoms (the simple model) and one atom out of every, say, 1000 atoms has been ionized to produce two separated charges. Electrostatically, you can guess that the whole line should appear net neutral to the test particle at r, because there are equal numbers of positive and negative charges attracting and repelling.

But there are other forces at work. You might say that nothing in space is static. If it were, all the gravity vectors on those "motionless" particles, charged or not, constituting the line would act toward the center of gravity of the line, which is right at the center, and they would all pull themselves together into as small a clump of matter as possible. If the atoms and charged particles have random thermal motion, however, then a kinetic gas pressure exists, and in the nature of gas, the agglomeration would try to equalize its pressure with that of the surrounding medium — i.e., the tenuous interplanetary or interstellar medium, and despite gravity the particles, due to a decreasing number of collisions and an increasing mean free path between collisions would eventually drift farther and farther apart and cool and become less and less influenced by each other.

Also within the line source region, unless ionization conditions remained, under thermal collisions and radiation, the charged particles would over time tend back toward a neutral condition, and join the march toward diffusion.

Observations show that there are magnetic fields in plasma filaments, however. There are therefore moving charges, or electric currents, in those filaments. (They are not, so far as we have determined, filaments constituted of a whole lot of little bar magnets all oriented nose to tail. ;) )

Current flows generate magnetic fields, and charged particles generate electric fields. That these are complex goes almost without saying: Langmuir called it "plasma" for a reason - it's as if its movement and behaviour were "alive" in its complexity. It is a huge system of feedback loops and interactions at various distances, with change and instability almost the only constant, albeit it very slowly over cosmic dimensions. In space plasmas, Paul Bellan [Fundamentals of Plasma Physics, Cambridge University Press, 2006] writes,
Most of the astrophysical plasmas that have been investigated have temperatures in the range of 1—100 eV and these plasmas are usually fully ionized... Plasma dynamics is determined by the self-consistent interaction between electromagnetic fields and statistically large numbers of charged particles.
Other writers note that complete ionization is not necessary for matter to exhibit plasma behaviour. In space, with the occasional exception, plasma behaviour is the rule. Maxwell, Lorentz, Biot-Savart, Vlasov, Debye, Alfvén, Landau, Bernstein, Rayleigh-Taylor, Fokker-Planck, Manley-Rowe, and Brillouin are some of the names associated with the many rules and laws and morphologies and instabilities and methodologies used in trying to depict plasma behaviour mathematically.

Plasma and plasma behavior are observed and inferred in space; they are observed in labs on Earth, taught in universities and used in a wide variety of construction and industrial processes in applied engineering form. Every single photon (other than reflections) reaching our eyes and instruments from space is generated by electrons in plasma. The richness, diversity and extreme complexity of plasma and the physics of plasma are beyond the scope of an informal, quantitative discussion forum such as this. The more that people can understand or just grasp the mathematical and physical principles involved, the better, of course. This is a recognized science, after all, and it is in its infancy, human pride notwithstanding. We all have a lot to learn, and not much time (individually) in which to learn it.

Sure, 1/r versus 1/r² is interesting and instructive, but where plasma behavior occurs, it is most often irrelevant, because gravity is only a force, almost always not the dominant force, in describing plasma behaviour.

Jim

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Re: About this 1/r vs 1/r^2 thing ...

Unread post by mharratsc » Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:58 pm

Wow, Jim... I often tease you about being smart, but this is written like you've been a physicist all your life!

You're retention of information is friggin amazing! O.O
Mike H.

"I have no fear to shout out my ignorance and let the Wise correct me, for every instance of such narrows the gulf between them and me." -- Michael A. Harrington

jjohnson
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Re: About this 1/r vs 1/r^2 thing ...

Unread post by jjohnson » Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:58 pm

It generally helps if you have a few relevant books on the shelf and have thumbed through them several times. ;)

I can't just remember all that stuff; I barely even know a fraction of it, and the last thing I am is a physicist of any sort. A degree plan in architecture and a career in applied architectural and environmental acoustics doesn't devote a lot of time to physics courses, believe me. It's just something I've taken a liking to. Dilettante is an apt description, I am sure. I like messing with this stuff.

Unfortunately, trying to teach oneself the basics without benefit of discourse with a good instructor and a logical introductory sequence of courses forces one to miss probably 90% of what a good education can provide. Thanks, Mike, for the encouragement.

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Re: About this 1/r vs 1/r^2 thing ...

Unread post by Nereid » Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:46 am

Great post, as always, Jim.

For any reader interested, as Jim's post clearly illustrates, there's a great deal more to this kind of modelling, and all of it involves math (at least differential calculus).

Here are some, fairly random, bullet points of what (else) is involved (Jim covered some of this already, but I'll add some extensions):

* Gauss' law; Physicist introduced it to forum members here (and I sorta used it here); it's a very powerful tool (among other things, it allows you to treat spheres as points, cylinders as lines, etc ... with the relevant caveats kept firmly in mind of course)

* just as stars are not spheres of matter surrounded by a perfect vacuum, so plasma filaments are not cylinders of quasi-neutral plasma surrounded by a perfect vacuum; however, to build useful models, approximating assumptions like this can be - and are - made (in model building, you should always check - carefully - just how good your assumptions are likely to be, and what their limits are)

* electromagnetic radiation - 'light' - also exerts a force on ordinary matter (not on neutrinos though), in the form of 'radiation pressure' for example; in some physical environments, involving plasmas, this force can be important, even dominant

* pace Jim, the photons/electromagnetic radiation our 'telescopes' detect coming from beyond the solar system may originate from forms of matter other than plasmas; for example the 'dust' in the interstallar medium (ISM) is very bright in the mid- and far-IR (and this dust, as well as neutral species in the ISM and elsewhere, makes for lots of 'negative detections' - it blocks, or absorbs, or scatters light from background sources).

Oh, and let's keep in mind that all this modelling is based on classical physics, with the exception of small additions of atomic theory to parts of plasma physics. How you choose to understand this, knowing that classical physics is 'wrong' in some important ways - how you relate models to reality perhaps - goes way beyond what's in this thread (so far).

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Re: About this 1/r vs 1/r^2 thing ...

Unread post by David Talbott » Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:25 am

Nereid wrote: Oh, and let's keep in mind that all this modelling is based on classical physics, with the exception of small additions of atomic theory to parts of plasma physics. How you choose to understand this, knowing that classical physics is 'wrong' in some important ways - how you relate models to reality perhaps - goes way beyond what's in this thread (so far).
I don't know of any instance in which the primary electrical theorists either claim or unwittingly imply that classical physics is "wrong". If you've found some suggestion to this effect, could you direct me to the discussion?

Thanks.

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Re: About this 1/r vs 1/r^2 thing ...

Unread post by jjohnson » Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:25 pm

Nereid,
Roger that on the IR radiation and other relatively long wavelengths from all matter regardless of temperature. I assume that there is no matter with no (i.e. zero kelvin) temperature, but am open to the possibility. All bulk matter radiates, and I suspect that it is the electrons which release the radiation/photons at whatever interval and EM frequency the temperature condition dictates. Your point is well taken and I admit I was just thinking about the more active plasma regions when I wrote that.

Even rocks like asteroids in inter-galactic-cluster space will continue to radiate, if I understand thermal radiation. Radiation is a little like motion. All matter has it. — unless you posit a reference frame at the same velocity as the object(s) of interest, anyway.

Question 1: is it "legal" (useful?) to posit a reference frame which is not moving relative to a photon. in order to examine, describe or otherwise investigate that photon?

Question 2: If a hydrogen atom is very cold and therefore must radiate at a very long wavelength, and its electron is in its lowest energy orbital, what happens to the electron each time it emits one more photon? The atom loses some angular momentum? A lower orbital becomes possible and necessary? How long can this keep up? Or does the rate of photon emission just get slower and slower? SInce this is subatomic stuff, my intuition says learn QM and figure it out for yourself, but an electron does not have an inexhaustible supply of enough internal or orbital energy to keep radiating forever. It may not be correct to think of an atom as a blackbody - in fact, it seems unlikely to me that it could be one, as a blackbody requires sufficient electrons to emit smoothly and continuously over a wide frequency range.

Moderator, if these questions aren't pertinent enough under this subject, delete them.

Jim

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solrey
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Re: About this 1/r vs 1/r^2 thing ...

Unread post by solrey » Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:38 pm

Great comments there Jim.

Well Nereid, color me confused because I'm not sure where you're going with this. I responded to your statement:
If the plasma filaments are composed of matter, and if that matter behaves like the matter we know and love here on Earth, then the gravitational attraction will also be proportional to 1/r!
To which I responded with:
Nope, the force of gravity diminishes at 1/r2.
Then you confirm the formula F=Gm1m2/r2

However the following statement is a gross oversimplification because a plasma filament is more like a straw with the current concentrated in two concentric charge sheath layers. A plasma filament also aligns with the local magnetic field, the filament's own self-generated magnetic field will cause charged particles to spiral and cause the filament to constrict. Other considerations are particle density, radiation pressure and temperature. In reality, only certain aspects of a plasma filament may be approximated by a wire analogy.
A plasma filament may be approximated as a line mass, just as a current flowing along it may be approximated as a current flowing in an (infinitely thin) wire.
Here's the main source of my confusion:
So, place a test mass a distance r from an (infinitely thin) wire, and ask what the gravitational force is. The calculation is relatively straightforward - just take the integral of the force between the test mass and a point in the wire, over all such points - and it yields ... a 1/r relationship!
How do you reach that conclusion? Does gravity along a line not follow the usual formula and Gaussian distribution along it's length? So based on what you said a test mass in the same plane as a spiral disc at some distance r from the edge will see the gravity field as a line and experience gravity at 1/r?

My description of the 1/r relationship was restricted to filaments flowing in the same direction. Now if we want to compare an electrostatic field with a gravity field, then yes, both are at a ratio of 1/r2

Here are the relevant equations:

Gravity field:
Image

Electrostatic field:
Image

Electrodynamic field of particles in relative motion:
Image

Can you show how a gravity field can diminish at 1/r instead of 1/r2. Am I missing something, or what? Wouldn't be the first time. :?
On a personal note, I wasn't all that surprised to see Lloyd's post, but was pretty surprised by solrey's, given his statement about the need to understand the relevant textbook physics before being in a position to criticise (or attack) it (I don't need to cite this statement of yours, here in this forum, do I solrey?).
Touche'. However, as I recall, that comment was regarding your statement that electrical theorists have not acknowledged fractals in plasma and I provided several links where electrical theorists have indeed acknowledged the fractal nature of plasma. To me that's pretty common knowledge, it's not hard to find and that's the material I was referring to when I said you should read it before you criticize it. Feign, duck, jab... ;)
Gauss' law; Physicist introduced it to forum members here (and I sorta used it here); it's a very powerful tool (among other things, it allows you to treat spheres as points, cylinders as lines, etc ... with the relevant caveats kept firmly in mind of course)
Could you be more condescending? Come on now, many of us here on this forum are quite familiar with Gauss law, among other laws of physics, so we don't need Nereid or Physicist to "introduce" these "new" concepts to us. I can't deny that there are quite a few who may not yet be familiar with certain physical laws, but regardless of one's current level of knowledge, we are all in the process of learning more. I would suggest you not lump all forum members into the same category.

Your contention that plasma is overall electrically "neutral" is another gross oversimplification. Charge separation is common within a bulk neutral plasma, which seems to be something that most skeptics just refuse to accept.

I welcome your reasonable challenges and skepticism, Nereid, but the underlying condescending tone...not so much. :)

cheers
“Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality"
Nikola Tesla

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Re: About this 1/r vs 1/r^2 thing ...

Unread post by jjohnson » Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:52 pm

Here http://www.pgccphy.net/ref/gravity.pdf is a short paper, Gauss's Law for Gravity, which explains the 1/r formula for the gravitational field around an infinitely long, isotropic density distribution such as a long thin cylinder. See Formula 17. Also note on page 4 that these same manipulations apply equally to electromagnetic attractions and repulsions, as well as the falloff with distance of the intensity of light (EM radiation). This is in part why fields can be so useful a construct in envisioning a process or a "law".

This has little to do, I submit, with the attractive (Biot-Savart) forces between two current-carrying plasma filaments when their currents are in the same direction. A current constitutes a dynamic, not a static situation. A current may consist of all positive charges moving in one direction, or all (or nearly all) negative charges moving in the other direction, or some mix of both with like charges moving in their respective directions. Moving is the operative word with charges. This is not like gravitational attraction: bulk moving masses do not affect or change how gravity works in non-relativistic situations. The Biot-Savart forces in long Birkeland plasma filaments are attractive at long range but evolve to short-term repulsive forces as the separation decreases. I don't know if mass moving at close to c exhibits merely a higher inertial mass, or whether its "real" or gravitational mass is actually increased so that it might exert a stronger gravity field on other masses. If the latter, then you'd think that a relativistic beam of protons in an accelerator would "pinch" together as their attractive forces tried to accelerate them transversely toward each other across their line of flight. (Which, of course, is accelerated and steered by electric and magnetic fields, and not big masses.)

Jim

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solrey
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Re: About this 1/r vs 1/r^2 thing ...

Unread post by solrey » Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:48 am

Thanks Jim. I suppose now would be a good time for me to brush up on the manipulations of Gauss' law for gravity. :?

cheers
“Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality"
Nikola Tesla

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Re: About this 1/r vs 1/r^2 thing ...

Unread post by jjohnson » Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:54 pm

Solrey,
I was just posting that paper because it is an easy (to read, anyway) explanation, and we all love Gauss and Maxwell and Farad and the old electricity guys. I am too rusty on my calculus to actually work this, but since it is analogous to my acoustical experience, (which uses decibel notation rather than gravity or EM magnitude) I can at least understand the principal.

Anyway, regarding your question about the way a test mass (I like to use a 1 kg test mass because its unity value lets you ignore it in subsequent manipulations - well, most, anyway) sees a galaxy's gravity from a point outside the disk but more or less in the disk plane. Recall Nereid's infinitely long thin wire. Is that the mass distribution in a spiral galaxy, seen edge on from outside the disk? Not really, because the density of stars would vary as you looked along the disk plane from left to center to right, for two reasons (ignoring large heavy stars and light dwarfs - and interstellar medium; assume all mass distributes equally for this thought experiment:
1. Stellar population density is generally thinner out toward the tips of spiral arms, and the less populated "gaps" between the richer arms are wider out there.
2. Geometrically, a sightline from your position through the galaxy intersects a very short segment of galaxy (which you can approximate as a circle) when it is nearly tangent - hence, fewer stars along that line. As it moves toward the center the chord increases in length until it becomes the diameter, and as your sightline is rotated past the center it becomes a shorter and shorter chord, disappearing as it is tangent to the edge of the visible galaxy. It's as if the long thin wire exhibited a higher mass bulge toward its center.

A large fraction of the mass is in the not very extended central portion, and that may dominate the "rule" that determines the strength of the field at your distance from the galaxy. If the galaxy were hundreds of millions of light years away, its width "collapses" to a point, and its gravitational strength is proportional to 1/r². If you are just on the rim, the disk plane would effectively be infinitely wide, but with the lumpiness of a circular matter distribution seen edge-on, it would not be as strong as (or quite proportional to) 1/r¹. It might be 1/r^(1.092) or something like that. As you move farther out, the exponent of r transitions smoothly toward 2.

As long as the mass is distributed symmetrically about the center, the final gravity force vector points from the test mass directly at the center - hence the term, center of gravity, or mass, if you're picky. ;)

All the masses along the line between the test mass and the center of gravity have all their mass acting on the test mass. Everything else, left and right of the centerline, exerts only a fraction of its mass along the centerline direction, and the other vector component is exerted to try to attract the test mass to the left or right. These off-center vector components all cancel, with that even mass distribution, so the final attractive force toward the center is the sum of all the vector components parallel to the test-mass-to-galactic-center line. As usual with vectors. With a galaxy like ours, that's only about a hundred to two hundred bazillion vectors to figure... for me, some simplification would be required!

I am not real sure why we're talking about linear mass concentrations and 1/r gravity, since to my knowledge you can't build a heavy enough long thin mass and test it effectively within Earth's gravity field at the surface, and such masses might be approximated in cosmic-scaled birkeland currents (which are naturally long and stringy, but also complex and not necessarily isotropic or straight. —and provide their own forces to control the action). I guess it's enough to just know what might happen if you understand the applicable supporting math. However, IF gravity works differently at different scales (which I don't have a supportable opinion on) then one has to wonder if a galaxy would actually operate on a test mass the same way a star or a very long piece of rebar might. Hell; who knows?!

Jim

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Re: About this 1/r vs 1/r^2 thing ...

Unread post by jacmac » Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:58 pm

A question for Solrey, or anyone.

You said:
" a plasma filament is more like a straw with the current concentrated in two concentric charge sheath layers."

Is there any pattern to the " two concentric sheath layers" ? I know this material is very complicated, but I was wondering what the cross section of a "filament" might look like? Is there any tendency for Electrons to be on the inside and Positive ions on the outside, or the reverse, or what ? Also, I realize there might be many uncharged particles involved.

Sorry if this is off topic but I was wondering !!

Jack

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Re: About this 1/r vs 1/r^2 thing ...

Unread post by Solar » Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:37 pm

jacmac wrote:A question for Solrey, or anyone.

You said:
" a plasma filament is more like a straw with the current concentrated in two concentric charge sheath layers."

Is there any pattern to the " two concentric sheath layers" ? I know this material is very complicated, but I was wondering what the cross section of a "filament" might look like? Is there any tendency for Electrons to be on the inside and Positive ions on the outside, or the reverse, or what ? Also, I realize there might be many uncharged particles involved.

Sorry if this is off topic but I was wondering !!

Jack
Hello J.

The “Double Helix Nebula” is the like the ‘tip’ of a supposed 300 light year long Birkeland Current. On the following UCLA page notice the image on the right which contrast the “Double Helix Nebula” with shorter-wavelength infrared image. That image reveals the supposed 300 light year length of the Birkeland Current as it extends from the bright ‘center’ of the Milky Way.

Then go: “The Double Helix Nebula: a magnetic torsional wave propagating out of the Galactic centreM. Morris et al 2005 and follow the length of the “cylindrical channel” even further into the Milky ‘center’ where it finds purchase in contact with a “molecular cloud.” The bight zone wherein this Birkeland Current makes interactive contact with, I think “molecular cloud M-0.02-0.07, is called Sag A* pronounced “Sagittarius A Star.”

Then go National Radio Astronomy “Galactic Center,” this is the “plasma-focused plasmoid” formed wherein the 300 light year long Birkeland Current interacts with the “molecular cloud.”

When further resolved the “point source” or “likely … black hole” (per the caption) is also called a “mini spiral.” That naturally occurring ‘formation’ is also called a ‘Triskelion’ or “Triskell.

It has a torus component called the “Circumnuclear Disk” as profiled in “A trip to Galactic CenterA. Tanner & the Ghez Group.

In spite of all of that evidence, the power of observation, the talent, the skill in all of those references supposedly, “gas” from the torus of the “circumnucelear disk” is ‘falling’ towards the center of a black hole. How does anything ‘fall’ towards the center of a torus?? It doesn’t. It has to be ‘drawn’ towards that location; doesn't it?

Anyways, a ‘down the barrel view’ of one of the Milky Way’s very own massive Birkeland Currents presents the natural formation of a Triskleion enclosed by a circle, or torus, as "gas' & dust' are 'evacuated.'
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden

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Re: About this 1/r vs 1/r^2 thing ...

Unread post by Goldminer » Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:25 pm

jjohnson wrote:Even rocks like asteroids in inter-galactic-cluster space will continue to radiate, if I understand thermal radiation. Radiation is a little like motion. All matter has it. — unless you posit a reference frame at the same velocity as the object(s) of interest, anyway.

Question 1: is it "legal" (useful?) to posit a reference frame which is not moving relative to a photon. in order to examine, describe or otherwise investigate that photon?
Jim, Your leading statement to Question 1 answers the question. The question is supposedly what caused Einstein to pursue his theories. The answer is that you would see nothing, since the "light" wave would be red shifted out of view. Moving slightly slower than the wave, you might be able to measure the "trade-off" between the electric and magnetic portions of the wave, but antenna technicians know that the two fields are parallel in the far field, still out of phase.
I sense a disturbance in the farce.

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Re: About this 1/r vs 1/r^2 thing ...

Unread post by jjohnson » Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:27 pm

Excellent sequence of sources, Solar - I've copied them all into a Galactic Center folder. Thanks!

Goldminer - Thanks - wish I knew half the stuff that antenna technicians know. The wave-particle duality is still confusing, but I do realize that if it's a wave, and you are moving with it at c, you would always see "no waving" - i.e., no cyclic change over time. If you are at the peak along the wave, all you could measure would be the peak "level" (as if...). Much like a surfer surfing "downhill" on the always rising front of the wave, staying the same altitude on the wave as it rolls in toward the beach. Got it. Danke sehr, m'man!

Jim

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