Prominent attributes young Birkeland knew: ES explanations?

[Nereid]

What were the prominent attributes of the Sun, known to astronomers in 1885, when Birkeland was an 18-year old teenager?

And what are the explanations of these features, in the electric Sun model?

That the Sun emits light, infrared, and ultraviolet was known, as was the spectrum of the Sun (at least for part of this stretch of what we today call the electromagnetic spectrum). The absorption lines of many elements had been detected, including those attributed to a new element - helium - whose existence on Earth was reported when Birkeland was just 16 (or so). However, that the Sun emits gammas, x-rays, microwaves, and radio waves was not known; indeed, none of these had been discovered yet (though their existence was predicted by Maxwell's equations, published some two decades earlier). The topic of whether the electric Sun model explains these prominent attributes (or not) is something I'll cover in a later post.

The Sun is bright, and its energy output - in the form of ultraviolet, light, and infrared - is very steady. The Sun is round - spherical - with a radius of 695,000 km, which has not changed in several thousand years. These two prominent attributes were well-known in 1885, and there are two threads discussing how - and how well - the electric Sun model explains them: Electric Sun: A Quantitative Calculation and Electric Sun: Why the Sun is round.

Above the Sun's surface (photosphere) there is a corona, chromosphere, and, occasionally, prominences. There are reliable reports of observations of the corona and prominences stretching back to ancient China, but when the chromosphere was discovered I haven't been able to determine (though it was certainly before 1885). Published materials on the electric Sun model contain a great deal on the chromosphere and corona - enough to warrant their own thread - but not so much on prominences (so I'll cover how - and how well - the electric Sun model explains them in a later post in this thread).

On the Sun's surface there are sunspots (also known for several thousand years), faculae, granulation, plages (these are actually in the chromosphere), flares, and filaments: all known to astronomers in 1885. Like the chromosphere and corona, granulation features prominently in published materials on the electric Sun model - so it too probably deserves its very own thread. Not much on flares, so I'll cover them in a later post in this thread. Filaments are more tricky to address; the word is very frequent in published materials on the electric Sun model, but is used to mean several quite different things. I'm not sure how best to proceed here. I have yet to find either faculae (singular facula) or plages mentioned in any published materials on the electric Sun model, much less an explanation of them.

The solar cycle and the Sun's rotation were both known to astronomers in 1885; they are both covered in published materials on the electric Sun model, and I'll look at explanations of them in later posts.

The Sun has a mass of 2 x 10^30 kg, and an average density of 1.4 x 10^3 kg/m^3; how - and how well - the electric Sun model explains them I'll also cover in a later post in this thread.

Anything else?

I can think of only one: limb darkening. I have yet to find limb darkening mentioned in any published materials on the electric Sun model, much less an explanation of it.

Have I missed any prominent attributes of the Sun, that would have been known to an 18 year-old Birkeland (had he been an avid reader of astronomical publications)?

Does any reader know of published materials on the electric Sun model which contain explanations of faculae? plages? limb darkening?

[davesmith_au]

Nereid. What does it matter, what Birkeland knew about the Sun some 20 or so years BEFORE he published his rather predictive findings from his polar expedition?

How do you, who does not have and have not read all of the published EU material propose to educate the rest of the world on the specifics of the Electric Sun model?

You already have displayed ignorance of the very nature of circuits by your banging on in one of the other threads about the Sun as a 'Hotel California' for electrons, and asking where the 'wires' are. Really, I don't see the point in you trying to direct discussions of an hypothesis you seem to have no genuine interest in understanding.

Cheers, Dave.

[psychegram]

So far as I know, Birkeland never proposed an ES model per se ... I don't think he had anything to say about what powered the Sun at all. He merely suggested that there were electric currents between the Sun and the Earth, as an explanation for the aurora. I'd be fascinated to be wrong about this, however.

So, yes ... that was an interesting post Nereid, but could you explain why you're asking this question?

As to limb darkening, so far as I know there's nothing but a few random forum posts, here and elsewhere, none of which seemed particularly helpful. But it's a very good point. It seems fairly obvious that the phenomenon implies an increasing temperature with depth, which seems clear evidence for internal energy production. But even at the centre of the disk we're still seeing nothing but photosphere, so what could be happening is that the photosphere indeed increases in temperature with depth, but only up to/around the limit that we can see. I'll admit that seems a stretch even to me, an unnecessarily convoluted violation of Occam's razor. But it's the best I can do on short notice

[MrAmsterdam]

http://www-spof.gsfc.nasa.gov/Education/wcurrent.html

Electric Currents from Space
-
When in 1973 the navy satellite Triad (see history) flew through this region in a low-altitude orbit, its magnetometer indeed detected the signatures of two large sheets of electric current, one coming down on the morning side of the auroral zone, one going up on the evening side, as expected. Because Kristian Birkeland had proposed long before currents which linked Earth and space in this fashion, they were named Birkeland currents (by Schield, Dessler and Freeman, in a 1969 article predicting some of the features observed by Triad). Typically, each sheet carries a million amperes or more.

Nereid, on your question; anything else I forgot? Yes you forgot the to mention electric currents from space as predicted by Birkeland. Luckily Mr Birkeland did not stop reading and examing natural phenomena after his 18th birthday, which led him to hypothesize about electric currents from the sun and correctly predict some features.

What were the prominent attributes of the Sun, known to astronomers in 1885, when Birkeland was an 18-year old teenager?

And what are the explanations of these features, in the electric Sun model?

How many more times do you want forum members to tell you to use plasma ball as an empirical example for the sun. Did you measure the properties of the EMF, MF and EF of a 'plasma ball' yet like they did in the beginning of the 20th century?

[Solar]

Sounds like an inquiry that also needs to take into consideration the work of Charles Bruce as well.

[starbiter]

Can't forget the creator of "The Electric Sun", Ralph Juergens.

http://www.kronos-press.com/juergens/index.htm

In the link below Juergens gives credit to Melvin Cook.

http://www.electricuniverse.info/Electric_Sun_theory

The Electric Sun is often attributed to a 1972 article by Ralph Juergens,[1] who acknowledges priority to a 1958 Melvin Cook monograph, and inspiration from Immanuel Velikovsky's 1946 monograph, Cosmos Without Gravitation (though Velikovsky himself did not endorse it, see below). Others who have continued to research and promote the Electron Sun theory include Wal Thornhill, and Don Scott.
The Electric Sun model is a part of the Electric Universe theory.


A little Juergens history.

http://www.velikovsky.info/Ralph_Juergens

I wish i had a chance to meet the gentleman.

michael

[mharratsc]

Perhaps we can take Ms. Nereid's interest in the lack of any topical analysis of 'limb-darkening' as a helpful suggestion, so as to better reinforce the Electric Sun model holistically?

[Nereid]

Nereid. What does it matter, what Birkeland knew about the Sun some 20 or so years BEFORE he published his rather predictive findings from his polar expedition?

As I had originally intended it, it doesn't matter at all; I used Birkeland's name as a way to capture interest (the date - 1885 - is more important).

However, now I realise that it is actually quite germane! (more later).

Thanks to psychegram, MrAmsterdam, Solar, starbiter, and mharratsc for your posts and inputs.

As to limb darkening, so far as I know there's nothing but a few random forum posts, here and elsewhere, none of which seemed particularly helpful.

Can you provide some links, or references, please? I found nothing at all.

MrAmsterdam, Solar, starbiter: I have found nothing, in any of those links, on faculae, plages, or limb darkening. If you found any mention of any of these, would you mind pointing them out please?

Perhaps we can take Ms. Nereid's interest in the lack of any topical analysis of 'limb-darkening' as a helpful suggestion, so as to better reinforce the Electric Sun model holistically?

I know I am woefully ignorant on the Electric Sun model, but I've been surprised at how little there seems to be, in terms of published Electric Universe theory (with respect to the Sun) that presents explanations for quite a number of prominent attributes of the Sun that have been known for well over a century.

[Nereid]

I know that there is published EU theory material on the formation of stars and solar systems, within which there is, I suspect, an explanation of how a star like the Sun came to be rotating (and, maybe, why it has the rotation period it is observed to have). However, in this post I'll look at the Electric Sun model explanation for the observed differential rotation of the photosphere.

There's just two pairs of references to this in Thornhill and Talbott (2008) ("The Electric Universe Sun"). The first is on pp24/25:

On the right is a list of prominent attributes of the Sun.

Every feature listed poses a problem the thermonuclear model cannot easily explain.

But these features can be explained by another model.

[from the list on the right]
differential rotation by latitude
differential rotation by depth

and on pp100 there is a list with the same two 'prominent attributes'; on p101 this: "We have only given four examples above, but virtually all of the ‘issues’ and solar attributes (left) can be explained by the ‘electric’ model, using well-established science that has been tested and replicated in laboratories."

The two 'differential rotation' items are not among the 'four examples above', and no reference is given to where they are explained.

I could find nothing at all on what the electric Sun model explanation for the Sun's differential rotation is, in any other published EU theory materials (i.e. the IEEE papers, Scott's Electric Sun, TPODs, the holoscience website), beyond statements in various forms that the model can, indeed, provide such an explanation.

Does any reader know of any?

[Solar]

MrAmsterdam, Solar, starbiter: I have found nothing, in any of those links, on faculae, plages, or limb darkening. If you found any mention of any of these, would you mind pointing them out please?
(snip)
I know I am woefully ignorant on the Electric Sun model, but I've been surprised at how little there seems to be, in terms of published Electric Universe theory (with respect to the Sun) that presents explanations for quite a number of prominent attributes of the Sun that have been known for well over a century.

Again, I would refer you to correlative investigation and/or research of such things using information already available in the literature. Such as:

Heating of faculae by electric currents: Kononovich, E. V.; Mironova, I. V.; Serebryakov, B. E 1986

The relation between electric conductivity in faculae and in the Bilderberg model of the photosphere Kopecký, M. & Soytürk, E. 1971

Results. We find that the SBCS rotate faster than the considered upper subphotospheric layer (3Mm) by about 0.5 deg/day at the equator. This result joins the results of several other magnetic features (sunspots, plages, faculae, etc.) with a higher rotation than the solar plasma. – “Comparison of the sidereal angular velocity of subphotospheric layers and small bright coronal structures during the declining phase of solar cycle 23

The generalization to a more complicated solar magnetic field is discussed. The electromagnetic torque on the sun slows its rotation and for λ ≠ 0° or 90° also has oscillating components in the two directions perpendicular to the spin axis. These components tend to increase λ, indicating that the stable configuration is λ = 90°. For a given dipole moment, λ = 90° is also the orientation that maximizes the electromagnetic braking. Possible electromagnetic contributions to the sun’s differential rotation are also considered. – Electric Currents in the Solar Wind

It is argued that differential rotation of the photospheric magnetic fields will induce currents in the corunna.
(…)
Differential rotation of magnetic fields will induce electric currents in the photosphere and corona. – Differential Rotation and the Structure and Energy Content of Coronal Magnetic Fields

Faculae are bright plages observed in H_ or photospheric lines. They are considered as magnetized regions constituted of a bundle of thin vertical flux tubes with a magnetic field strength of thousands of gauss and a size of tens to hundreds of kilometers (Zwaan, 1987). Similar values for field strength and size of the flux tubes have been found by analyzing the ratio of Stokes V signals in the Fe i 5250.2°A, Fe i5247.1 °A, and Fe i5232.9 °A lines, for a spatially unresolved photospheric network (Stenflo, 1973). The flux tubes are located at the boundaries of granules and bundled by the convection flow. Since the pressure of the solar atmosphere decreases with height, the tubes expand and the magnetic field strengths decrease to compensate the pressure decrease. The network field expands rapidly with height and forms a canopy above the internetwork region. Similarly, the faculae would be bundles of flux tubes expanding with height. – Magnetic Field Structures in a Facular Region Observed by THEMIS and Hinode

Etc, etc, etc.

That being said, have I ever found work on faculae, plages, or limb darkening, differential rotation in the EU literature? No; not that I recall. Upon researching the topic in a correlative manner as briefly exemplified above do I want, or need, to? Well no; not really. Do works exist in the established literature that substantiates, backs up, or supports positing the dynamics of plasma and electricity as significant contributors to cosmic dynamics? Yes.

Again, maybe it's just me but when I have such questions I simply go research information already contained in the literature myself if, where, or when it is available. Have you tried that approach or am I missing something? If you ask me the Electric Universe has been sitting in the literature for “well over a century” but a preoccupation with gravity and relativity seems to have left all of it waiting in the wings.

*shrug* If I find anything though; I'll be happy to let you know.

[Nereid]

The Electric Sun Hypothesis (Scott) says this about prominences:

Prominences, Flares, and CME's

All of the above discussion applies to the steady-state (or almost steady-state) operation of the Electric Sun. But there are several dynamic phenomena such as flares, prominences, and coronal mass ejections (CME's) that we observe. How are they produced? Nobel laureate Hannes Alfven, although not aware of the Juergens Electric Sun model, advanced his own theory (3) of how prominences and solar flares are formed electrically. It is completely consistent with the Juergens model. It too is electrical.
Any electric current, i, creates a magnetic field (the stronger the current - the stronger the magnetic field, and the more energy it contains). Curved magnetic fields cannot exist without either electrical currents or time varying electric fields. Energy, Wm, stored in any magnetic field, is given by the expression
Wm = 1/2 Li ^2. If the current, i, is interrupted, the field collapses and its energy must be delivered somewhere. The magnetic field of the Sun sometimes, and in some places on its surface, forms an "omega" shaped loop. This loop extends out through the double sheath layer (DL) of the chromosphere. One of the primary properties of Birkeland currents is that they generally follow magnetic field lines. A strong looping current will produce a secondary toroidal magnetic field that will surround and try to expand the loop. If the current following the loop becomes too strong, the DL will be destroyed1. This interrupts the current (like opening a switch in an inductive circuit) and the energy stored in the primary magnetic field is explosively released into space.

Hannes Alfven's Solar Prominence Circuit TRACE Image of Plasma Loops

Although it's not 100% clear, the electric Sun hypothesis (or model) - with respect to prominences (and flares? more later) - is that published by Alfvén (as far as I know, Alfvén wrote more papers on these topics than Juergens, and they are both more detailed and potentially testable). If so, then this 1967 paper, by Carlqvist and Alfvén, may be a key EU theory one: Energy source of the solar wind.

Does any reader know of a more pertinent paper by Alfvén, in which an electric Sun model explanation of prominences is presented?

Solar: I'll respond to your (excellent!) post later.

[Nereid]

The best source - published material on EU theory, by electric theorists - that I could find is the same one I quoted from in my previous post, on prominences, Scott's The Electric Sun Hypothesis.

Here are a few other sources:

Coronal arches and multiple loop structures connect sunspots and rise up to penetrate the chromosphere. The chromosphere is a plasma sheath, or double layer region of the Sun, where most of its electrical energy is contained. When the current flowing into the Sun's plasma sheath increases beyond a critical threshold it can trigger a sudden release of that energy, causing solar flares and enormous prominence eruptions.

Powerful looping electric currents generate secondary toroidal magnetic fields that surround the loop. When the current grows too strong, the plasma double layer is destroyed. That event interrupts the current flow and the stored electromagnetic energy is blasted into space as a solar flare. Solar flares can therefore be thought of as tremendous lightning bursts, discharging vast quantities of matter at near relativistic speeds.

((source)

Hannes Alfvén suggested that billions of volts could exist across a typical solar flare double layer.

(source)

It is a situation we see on the Sun where the hardest radiation comes from high above the photosphere, except when an arc touches down and a solar flare results.

(source)

Although it's not 100% clear, the electric Sun hypothesis (or model) - with respect to flares - is that published by Alfvén (as far as I know, Alfvén wrote more papers on these topics than Juergens, and they are both more detailed and potentially testable). If so, then this 1967 paper, by Carlqvist and Alfvén, may be a key EU theory one: Currents in the Solar Atmosphere and a Theory of Solar Flares.

Does any reader know of a more pertinent paper by Alfvén, in which an electric Sun model explanation of solar flares is presented?

[Nereid]

Again, I would refer you to correlative investigation and/or research of such things using information already available in the literature. Such as:
[...]
Etc, etc, etc.

That being said, have I ever found work on faculae, plages, or limb darkening, differential rotation in the EU literature? No; not that I recall. Upon researching the topic in a correlative manner as briefly exemplified above do I want, or need, to? Well no; not really. Do works exist in the established literature that substantiates, backs up, or supports positing the dynamics of plasma and electricity as significant contributors to cosmic dynamics? Yes.

It's this last question which I think points to a difference between the way you and I approach this topic, and - I suspect - some foundational ideas in EU theory.

Again, maybe it's just me but when I have such questions I simply go research information already contained in the literature myself if, where, or when it is available. Have you tried that approach or am I missing something?

Yes, I think you are.

And it's such a big something - and, possibly, central to EU theory - that it deserves its own thread. Let's continue discussion in the Electric Sun model and correlative investigation thread.

If I find anything though; I'll be happy to let you know.

Thanks.

[Solar]

Again, I would refer you to correlative investigation and/or research of such things using information already available in the literature. Such as:
[...]
Etc, etc, etc.

That being said, have I ever found work on faculae, plages, or limb darkening, differential rotation in the EU literature? No; not that I recall. Upon researching the topic in a correlative manner as briefly exemplified above do I want, or need, to? Well no; not really. Do works exist in the established literature that substantiates, backs up, or supports positing the dynamics of plasma and electricity as significant contributors to cosmic dynamics? Yes.

It's this last question which I think points to a difference between the way you and I approach this topic, and - I suspect - some foundational ideas in EU theory.

Well yes, of course we have different approaches. I'm not sure why a different thread is needed (focus again?) but sure; I'll comment on you initial post tomorrow, its late and I'm tired.

[MrAmsterdam]

Nereid, is this an electric engineer at work?

Or is this gentleman an astronomer replicating some properties of the sun and earth in a plasma lab?

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/File:Birkeland-terrella.jpg

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Terrella