Young Galaxies "Surprisingly" Magnetic

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substance
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Young Galaxies "Surprisingly" Magnetic

Unread post by substance » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:46 pm

Gee, you don`t say!
Young Galaxies Surprisingly Magnetic - SPACE.COM
They`re on the right track, but the way they seem to "find" this seems somehow wrong to me. They measure the radio signal of quasars behind "young and distant" galaxies. But if Halton Arp is right about quasars, than these can be actually in front of the galaxies, they look at.
And again it`s full of crappy theories:
Scientists think galactic magnetic fields start from tiny magnetic seeds, perhaps created inside stars or quasars
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Re: Young Galaxies "Surprisingly" Magnetic

Unread post by junglelord » Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:37 am

It is amazing how often they throw around magnetic theory and fantasy, yet NEVER speak of electric currents.
Kinda blows your mind after a while, a little like brain washing.
:twisted:
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Re: Young Galaxies "Surprisingly" Magnetic

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:41 am

Magnetic seeds? Oh dear. Do I hear the sound of a barrel bottom being scraped?
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Re: Young Galaxies "Surprisingly" Magnetic

Unread post by junglelord » Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:17 am

Grey Cloud wrote:Magnetic seeds? Oh dear. Do I hear the sound of a barrel bottom being scraped?
I am pretty sure they use those magnetic seeds for prostate cancer....
:D :lol: :roll:
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
— Junglelord.
Knowledge is Structured in Consciouness. Structure and Function Cannot Be Seperated.
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Re: Young Galaxies "Surprisingly" Magnetic

Unread post by MGmirkin » Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:59 am

Grey Cloud wrote:Magnetic seeds? Oh dear. Do I hear the sound of a barrel bottom being scraped?
"Yes sir!"

*Scraping the bottom of the barrel now, SIR!*

:mrgreen:

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Re: Young Galaxies "Surprisingly" Magnetic

Unread post by MGmirkin » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:03 am

junglelord wrote:
Grey Cloud wrote:Magnetic seeds? Oh dear. Do I hear the sound of a barrel bottom being scraped?
I am pretty sure they use those magnetic seeds for prostate cancer....
:D :lol: :roll:
No, no, no, you've got it all wrong!

They're the magnetic seeds that grow a magnetic beanstalk!

Birkeland current, whatnow? :o

Image

*wink* ;)

~Michael Gmirkin
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Re: Young Galaxies "Surprisingly" Magnetic

Unread post by MGmirkin » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:22 am

See comment on both Digg stories...

(Galaxies Surprisingly Magnetic.)
http://digg.com/space/Young_Galaxies_Su ... Magnetic_2

(Young Galaxies Surprisingly Magnetic)
http://digg.com/space/Young_Galaxies_Su ... y_Magnetic

Quoted here for convenience:
I wrote:When will astronomers learn that plasmas aren't perfect conductors, there can be charge separation in space and, most importantly, ONLY electric currents spawn magnetic fields?

(HyperPhysics - Magnetic Field)
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... agfie.html

"Magnetic fields are produced by electric currents, which can be macroscopic currents in wires, or microscopic currents associated with electrons in atomic orbits."

(NASA - Magnetic Fields)
http://www-istp.gsfc.nasa.gov/Education/wmfield.html

"In 1821 Hans Christian Oersted in Denmark found, unexpectedly, that ... an electric current caused a compass needle to move. An electric current produced a magnetic force!

Andre-Marie Ampere in France soon unraveled the meaning. The fundamental nature of magnetism was not associated with magnetic poles or iron magnets, but with electric currents. The magnetic force was basically a force between electric currents"

(World Health Organization - What are electromagnetic fields?)
http://www.who.int/peh-emf/about/WhatisEMF/en/

"Electric fields are created by differences in voltage: the higher the voltage, the stronger will be the resultant field. Magnetic fields are created when electric current flows: the greater the current, the stronger the magnetic field. An electric field will exist even when there is no current flowing. If current does flow, the strength of the magnetic field will vary with power consumption but the electric field strength will be constant."

(Wikipedia - Electromagnetic field)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_field

"The electromagnetic field is a physical field produced by electrically charged objects. It affects the behaviour of charged objects in the vicinity of the field.

...

The field can be viewed as the combination of an electric field and a magnetic field. The electric field is produced by stationary charges, and the magnetic field by moving charges (currents); these two are often described as the sources of the field. The way in which charges and currents interact with the electromagnetic field is described by Maxwell's equations and the Lorentz force law."

Stationary [more-or-less, relative to each other] charges result in an electric field (this falls under electrostatics). Moving charges, in electric circuits, result in magnetic fields (this falls under electrodynamics).

(Wikipedia - Electrostatics)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrostatics

(Wikipedia - Electrodynamics)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrodynamics

Don't believe me? I suggest you read the references or look it up for yourself...

This isn't rocket science, people! It's electrical engineering and plasma physics.


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"The purpose of science is to investigate the unexplained, not to explain the uninvestigated." ~Dr. Stephen Rorke
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Re: Young Galaxies "Surprisingly" Magnetic

Unread post by MGmirkin » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:40 am

I've also added additional thoughts to the commentary on the article itself:
I wrote:Rascal_sage wrote:

How can a galaxy form without magnetic fields? As soon as stars begin forming, you've got hot, ionized gas swirling around, and with that comes magnetic fields. What were they expecting?

----------

MGmirkin writes:
Not exactly. Plasma "just swirling around" may not be enough. Random motions do not a coherent current make. Nor do electrons and ions flowing [some would say neutrally] in the same direction. A bulk flow of positive ions in the SAME direction (with electrons stationary or in random/chaotic motion) would, I think, constitute a "conventional current" (following the flow of positive charges). Likewise, if positive charges are stationary or in chaotic motion, but there is a net flow of negative charges in the same direction, an "electron flow" or "electron current" (the opposite direction of "conventional current"). Or, you can have positive charges moving one way AND negative charges moving the OPPOSITE direction in the SAME circuit (a bi-directional flow).

But, everything just swirling around like toilet water circling the drain (positives and negative flowing the SAME direction) would not generally be considered a current. Or at least it would have appx net zero strength. (I hope I haven't phrased that improperly.)

See William Beatty's site:

(Which way does the "electricity" really flow?)
http://amasci.com/amateur/elecdir.html

Regards,
~Michael Gmirkin
I wrote:Oh, and as the first of my two posts above shows. Magnetic fields require electric currents for their genesis and sustenance. Plasma is NOT a permanent magnet and does not "drag field lines around with it like they're 'frozen-in'."

(Double layers and circuits in astrophysics; see the sections on "frozen-in" field lines in plasma and "magnetic reconnection," as both appear to be incorrect models.)
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi. ... 013880.pdf

Magnetic fields in plasma require electric currents through the same.

Regards,
~Michael Gmirkin
"The purpose of science is to investigate the unexplained, not to explain the uninvestigated." ~Dr. Stephen Rorke
"For every PhD there is an equal and opposite PhD." ~Gibson's law

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Re: Young Galaxies "Surprisingly" Magnetic

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:14 am

Mary Mary quite contrary,
How does your garden grow?
With silver bells and cockle shells
And magnetic seeds all in a row.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

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Re: Young Galaxies "Surprisingly" Magnetic

Unread post by BullSchmutz » Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:23 am

If you plant enough magnetic seeds around your house, does it have the same effect as wearing a tin foil hat?

'Cause I'll order them off the internet, pronto.

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Re: Young Galaxies "Surprisingly" Magnetic

Unread post by Drethon » Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:13 am

I particularly like this
"The magnetic fields in these galaxies were very strong, at least as strong as they are today, at a time when the age of the universe was only one third of its current age," said researcher Francesco Miniati of the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology. "That puts strong constraints on the evolution of magnetic fields."
That doesn't instead say to you that perhaps they are not at a third of the age of the galaxy? Just a thought...

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Re: Young Galaxies "Surprisingly" Magnetic

Unread post by MGmirkin » Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:55 am

(Early galaxies had magnetic fields as strong as today's)
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/fun ... 926654.800

(Strong magnetic fields in normal galaxies at high redshift)
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 ... 07105.html

(Young Galaxies Surprisingly Magnetic)
http://www.livescience.com/space/080716 ... axies.html

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Re: Young Galaxies "Surprisingly" Magnetic

Unread post by MGmirkin » Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:58 am

BullSchmutz wrote:If you plant enough magnetic seeds around your house, does it have the same effect as wearing a tin foil hat?

'Cause I'll order them off the internet, pronto.
Absolutely! They grow up to create a Faraday garden, that protects you from all the nasty EM radiation out there... Kind of like a Faraday cage, only magnetic... No tinfoil required! [Insert techno-babble here >>> X <<<]

*Tongue planted firmly in cheek.* :D

[/Sarcasm]

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Re: Young Galaxies "Surprisingly" Magnetic

Unread post by MGmirkin » Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:00 pm

Drethon wrote:I particularly like this
"The magnetic fields in these galaxies were very strong, at least as strong as they are today, at a time when the age of the universe was only one third of its current age," said researcher Francesco Miniati of the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology. "That puts strong constraints on the evolution of magnetic fields."
That doesn't instead say to you that perhaps they are not at a third of the age of the galaxy? Just a thought...
Well, assumptions about "cosmological redshift" being what they are... I just wonder how long before that theoretical bulwark (kludge?) fails?

~Michael
"The purpose of science is to investigate the unexplained, not to explain the uninvestigated." ~Dr. Stephen Rorke
"For every PhD there is an equal and opposite PhD." ~Gibson's law

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Re: Young Galaxies "Surprisingly" Magnetic

Unread post by substance » Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:46 am

MGmirkin wrote: I just wonder how long before that theoretical bulwark (kludge?) fails?
Actually that doesn`t seem probable to happen any time soon. I am still not much of an expert on PC, but as I read such nonsence (Hawking 'close' to explaining universe's inflation), I get the feeling that they wil continue to think of new theories, adding them on top of previous unproven theories, whenever they need to explain a new observation. Even if they an asteroid passes around the Earth and a gigantic electrical discharge happens, they will still find a way to explain it with the mainstream ideas and "prove" them with mathematical equasions and computer simulations.
I seriously won`t be surprised if soon they start to speculate on the first seconds of the history of other universes in other dimensions as if they were discussing something observable and testable.
I guess pretty soon every astrophysicist out there will be growing magnetic seeds in pots around his desk, while thinking of other mad ideas.
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