Mummified Dinosaurs / electric fossilization...?

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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allynh
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Re: Mummified Dinosaurs / electric fossilization...?

Unread post by allynh » Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:31 am

Don't forget, that the tree is full of water when it petrifies. Probably half the weight, or more, of a tree when it is alive is water, so there is your Oxygen.

Think about it, when you look at a piece of petrified wood it is solid through and through. There are no holes where the sap flowed. If just the wood petrified, it would be porous.
allynh wrote: Look at the list of silicate materials and notice how much oxygen is tied up by very little silicon.

Silicate minerals
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicate_minerals
All that extra Oxygen in the silicates comes from the entrained water.

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Brigit Bara
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Re: Mummified Dinosaurs / electric fossilization...?

Unread post by Brigit Bara » Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:21 pm

I see. :)

As for the minerals in wood,
The most common cations found in wood are calcium, potassium, and magnesium; common anions include carbonate, sulfate, phosphate, and silicate. These make up the noncombustible part of the wood, the ash.
Perhaps these small amounts of minerals in wood could also provide the color to the quartz. The minerals vary widely depending on soil and tree type, and could explain why you get sometimes very "chaotic" colors, and sometimes very orderly... ?

These Pyrite fossils could fall right into the lap of a case for fossilization by transmutation. It can't be a waterborne mineral, can it? And look at this amazing cell structure: http://www.see.leeds.ac.uk/research/igt ... ilwood.htm
If Fe=2Si+2H Si=C+O S=O+O Although, it looks like a lot of shells get pyratized.
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Brigit Bara
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Re: Mummified Dinosaurs / electric fossilization...?

Unread post by Brigit Bara » Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:39 pm

I find the subject of pyratization to be a little confusing. Here is an abstract stating some success at repeating the process:
The process of fossilization is poorly understood. However, it is central to our understanding of the evolution of life. It is unclear how plant tissues become fossilized, whether fossilization is selective to specific biopolymers, or whether original organic constituents survive. We have replicated the fossilization process in the laboratory by using both microbial and chemical approaches to pyritize plant debris. These results demonstrate that initial pyritization can be an extremely rapid process (within 80 days) and is driven by anaerobic bacterial-mediated decay. Initially, pyrite precipitates on and within plant cell walls and in the spaces between them. Further decay and infilling at all scales preserves broad cellular anatomy. The results have implications for fossilization in general and the fidelity of the taxonomic and biomolecular information preserved in fossils.
The pyrite is evidently "precipitated," and decay helps.
photo of pyratized cell structure http://www.see.leeds.ac.uk/research/igt ... _bcx15.htm

Wik says that pyrite reacts with both air and water:
Pyrite exposed to the atmosphere during mining and excavation reacts with oxygen and water to form sulfate, resulting in acid mine drainage.
And it is clear that pyrite fossils are hard to preserve once they are exposed.
The preservation of pyrite is a difficult problem. In damp conditions it rapidly decomposes to oxides of iron and sulphuric acid. This destroys any associated calcite and damages bone. Most attempts to preserve pyrite, ranging from varnishes to 5% cetrimide solution are relatively ineffective. Washing, neutralisation and storage in silicon fluid appears to be the best currently available method
Could it travel in water and fossilize something, or not? :|
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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Re: Mummified Dinosaurs / electric fossilization...?

Unread post by allynh » Fri May 01, 2009 10:10 am

Brigit wrote: Could it travel in water and fossilize something, or not?
No, LOL.

That's been the main point of what I'm saying, the combination of chemicals, isotopes, etc..., found together in the various fossils can't come together from outside sources, since all of the chemical structures are fragile and easily dissolved once exposed.

The thing to find out is, do those examples of petrified wood that have been mentioned up thread have pyrites in them. Especially the ones that were found as forests of stone trees. If they do, yet there is no concentrations of Iron and Sulfur in the surrounding soil, that would indicate transmutation.

- No outside source = no substitution.

At that point it would be up to the geologists to explain where the pyrites came from, and how an entire forest could be fossilized.

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Re: Mummified Dinosaurs / electric fossilization...?

Unread post by Lloyd » Fri May 01, 2009 9:04 pm

* Brigit said [long ago]:
- I think you may be relying on Lithium too much. Could that be? I see Australia exports quite a few tons, but it is not very abundant in earth's crust. Likewise with Boron, which you tend to use a lot. Oxygen is the ozone, in the atmosphere, in the water, and in most of the rocks. That's four convenient locations for all your transmutation needs!
- Perhaps it is just not heavy enough? I was looking at the difference in atomic numbers between rows 5 and 6 (most of them) and the difference is 32-- 4 Oxygens have been added.
* The list of transmutations involving oxygen that I gave were only those that were possible. It came from my other list on the transmutation thread, which showed all of the mathematically possible transmutations up to Rubidium. I made the new list to see if oxygen could account for much of the elements that are found up to Rubidium. And it can. Now don't complain that Li, Be, B, F etc are uncommon elements. They work with oxygen. That's what I was testing for.
* Now here's a list of Abundance of Elements in Earth’s Crust up to iron
Z –Times Expected -- Element -- Ppb.
1 -- <2.30E+02 -- H - Hydrogen -- 0.0015
2 -- <1.08E+07 -- He - Helium -- 0.000000008
3 -- <2.50E+03 -- Li - Lithium -- 0.00002
4 -- <1.48E+04 -- Be - Beryllium -- 0.0000026
5 -- <3.21E+03 -- B - Boron -- 0.00001
6 -- <6.00E+01 -- C - Carbon -- 0.00048
7 -- <9.91E+02 -- N - Nitrogen -- 0.000025
8 -- 21.7…….. -- O - Oxygen -- 0.47
9 -- <1.90E+01 -- F - Fluorine -- 0.00095
10 -- <2.46E+08 -- Ne - Neon -- 7E-11
11 -- 1.52…….. -- Na - Sodium -- 0.023
12 -- 161…….. -- Mg - Magnesium -- 0.023
13 -- 6.38…….. -- Al - Aluminum -- 0.082
14 -- 22.7…….. -- Si - Silicon -- 0.28
15 -- <1.10E+01 -- P - Phosphorus -- 0.001
16 -- <4.20E+01 -- S - Sulfur -- 0.00026
17 -- <7.50E+01 -- Cl - Chlorine -- 0.00013
18 -- <7.24E+03 -- Ar - Argon -- 0.0000012
19 -- 2.37…….. -- K - Potassium -- 0.021
20 -- 4.74…….. -- Ca - Calcium -- 0.041
21 -- <4.82E+02 -- Sc - Scandium -- 0.000016
22 -- <1.00E+00 -- Ti - Titanium -- 0.0056
23 -- <4.30E+01 -- V - Vanadium -- 0.00016
24 -- <6.70E+01 -- Cr - Chromium -- 0.0001
25 -- <7.00E+00 -- Mn - Manganese -- 0.00095
26 -- 6.6…….. -- Fe - Iron -- 0.041
27 -- <2.94E+02 -- Co - Cobalt -- 0.00002
28 -- <7.40E+01 -- Ni - Nickel -- 0.00008
29 -- <1.09E+02 -- Cu - Copper -- 0.00005
30 -- <7.10E+01 -- Zn - Zinc -- 0.000075

* Only Oxygen, Sodium, Magnesium, Aluminum, Silicon, Potassium, Calcium & Iron seem to be more abundant than expected.
* Do you agree it's reasonable that elements were built up from Hydrogen? I suggested that Helium apparently came from 4 Hydrogens, in which 2 collapsed into neutrons. I suggested that Oxygen was built up from 4 Heliums. If we find out how 3Li7, 4Be9, 5B11 and 9Fl19 formed, then we have all the elements up to Bromine. The first 9 elements' numbers are: 1H1, 2He4, 3Li7, 4Be9, 5B11, 6C12, 7N14, 8O16 and 9Fl19. If we look at just the numbers, they're 1:1, 2:4, 3:7, 4:9, 5:11, 6:12, 7:14, 8:16, 9:19.
1:1+1:1+0:1+0:1=2:4 or 1:1+1:1+2n=2:4 [0:1 is a neutron].
1:1+2:4+2n=3:7
2:4+2:4+1n=4:9
1:1+2:4+2:4+2n=5:11
2:4+2:4+2:4=6:12
1:1+2:4+2:4+2:4+1n=7:14
2:4+2:4+2:4+2:4=8:16
1:1+2:4+2:4+2:4+2:4+1n=9:19
.
* Hydrogen atoms might convert into the needed neutrons.
* All the rest up to Bromine can be produced by transmutation from those elements plus Oxygen.
Na_11:23 = O+Li
Al_13:27 = O+B
Si_14:28 = O+C
S__16:32 = O+O
Cl_17:35 = O+F
Ar_18:40 = Co-F, Cr-C, V-B
K__19:39 = O+Na
Ca_20:40 = O+Mg
Sc_21:45 = Na+2B
T__22:48 = Cl+B
V__23:51 = Cl+2Li
Cr_24:52 = V+H, Sc+Li, T+He
Mn_25:55 = Cl+2Be, T+Li, V+He
Fe_26:56 = Sc+B, Si+4Li, Cl+3Li, Cr+He
Fe'26:54 = 2Si-2H
Co_27:59 = T+B, Cr+Li, Sc+2Li, Mn+H3
Ni_28:58 = Ca+2Be
Ni'28:62 = Mn+Li
Cu_29:63 = V+C, Sc+2Be, Fe+Li, Co+He
Cu'29:65 = V+2Li
Zn_30:64 = Cr+C
Zn'30:66 = T+2Be, Mn+B, Cu+H, Co+Li, Cr+2Li, Ni+He
Ga_31:69 = V+2Be, Mn+2Li, Cu+He
Ge_32:72 = Cu+Li, V+3Li
Br_35:79 = Ge+Li, Cu+2Li

* So remember that this is about trying to determine how the elements originally built up, instead of determining how fossils transmuted. It's going a step or more back before there were creatures that could fossilize.
* Also, note that less common elements, like Lithium etc, may be more stable when they combine with other elements via transmutation to form something else. So, after Lithium is formed it will tend to combine with something, rather than remain Lithium. That seems to be true of most of the elements.

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Re: Mummified Dinosaurs / electric fossilization...?

Unread post by Lloyd » Fri May 01, 2009 9:20 pm

* Allyn said:
the combination of chemicals, isotopes, etc..., found together in the various fossils can't come together from outside sources, since all of the chemical structures are fragile and easily dissolved once exposed
* You seem to have overlooked an earlier post here that mentioned petrified wood, I think, forming in hot mineralized water. I believe it said that the wood absorbed a lot of minerals, while soaking in the water. If you have a cut flower, or plant, in a vase of mineralized water, won't the plant take up the minerals along with the water? I'm pretty sure it will.

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Re: Mummified Dinosaurs / electric fossilization...?

Unread post by Brigit Bara » Tue May 05, 2009 4:10 am

That's perfect! It will be very helpful to have some idea of the elements if we want to get more specific about living organisms being transmuted into fossils. It just seems so lamentable that there isn't a great deal of testing and experimentation to refer to. What do they pay these scientists to do all day?

I did find this--
In 1980, writes historian Trevor Levere, University of California physicists turned an "unimaginably small sample of bismuth into gold," turning one element into another through the medium of a particle accelerator. We call such things experimental science; a medieval scholar would have called it alchemy, a lay observer magic--all of which, by Levere's account, describe modern chemistry.

http://www.amazon.com/Transforming-Matt ... 904&sr=8-1
--Only he is working in the opposite direction, from bismuth to gold.

I find it so interesting that the most reactive elements seem to work for transmutation, ie, Lloyd uses Lithium a lot and never uses Nitrogen. Now that is not a complaint! :D It just seems like transmutation is a totally different process than chemical reactions, in that the emphasis is on the protons and neutrons, not the electrons. allynh also showed the valence shells filling up and seeking stability in the transmutation process. But it seems like plenty of reactive elements are formed as well.

At any rate, the only heavier elements we need to address are Gold, and Iridium, since they come up so much. Gold should involve Si since it is associated with quartz, shouldn't it?
Last edited by Brigit Bara on Tue May 05, 2009 4:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Brigit Bara
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Re: Mummified Dinosaurs / electric fossilization...?

Unread post by Brigit Bara » Tue May 05, 2009 4:15 am

Lloyd remarked, * So remember that this is about trying to determine how the elements originally built up, instead of determining how fossils transmuted. It's going a step or more back before there were creatures that could fossilize.
Unless the heavier elements were formed episodically during catastrophes...
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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Brigit Bara
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Re: Mummified Dinosaurs / electric fossilization...?

Unread post by Brigit Bara » Tue May 05, 2009 4:22 am

Probably for another thread, but is there any chance at all that the atomic masses do not apply in the same way for transmutation as for chemistry?
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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Brigit Bara
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Re: Mummified Dinosaurs / electric fossilization...?

Unread post by Brigit Bara » Tue May 05, 2009 11:44 am

Yes I know that last question is more trouble than it is worth! :D So never mind!
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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Re: Mummified Dinosaurs / electric fossilization...?

Unread post by Lloyd » Wed May 06, 2009 1:22 pm

is there any chance at all that the atomic masses do not apply in the same way for transmutation as for chemistry?
* The atomic masses are essential for determining possible transmutation routes, but they're usually irrelevant in normal chemistry. I showed above how to mathematically transmute any element into gold etc.
physicists turned an "unimaginably small sample of bismuth into gold," turning one element into another through the medium of a particle accelerator
* If you want to discuss transmuting gold, you should do that on the transmutation thread, since this thread is for discussing fossilization.
* Here are some posts there and on this thread about transmuting gold.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=209&sid=50fe73e8c70 ... t=45#p4915
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=209&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=60#p7758
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=209&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=60#p17028
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=123&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=90#p20111
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=123&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=105#p20158
* This quote from Allyn on how gold is found in veins sure makes it sound like underground lightning forms it.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=123&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=120#p20229

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Re: Mummified Dinosaurs / electric fossilization...?

Unread post by MGmirkin » Thu May 07, 2009 9:20 am

Reining things back in...

It seems that yet another incompletely fossilized dinosaur has been found.

(Blood, tissue extracted from duck-billed dinosaur bone)
http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/2725 ... d-dinosaur
Researchers have found blood vessels and proteins in an 80-million-year-old hadrosaur fossil, strengthening evidence that tissue remains really can be extracted from such ancient fossils.
This joins the prior t-rex fossil in the category of "unfossilized remnants retrieved."

(T. Rex Soft Tissue Found Preserved)
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... issue.html

So, is this proof that fossilization is an extremely long-term thing in that it takes a long, long time for something to become a fossil, thus soft tissues can remain unmolested for a long time during the process? Or is it refutation of the process, since one would think that such tissues should have long ago ceased to be? Were the remains "mummified," "fossilized" or both?

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allynh
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Re: Mummified Dinosaurs / electric fossilization...?

Unread post by allynh » Thu May 07, 2009 1:23 pm

Soft tissue tells me that the timeline must be massively compressed. Not 70 to 80 million years but under a million. We are talking fast, intensely fast, evolution that goes along with the changing conditions on the planet when massive growth spurts occur.

I just ordered the book, The Medea Hypothesis: Is Life on Earth Ultimately Self-Destructive? by Peter Ward.

His concept is that life does not find balance, it fills all niches then destroys the biosystem. He is not a catastrophist, except for life self destructing, his timeline is the standard billions and millions of years. I would love to have a paleontologist like that come over to the Fringe side and play.

Combined with all the stuff talked about on the Forum I see planets born quickly, start growing, get seeded with life, and that life either evolves until it can gain control of the environment or it's killed by all the active processes going on around it and the next wave of successful species get their chance.

But then that's just me and my whacky imagination speaking.

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Re: Mummified Dinosaurs / electric fossilization...?

Unread post by nick c » Thu May 07, 2009 9:42 pm

hi Michael,
So, is this proof that fossilization is an extremely long-term thing in that it takes a long, long time for something to become a fossil, thus soft tissues can remain unmolested for a long time during the process? Or is it refutation of the process, since one would think that such tissues should have long ago ceased to be? Were the remains "mummified," "fossilized" or both?
I think it constitutes an overwhelming refutation. How could the tissue remain intact while the surrounding bone is undergoing the "slow" process of fossilization? It seems to me, the outer layers must have been rapidly fossilized enclosing the tissue.
Even so, how long could soft tissue be preserved? Certainly, 63+ million years seems to be unreasonable.
Nevertheless, I am quite confident that mainstream will manage to come up with some exotic or ad hoc explanation that does not let the evidence get in the way of their uniformitarian required time scale.
The results show "we don't really understand as much as we thought about how cells and tissues and molecules degrade in the protected environment of bone," said Schweitzer.
http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/2725 ... d-dinosaur
That this is the 2nd example indicates there is probably much more to be discovered, especially since the first (T-rex) example was discovered by accident only a few years ago. Of course, they would never have looked for it before. I am sure if you asked a paleontologist, previous to the discovery, he would have emphatically told you that dinosaur soft tissue preservation was impossible!

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allynh
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Re: Mummified Dinosaurs / electric fossilization...?

Unread post by allynh » Fri May 08, 2009 10:21 am

There have been many TPODs that talk about "The Finger of God" illusion created by the red shift being misunderstood. The fact that the illusion occurs when you look in any direction of the sky, with everything pointing to us, shows that red shift does not mean recessional velocity. The same thing applies for the various dating systems used in geological dating.

I think that it is strange, that the farther back in time we look, the more stable things get, the longer they last. Look at the Geological time scales, and notice that the farther in the past you look, the longer each time frame is.

Geologic time scale
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geologic_time_scale

Geologic clock
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Geologic_clock.jpg

Geological time spiral
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Geolo ... spiral.png

Geological Time Scale
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Geolo ... _Scale.png

What you are seeing is the "Geological Finger of God" pointing to the present.

When red shift is no longer recessional velocity, space gets smaller. If we could do the same with the geological dating, the Earth would get younger; much younger.

The implications of that are profound, and scary.

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