Lightning

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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seasmith
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Laser triggered lightning

Unread post by seasmith » Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:11 am

"Filaments" that conduct Electricity
...researchers used an ultra-high-power laser to trigger electrical activity in storm clouds over New Mexico, US.

They fired ultra-fast pulses of a powerful five terawatt laser into the clouds. These beams created channels of ionised molecules known as "filaments" that conduct electricity through clouds like lightning rods before it strikes earth.
http://technology.newscientist.com/arti ... harge.html
(FMV 4-17-08: split laser triggered lightning out of earthquake thread)

rstritmatter
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Artifical Lightening Created Via Plasma

Unread post by rstritmatter » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:57 pm

FYI

http://www.world-science.net/othernews/080414_lightning
(FMV 4-17-08: Artificial Lightning thread moved to Planetary Science.)
(FMV 4-17-08: Merged Artificial lightning thread with existing Laser Triggered Lightning thread.)

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Re: Laser triggered lightning

Unread post by Forum Moderator » Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:20 pm

Forum Moderator wrote:This note is to let you know that the post on laser triggered lightning by Seasmith was split out of the "Curious Cloud Formations linked to Quakes" thread. Also, the new thread "Artificial Lightning Created Via Plasma" posted by rstritmatter has been moved from the Electric Universe forum to the Planetary Science forum and merged with the newly split out "Laser Triggered Lightning" thread in order to consolidate conversation on this topic. This change should not be interpreted to reflect negatively on either Seasmith or rstritmatter. Hopefully this change will not overtly inconvenience anyone, but rather keep conversations focused and on-topic.

Thank you.

(FMV 4-17-08)

Osmosis
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Re: Laser triggered lightning

Unread post by Osmosis » Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:21 pm

The subject of triggered lightning reminded me of some speculation about what Tesla was making. Supposedly he made some sort of light projector (ultraviolet?), to increase the ionization (plasma conduit) up into a thunderstorm. :roll:

Drethon
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Article: Do cosmic rays cause lightning?

Unread post by Drethon » Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:49 am

This was a ask the experts discussion in Scientific American in the April 2008 issue. I find it rather interesting because the article basically tells us scientists don't really have a clue on lightning.

Cosmic rays come in as a possibility because they say
Decades of measurements inside thunderstorms have failed to find electric fields large enough to spontaneously spark lightning.
Instead they propose that cosmic ray showers lead to runaway breakdown.
Runaway breakdown occurs when a cosmic-ray particle hits air molecules in the atmosphere, knocking loose high-energy electrons. As these ejected electrons collide with other air molecules, they generate more runaway electrons as well as x-rays and gamma rays, resulting in an avalanche of energetic particles that tears through he cloud
They also point out observed bursts of x-rays and gamma rays in thunderstorms to suppore the proposal. The problem they state with this theory is the way lightning forms a narrow channel that conducts the electricity.


An interesting theory but I can't see how something that appears similar to a nuclear reaction can form into lightning bolts that transfer so much electricity from one level of atmosphere to another. Perhaps they are just not looking high enough to find their electric fields or the electric energy coming from the sun has low voltages in the areas they are measuring but convey enough charge to generate lightning when it reaches the earth, only being visible in the atmosphere (not sure if the principles work for this idea though...).

I thought people might be interested in hearing about this one.

(pardon any typos, I transcribed the quotes...)

seasmith
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Re: Article: Do cosmic rays cause lightning?

Unread post by seasmith » Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:33 pm

Drethon wrote:
They also point out observed bursts of x-rays and gamma rays in thunderstorms to suppore the proposal. The problem they state with this theory is the way lightning forms a narrow channel that conducts the electricity.
....a nuclear reaction can form into lightning bolts that transfer so much electricity ...
Look at the many splendid examples of 'dendritic formations', considering their fractal nature, and it's not hard to imagine that every dendrile filament can end, or begin, in a [ nuclear? ] point.
ie: Check a tree root tip in a 300x microscope.
~

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MGmirkin
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Re: Article: Do cosmic rays cause lightning?

Unread post by MGmirkin » Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:20 am

Drethon wrote:
Decades of measurements inside thunderstorms have failed to find electric fields large enough to spontaneously spark lightning.
Are they talking about intra-cloud lightning (in the same cloud), inter-cloud lightning (between two separate clouds), cloud-to-air lightning (sparks that terminate in clear air outside the cloud itself), cloud-to-ground lightning (the more commonly known lightning), or cloud-to-space lightning (upper-atmospheric lightning like gnomes, blue starters, blue jets, gigantic jets, sprites, sprite haloes, ELVEs & TIGERs)?

What was their methodology for determining electric fields, I wonder?

Cheers,
~Michael Gmirkin
"The purpose of science is to investigate the unexplained, not to explain the uninvestigated." ~Dr. Stephen Rorke
"For every PhD there is an equal and opposite PhD." ~Gibson's law

Drethon
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Re: Article: Do cosmic rays cause lightning?

Unread post by Drethon » Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:03 pm

seasmith: Sorry I was a little generic about my statement, I meant fission reactions, not nuclear reactions in general. They talk about a runaway breakdown flinging electrons sounds a lot like neutrons shooting out of a fission reaction which as far as I know runaway fission reactions always turn into a large ball of expanding energy as opposed to a nice bolt of lightning.

MGmirkin: Unfortunately what I posted is about as specific as the topic got, just lightning in general. Though this was in the same magazine that describes "How random collisions and gravity slingshots shape new solar systems" so who knows how accurate it is in general...

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junglelord
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Slow Motion Lightning Video

Unread post by junglelord » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:57 am

If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
— Junglelord.
Knowledge is Structured in Consciouness. Structure and Function Cannot Be Seperated.
— Junglelord

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MGmirkin
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Re: Slow Motion Lightning Video

Unread post by MGmirkin » Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:09 am

Absolutely amazing! Thank you for this... Really.

Confirms exactly what I thought about the relationship between lightning and "dendritic flux avalanche..." Sweet! :D

(Flux Dendrites & Lightning.)
http://thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/v ... 7414#p7414
I wrote:(Flux dendrites of opposite polarity in superconducting MgB2 rings observed
with magneto-optical imaging)
http://www.fys.uio.no/super/files/olsen06.pdf

Is it weird that page 3 of this PDF makes perfect sense to me? And the pink image of page 4?

Why? Think Lightning. It's the SAME process they're seeing, in my opinion! They're seeing the stepped leader(s), and the opposing streamer... Which will tend to follow the "best" / "strongest" path available. It's makese perfect sense to me that even at the small scale we'd see exactly the same process going on. I'm pretty sure that if they took this kind of magneto-optical image of lightning with the right sensitivities, they'd see precisely the same processes going on! The main branching streamers descent from the cloud in many directions, eventually the strongest one of them encounters a rising streamer and completes the circuit. Then the charges from the ground flows up through the strongly established channel.

At least, that's my assumption of what's going on here. Having read up a while back on lightning processes. Here's some resources detailing the current understanding of lightning. I see direct parallels. Love that plasma scaling!

(Cloud-to-Ground Lightning, parts 1 & 2)
http://wvlightning.com/cgdesc.shtml
http://wvlightning.com/rsdesc.shtml

(Step 1)
Image

(Step 2)
Image

(Step 3)
Image

(Step 4)
Image

(Step 6)
Image

(Dendritic flux avalanches in superconductors)
http://www.fys.uio.no/super/dend/#ring

Image

Cheers,
~Michael Gmirkin
Here's an image from the PDF I linked to in the other thread:

(Flux dendrites of opposite polarity in superconducting MgB2 rings observed with magneto-optical imaging - Figure 5b)
http://www.fys.uio.no/super/files/olsen06.pdf

Image

It's the same phenomenon scaling across many orders of magnitude. It also looks like I was right on about the similarity of the leader mechanism. It looks like there's a leading "hot spot" to the lightning streamer, probably with a concentration of the electric field causing ionization locally, until the atmosphere nearby gets ionized, and the air in the next layer / section of the atmosphere breaks down, with the overall stroke propagating a bit further. Eventually, one of the streamers hits ground, or hits another streamer propagating upward, and the circuit between the clouds and Earth is completed. Then you get a massive bolt of current that REALLY ionizes the channel, lights it up and transfers A LOT of charge. Followed sometimes by additional return strokes along the same path, until the charges somewhat equalize in the originating regions.

I'm floored. This is awesome!

Cheers,
~Michael Gmirkin
"The purpose of science is to investigate the unexplained, not to explain the uninvestigated." ~Dr. Stephen Rorke
"For every PhD there is an equal and opposite PhD." ~Gibson's law

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MGmirkin
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Re: Slow Motion Lightning Video

Unread post by MGmirkin » Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:13 am

Think Lightning. It's the SAME process they're seeing, in my opinion! They're seeing the stepped leader(s), and the opposing streamer... Which will tend to follow the "best" / "strongest" path available. It's makes perfect sense to me that even at the small scale we'd see exactly the same process going on. I'm pretty sure that if they took this kind of magneto-optical image of lightning with the right sensitivities, they'd see precisely the same processes going on! The main branching streamers descent from the cloud in many directions, eventually the strongest one of them encounters a rising streamer and completes the circuit. Then the charges from the ground flows up through the strongly established channel.
I guess they don't even need a magneto-optical image. Just a high speed camera. It catches the leading point of the streamers perfectly. I think it's a strong match. And why wouldn't it be? It's the same basic discharge process scaled up/down between lightning & dendritic flux avalanches. What they're seeing in super conductors is basically just miniature lightning discharges!

Good times,
~Michael Gmirkin
"The purpose of science is to investigate the unexplained, not to explain the uninvestigated." ~Dr. Stephen Rorke
"For every PhD there is an equal and opposite PhD." ~Gibson's law

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substance
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Re: Slow Motion Lightning Video

Unread post by substance » Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:03 pm

Wow, it`s absolutely stunning! :o I wonder why there are so few lightning slow-mo videos. This could prove quite handy for EU!
My personal blog about science, technology, society and politics. - Putredo Mundi

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GaryN
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Re: Slow Motion Lightning Video

Unread post by GaryN » Sat Aug 09, 2008 6:13 pm

Michaels 'hot spot' reminded me of a page I had bookmarked. I would like to have contacted someone to see if more images of surface modification were available, but could't find any contact information. Also of interest was the hexagonal features they had observed.

http://www.center.bg.ac.yu/plasma/PSM.htm
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller

Pomalee
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Plasma and Lightning: reconnecting branches

Unread post by Pomalee » Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:03 am

from an article found here: http://www.physorg.com/news141487604.html

"...with varying air composition and pressure [in nitrogen-oxygen mixtures like air], streamers can either repel or attract each other unexpectedly."

and

"branches reconnect because of a process called photo-ionization, where a cloud of electrons is created between two streamers that eventually makes the [sic] coalesce into a single, wider one."

Conclusion: "Their study offers new a perspective into understanding lightning's variable behavior."

Steve Smith
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Re: Plasma and Lightning: reconnecting branches

Unread post by Steve Smith » Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:34 am

In reality, the streamers never "coalesce" due to the other half of the "long-range attraction" equation and that is short-range repulsion. The "streamers" are actually multiple smaller filaments that rotate around one another.

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