Mars - miscellaneous anomalies

[nick c]

...I think this is hype....

Nah, NASA wouldn't stoop that low! for a publicity stunt

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/1 ... -revealed/

[neilwilkes]

http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/imagegal ... _2470.html

because it sure looks like it when you zoom right in - you can almost see lichtenberg patters on the right hand side in one of the supposed "gullies"

[D_Archer]

Probably, there is some pitting as well and a big scoop to the right, the raised channels on the ridges indicate EDM.

Regards,
Daniel

[Beata-at-home]

What is interesting also is that Mars is dry, so no water made this.

[tayga]

From the text beneath the picture:

This image was acquired in southern spring, but the flow that formed the deposit occurred in the preceding winter.

Current gully activity appears to be concentrated in winter and early spring, and may be caused by the seasonal carbon dioxide frost that is visible in gully alcoves in the winter.

I'd love to see time lapse pictures of one location to see how they justify this explanation. There clearly are raised Lichtenberg figures on the RHS of the image and hints of the same in the lower portion of the large ridge in middle. I wonder what processes NASA imagines causes these.

[neilwilkes]

From the text beneath the picture:

This image was acquired in southern spring, but the flow that formed the deposit occurred in the preceding winter.

Current gully activity appears to be concentrated in winter and early spring, and may be caused by the seasonal carbon dioxide frost that is visible in gully alcoves in the winter.

I'd love to see time lapse pictures of one location to see how they justify this explanation. There clearly are raised Lichtenberg figures on the RHS of the image and hints of the same in the lower portion of the large ridge in middle. I wonder what processes NASA imagines causes these.

That's what I thought they looked like myself.
Happy I am, not hallucinating (unlike certain other publicly funded bodies, it seems)

[tayga]

There clearly are raised Lichtenberg figures on the RHS of the image and hints of the same in the lower portion of the large ridge in middle. I wonder what processes NASA imagines causes these.

That's what I thought they looked like myself.
Happy I am, not hallucinating (unlike certain other publicly funded bodies, it seems)

I'd say this is one of those instances where preconceived ideas might cause selective blindness.

[dahlenaz]

Lava Coil Comparison

* These next two images are of another part of Cerberus Fossae, that show the polygons. The second image is a closeup from the first one.
http://www.psi.edu/sites/default/files/ ... /Thaw1.jpg
http://www.psi.edu/sites/default/files/ ... /Thaw1.jpg
http://www.psi.edu/sites/default/files/ ... /Thaw3.jpg

* One thing that's odd is that the polygons appear on the upper level, on the downward slopes, and somewhat on the lower levels. So how could that happen? Did the upper level melt and then start to harden, and then electric discharging scooped out some sections, with the scalloped sides, and remelted some of the downward slopes?

Lloyd,, you may find an answer to the polygon features in the images at this link:

http://para-az.com/eltricu-lbgrp/electro-lifting.html

These experiment results further demonstrated that material has been lifted from the surface of
mars in certain instances and the lifting mechanism was an electric field in close proximity, (with
minimal arcing involved).. These experiments from late 2012 enhansed confidence that craters
can also be made by a massive lifting of material. The signitures left behind are finger-like radial
spokes in craters and polygon features in the remnant material on the floor where the excavation
occurred.. These polygons can be seen forming, in a video at my youtube channel "dahlenaz07",
as a plasma ball is brought into close proximity with an electric field...

Once the material was lifted violently,, small arcs made their mark on the surface below
and a few large arcs made craters on the outbound side.. Material lifting is an arc-less
process because, when an arc forms forces are focused across a small area.



Larger image: http://para-az.com/eltricu-lbgrp/flybac ... 3235-c.jpg

These results were dismissed in favor of the constant arc-sculpting mechanism...

The image at the bottom of the page is a side by side with a TPOD pictue for arc-sculpting... d...z
http://para-az.com/eltricu-lbgrp/electro-lifting.html

...

[Max Photon]

Gentle readers,

I posted some photos on my website of dendritic ridges that self-organized after I undercut the slip face of a barchan sand dune.

Dendritic ridges self-organize on an undercut barchan dune slip face

Questions:

-- Do the dendritic ridges resemble those seen on Mars?

-- What are the similarities?

-- What are the differences?

-- Is there any chance this terrestrial mechanism is the same as the Martian mechanism?

Max

[starbiter]

Hi Max,

The mechanism may be similar. There is lot of blowing dust on Mars.

If the material on Mars with dendritic ridges is basalt it might imply a different mechanism. Something similar to welded tuff where the dust sticks to the windward side of obstructions because it's molten. If the blowing material was heavier than sand [gravel, rocks, or boulders] it might also stick to windward. Also if the material was wet, it would stick to windward. All of these options seem to produce dendritic ridges. Even sand dunes as You've shown.

Wal Thornhill does distinguish between different types of dendritic ridges. I photographed slag piles with ridges which Wal thought were different than those on Mars.

The images linked below show ridges that grow, as though they might be fluvial.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-GyNP5 ... dNU1E/edit

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-GyNP5 ... JOUFU/edit

I think the welded tuff ridges i see in the field are similar to martian ridges. But it's difficult to know the martian ridges very well, No road cuts. Your ridges don't have a fluvial look.

michael

[Max Photon]

Thanks Michael. (Btw, I believe under your avatar should read Antelope, CA. )

Hey, I was thinking about angle of repose, and it occurred to me that I didn't know whether angle of repose is gravity-dependent. (We must be careful with ours assumptions!)

It turns out that it was only in 2011 that it was discovered that angle of repose is gravity-dependent.

You'll probably enjoy this:


Static and dynamic angles of repose in loose granular materials under reduced gravity.
Journal of Geophysical Research 116.
Kleinhans, M. G.; Markies, H.; de Vet, S. J.; in 't Veld, A. C.; Postema, F. N. (2011).

Abstract

Granular materials avalanche when a static angle of repose is exceeded and freeze at a dynamic angle of repose. Such avalanches occur subaerially on steep hillslopes and wind dunes and subaqueously at the lee side of deltas. Until now it has been assumed that the angles of repose are independent of gravitational acceleration. The objective of this work is to experimentally determine whether the angles of repose depend on gravity. In 33 parabolic flights in a well-controlled research aircraft we recorded avalanching granular materials in rotating drums at effective gravitational accelerations of 0.1, 0.38 and 1.0 times the terrestrial value. The granular materials varied in particle size and rounding and had air or water as interstitial fluid. Materials with angular grains had time-averaged angles of about 40° and with rounded grains about 25° for all effective gravitational accelerations, except the finest glass beads in air, which was explained by static electricity. For all materials, the static angle of repose increases about 5° with reduced gravity, whereas the dynamic angle decreases with about 10°. Consequently, the avalanche size increases with reduced gravity. The experimental results suggest that relatively low slopes of granular material on Mars may have formed by dry flows without a lubricating fluid. On asteroids even lower slopes are expected. The dependence on gravity of angle of repose may require reanalysis of models for many phenomena involving sediment, also at much lower slope angles.

[Max Photon]

I am a bit surprised this thread does not have more participation, given that the Martian dendritic ridges are such an important bit of EU evidence.

Plus, there's money involved!

Solving the Mystery of Dendritic Ridges -- Innovative Experiment Prize


I don't know what you all think, but I think my photos of dendritic ridges formed on the undercut slip face of loose material are pretty darn compelling, and certainly ranks as a contender for the mechanism of Martian dendritic ridges.

Your mileage may vary.

[starbiter]

Hi Max,

The rules of the contest are for an electrical explanation of dendritic ridges. Your mechanical explanation would not qualify, the way i read the rules. Nor would a process similar to welded tuff deposition. Even if our explanations were correct.

michael

[Sparky]

Interesting images! Thank you....

[David Talbott]

Hi Max,

The rules of the contest are for an electrical explanation of dendritic ridges. Your mechanical explanation would not qualify, the way i read the rules. Nor would a process similar to welded tuff deposition. Even if our explanations were correct.

We do indeed have an explicit purpose of the Innovative Experiment Prize, Michael: to determine how far an experiment can go in producing dendritic ridge formation by electrical means. For the EU community as a whole, that is a crucial question. Since blowing and avalanching sand can produce substantial electric fields and both subtle and not-so-subtle electrostatic effects, it would be interesting to see someone explore that connection. Some questions of this sort may not be answered until the dynamics are investigated more closely.

The stated purpose of the Prize will certainly not preclude us from acknowledging the best "competitive explanations" offered for dendritic ridge formation, even if that's not the real purpose of the prize. It's been fascinating to us how difficult it is to stir broader interest in dendritic ridges. There has to be a powerful key in these formations, but the importance of the question doesn't easily register with folks. Note Max's own surprise at how little attention this thread has gotten.

Incidentally Michael, Wal was certainly correct that the images you provided him do not match the morphology of dendritic ridges on Mars. On the other hand, I'm quite impressed by Max's photos. Something very interesting to be explored there.