Mars - miscellaneous anomalies

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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starbiter
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Re: Recreating "Martian dendritic ridges" here on Earth?

Unread post by starbiter » Fri Nov 29, 2013 9:55 am

Some background.

http://money.msn.com/home-loans/news.as ... d=17143860

"Dig down anywhere in the dunes a few inches and you will find wet sand anytime of year. The source of this moisture content - 7% throughout the dunes - mostly comes from precipitation captured over time. The dry sand on top actually serves as a moderate barrier to escaping moisture. About 11 inches of precipitation falls on the dunes in an average year, while about 50 inches falls on the high peaks above the dunes, most of which flows down into the valley’s aquifer. At the base of the dunes, the water table can moisten the sand up to about three feet above the actual water level through capillary action, allowing wetlands to form higher than the water table."

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Max Photon
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Re: Recreating "Martian dendritic ridges" here on Earth?

Unread post by Max Photon » Fri Nov 29, 2013 10:24 am

starbiter wrote:A question Max. Do You think the dune You photographed was new, created during a recent windy storm? Or was it added to? If it was newly created it might have been dry all the way through, if the windy condition was completely dry. If only the top was new, or it rained during the storm, it might have been damp on the interior. That would add a new wrinkle. That would probably not be a factor on Mars, but who really knows?

michael
Michael, the photos were taken in December 2001 at Ocean Beach in San Francisco. (Latitude 38 degrees.)

Most winter lows (storms) pass to the north of the Bay Area, so the stormy part is usually felt from the SW.

After lows pass to the north, Ocean Beach gets very strong "clearing winds" from the NW -- clear, cold, and with sustained winds, say at 30 mph (50 km/hr), sometimes for two or three days.

My best recollection, along with my good familiarity with the locale, makes me pretty confident the dune formed dry and during one wind event.

But remember, this is right at the water's edge, and with the NW wind coming off of the water, the humidity is almost always relatively high.

So, while there may have been some moisture content in the slip face, to me -- to the naked eye -- the sand looked, felt and acted bone dry.
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Re: Recreating "Martian dendritic ridges" here on Earth?

Unread post by Sparky » Sat Nov 30, 2013 9:23 am

So maybe it's time to bust out that shoehorn!
I'll let those who are so very good at that to continue as they have been... ;)

I have no pigs in this race, so attempting to figure out these things is not productive for me, just an interest, if well presented. :?

Obvious water and wind errosion: http://i.imgur.com/iijT1Tq.jpg


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Re: Recreating "Martian dendritic ridges" here on Earth?

Unread post by Max Photon » Sat Nov 30, 2013 1:41 pm

Roger.

Nice photo. For some reason, it makes me hungry.
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Angles of repose in low g explain Mars, asteroid and comets?

Unread post by Max Photon » Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:47 am

Static and dynamic angles of repose in loose granular materials under reduced gravity

Kleinhans, M. G.; Markies, H.; de Vet, S. J.; in't Veld, A. C.; Postema, F. N.
Journal of Geophysical Research, Volume 116, Issue E11, CiteID E11004

Abstract
  • Granular materials avalanche when a static angle of repose is exceeded and freeze at a dynamic angle of repose.

    Such avalanches occur subaerially on steep hillslopes and wind dunes and subaqueously at the lee side of deltas.

    Until now it has been assumed that the angles of repose are independent of gravitational acceleration.

    The objective of this work is to experimentally determine whether the angles of repose depend on gravity.

    In 33 parabolic flights in a well-controlled research aircraft we recorded avalanching granular materials in rotating drums at effective gravitational accelerations of 0.1, 0.38 and 1.0 times the terrestrial value.

    The granular materials varied in particle size and rounding and had air or water as interstitial fluid.

    Materials with angular grains had time-averaged angles of about 40° and with rounded grains about 25° for all effective gravitational accelerations, except the finest glass beads in air, which was explained by static electricity.

    For all materials, the static angle of repose increases about 5° with reduced gravity, whereas the dynamic angle decreases with about 10°.

    Consequently, the avalanche size increases with reduced gravity.

    The experimental results suggest that relatively low slopes of granular material on Mars may have formed by dry flows without a lubricating fluid.

    On asteroids [and comets] even lower slopes are expected.

    The dependence on gravity of angle of repose may require reanalysis of models for many phenomena involving sediment, also at much lower slope angles.
* * * * *

Gentle readers, are these findings not critically important to the EU community?

Do these findings not go a long way to explaining the terrains found on, for example, Mars, asteroids and comets?

Perhaps it would be prudent to exhaust basics like angles of repose and mass wasting (including mass wasting after some disruptive event), before invoking more exotic solutions.
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Re: Angles of repose in low g explain Mars, asteroid and com

Unread post by Sparky » Wed Dec 04, 2013 8:23 am

Do these findings not go a long way to explaining the terrains found on, for example, Mars, asteroids and comets?
Max, these details pummel my brain.... :?

To answer your question: No. :?

Check out today's TPOD, http://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2013/12 ... monoliths/ , STONE Monoliths... :?

Investigation of terrain has to be kept in context...yep, even low g... :?

:D
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Re: Angles of repose in low g explain Mars, asteroid and com

Unread post by Max Photon » Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:07 am

Indeed. And the context is that angles of repose are gravity-dependent.

Feel free to ignore that reality.


I think it is important.
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Re: Angles of repose in low g explain Mars, asteroid and com

Unread post by Sparky » Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:34 am

And the context is that angles of repose are gravity-dependent.
I agree that "context" contains consideration of gravity-dependent repose, but the context of this thread is that repose is gravity-dependent. But....
Do these findings not go a long way to explaining the terrains found on, for example, Mars, asteroids and comets?
NO.

Depending on object, maybe very little. :D
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Angles of repose I suppose

Unread post by Max Photon » Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:30 pm

Sparky, you've lost me.

Let's start simply...

Do the concepts of static and dynamic angles of repose not go a long way* in explaining terrain found, say, on Earth?

Surely mass wasting did not cease when EU ideas appeared.


* Note that I did not use the word "completely."
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Sharp relief on Comet Tempel 1 was a surprise to the STD mod

Unread post by Max Photon » Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:40 pm

The sharp relief on Comet Tempel 1 was a surprise to those holding the standard model of comets.

The sharp relief was not a surprise to EU supporters.


But both factions were unaware at the time of the relationship between angles of repose and g.


Sharper relief is to be expected for loose granular material in reduced g because the static angle of repose increases, and the dynamic angle of repose decreases.

Wiggle as you might, this new finding is a contender for explaining the surprisingly sharp relief.


Occam's Razor is independent of g. :mrgreen:
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Dendritic ridges on a beach berm

Unread post by Max Photon » Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:09 pm

Another photographer captured some nice dendritic ridges on a sand berm.

(Go to row 9, right hand side.)
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Re: Recreating "Martian dendritic ridges" here on Earth?

Unread post by Sparky » Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:57 am

"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire

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Re: Recreating "Martian dendritic ridges" here on Earth?

Unread post by Max Photon » Fri Dec 06, 2013 6:40 am

Sparky, if you go to Wikipedia > Logical Fallacies, and read on a bit, you'll find that a significant number of them fall under the category of non sequitur.

Your photos have been non sequiturs.
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Re: Angles of repose in low g explain Mars, asteroid and com

Unread post by Max Photon » Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:01 am

I'm lost.

That angles of repose are dependent on g is an extremely important finding, yes?

Yet this thread has only garnered one comment, and that was to say NO!


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Re: Dendritic ridges on a beach berm

Unread post by dahlenaz » Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:18 am

Max Photon wrote:Another photographer captured some nice dendritic ridges on a sand berm.

(Go to row 9, right hand side.)
These rilles look to be facing the water action, are they getting regular and momentary
contact from the water?

If so the pattern fits into obesrvations made during experiments which produced
"tail-flow dendritics" a mechanism that seems to be all about the way material
is detached from its parent,, and this same process was seen in electro-mass lifting..
I would suspect that other forces such as wind, gravity and coronal discharges
must contend with or abide by the limits which resist the detachment or separation
of material from its parent structure..
This can be easily demonstrated at the nozzel of a vacuum cleaner,, and it is
seen at coronal discharges locations. And there you will find hanging-dendritics. d...z

...

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