Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby allynh » Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:24 pm

Lloyd,

I can never remember if it was 5000 years ago, or 5000 BC. I blame any mistakes I'm making on the fact that I'm literally listening to Carmina Burana looping over and over and over... Yikes!

The White Sands
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Sand ... hite_Sands

This constant movement still occurs today, and with the added alkaline and the little amount of rainfall makes it difficult for plants to grow here leaving the desert desolate as it appears today.


Remember, Titan has an atmosphere; and don't think in terms of sound as the source of vibration. Think instead of the fact that the material is in a dusty plasma state, so electrical and magnetic vibrations would rule.

Now back to Carmina Burana - Daaa dada daa, da da da da,....

Wait, before I go... I've been meaning to get the Catastrophism Archive CD-ROM

Contains a complete searchable library of the most important catastrophist publications over the past quarter century, including Pensee, Kronos, SIS Review, SIS Workshop, and The Velikovskian, plus numerous website articles and other resources. An essential library for newcomers to catastrophism, but equally valuable for long-time enthusiasts and advanced researchers


Does anyone have the disc. Is it searchable. What are the files stored as, PDF, HTML, etc..., and can I listen to Carmina Burana as I work with it.
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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby Kapriel » Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:06 am

I raised the question of carbonate layers in hopes a solution might be found by brainstorming as a group. Thoroughly delving into the details cannot hurt a good theory, it can only help it. There is no insult intended to any private party. Only the honest spirit of inquiry. That is the purpose of this forum, after all.

I don't think anyone doubts the possibility that Velikovsky's theories will hold water concerning the oceans having over flowed their banks. However, it occurs to me that "periodically" sloshing sea water hasn't been shown to be able to form the characteristic dune shape you refer to in your formations. Previously formed dunes (wind-formed and electrically fused) would have been triangular, and between those would be the level, or horizontally laid down, carbonate deposits left over if an ocean of water had repeatedly been splashed onto the dune field.

There is an alternative however that might work: it's possible that sloshing seas were captured into new lakes and inland seas. In this case the newly-arrived salty water would have taken on the continuously tidal activity of lakes and estuaries. Tidal activity is known to form dunes in bodies of water such as these. But then again we run into the trouble of matching the new dunes to the old dunes. The new ones would be different, wouldn't they? Smaller, larger, whatever. That difference would be obvious.

So we need to uncover a process that would have made instant precipitation of carbonate minerals out of sea water possible. This would have enabled the layering and lithification without the usual time needed to precipitate carbonate from sea water. Usually this is a chemical process that takes years to accumulate. If we're envisioning planetary drive-by-dumpings of particulate matter, why stop with red sand? Why not assume other materials arrived as well, which were then transmuted or chemically altered rapidly to form carbonate?
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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby allynh » Fri Jan 01, 2010 8:51 am

More about vibration of sound and plasma. When you look at the sonic models of vibration on youtube, with the sand vibrating on a plate, remember that electricity works the same way as sound. It is just easier to see the sand on the plate. It is all about energy passing through a fluid, and that energy creating a vibration in the fluid, and that vibration having a frequency as it moves through that fluid.

There is no difference in how this whistle works
800px-Pea_Whistle.jpg

and how this magnetron works.
mag02.gif

They both work by the same principle. In fact the radar magnetron was developed because they understood how whistles work.

Cavity magnetron
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavity_magnetron

Whistle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistle

Magnetron
http://www.radartutorial.eu/08.transmit ... 08.en.html

The interference patterns you see in the cornstarch

Cornstarch at 35-55hz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCk9-blM5Xg

are the same as you would see if the fluid was water, or light, or plasma. There is no difference.

BTW, I'm coming down from my Carmina Burana high by listening to Tainted 80's. I'm much better now.
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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby mharratsc » Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:17 pm

Consider also the physical characteristics of the dunes of Antarctica. It seems highly unlikely to me that those particular dunes were shaped by liquid water... AND they are solid as rock now. They have more in common with those 'hardened' dune sites (like in Australia) than they do with the dunes formed by wind action.

Sorry to butt in- I really haven't the training for it. I just thought it would be pertinent to mention the ripples across Antarctica since no one else had so far. Even though those 'dunes' down there should be nothing but blown snow, they are huge by Earth's standards, and supposedly as solid as the ice sheet!

Last but not least- they are deposited ice and snow.. not likely they were deposited by the Antarctic Ocean flowing over the continent, and last I checked- for the particles to have fused like that would require some energy to get it all to stick together... o.O

Not sure how that all works into this, but... there it is! :)


Mike H.
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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby Lloyd » Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:51 pm

* I hope the following info on Electrical Deposition from Wikipedia may be helpful.
Electrophoretic deposition (EPD), is a term for a broad range of industrial processes which includes electrocoating, e-coating, cathodic electrodeposition, and electrophoretic coating, or electrophoretic painting. A characteristic feature of this process is that colloidal particles suspended in a liquid medium migrate under the influence of an electric field (electrophoresis) and are deposited onto an electrode. All colloidal particles that can be used to form stable suspensions and that can carry a charge can be used in electrophoretic deposition. This includes materials such as polymers, pigments, dyes, ceramics and metals. --- The process is useful for applying materials to any electrically conductive surface.
--- The coating process itself ... normally involves submerging the part into a container or vessel which holds the coating bath or solution and applying direct current electricity through the EPD bath using electrodes. Typically voltages of 25 - 400 volts DC are used in electocoating or electrophoretic painting applications. The object to be coated is one of the electrodes, and a set of "counter-electrodes" are used to complete the circuit. --- A baking or curing process is normally used following the rinse. This will crosslink the polymer and allows the coating, which will be porous due to the evolution of gas during the deposition process, to flow out and become smooth and continuous.
--- The primary electrochemical process which occurs during aqueous electrodeposition is the electrolysis of water. This can be shown by the following two half reactions which occur at the two electrodes:

Anode: 2H2O ---> O2(gas) + 4H(+) + 4e(-)
Cathode: 4H2O + 4e(-) ---> 4OH(-) + 2H2(gas)

In anodic deposition, the material being deposited will have salts of an acid as the charge bearing group. These negatively charged anions react with the positively charged hydrogen ions (protons) which are being produced at the anode by the electrolysis of water to reform the original acid. The fully protonated acid carries no charge (charge destruction) and is less soluble in water, and may precipitate out of the water onto the anode.
--- Non-aqueous electrophoretic deposition
In certain applications, such as the deposition of ceramic materials, voltages above 3-4V cannot be applied in aqueous EPD if it is necessary to avoid the electrolysis of water. However, higher application voltages may be desirable in order to achieve higher coating thicknesses or to increase the rate of deposition. In such applications, organic solvents are used instead of water as the liquid medium. The organic solvents used are generally polar solvents such as alcohols and ketones. Ethanol, acetone, and methyl ethyl ketone are examples of solvents which have been reported as suitable candidates for use in electrophoretic deposition.

* So an atmosphere containing methane might help electrical deposition.
* There are 3 kinds of sedimentary rock: sandstone, limestone and shale, each of which can be metamorphized. Metals tend to be electrically conductive, I think, so any rock containing metals should be fairly conductive. Clay contains aluminum and it forms shale and slate [metamorphic shale]. Aluminum is in granite and basalt etc. Sand can contain metals, but quartz alone, i.e. SiO2, has no metal, but some metals, like gold, are found in quartz veins. Limestone is mainly calcite, i.e. calcium carbonate, so I don't know that it's conductive, but it can contain impurities or be mixed with shale or sandstone.
Kapriel said: The presence of carbonate layers between sandstone "dunes' needs to be addressed

* What source are you referring to regarding carbonate between dunes? Is that calcium carbonate? Do you know what the usual thickness of the carbonate layer is?
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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby Lloyd » Fri Jan 01, 2010 2:10 pm

I did a Google search for "carbonate * sand dunes" and got these results, that may be helpful.
* 1. The Miocene Clastics Formation is overlain in some areas by carbonate-cemented sand dunes of Pleistocene age. http://bulletin.geoscienceworld.org/cgi/content/full/114/3/259
* 2. The morphology of barchan-shaped sand banks from western Torres ... --- Keene and Harris (1995) presented results from C14 analysis of carbonate cements within subaqueous sand dunes elsewhere in the Torres Strait indicating ... http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0037073807002035
* 3. OSL dating of the Aterian levels at Dar es-Soltan I --- First, a body of carbonate-rich sand dunes was formed. This material was then lithified to form aeolianite. Dune sand is often affected by water http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0277379109001164 Show more results from http://linkinghub.elsevier.com
* 4. CHAPTER FOUR: REGIONAL ASPECTS OF DOLOMITE FORMATION --- Leaching of carbonate from aeolian sand dunes was thought to have been the main source for the neoformation of the modern carbonates. http://www.jcdeelman.demon.nl/dolomite/files/10_Chapter4.pdf
* 5. NOAA Ocean Explorer: Bermuda: Search for Deep Water Caves 2009 ... --- Dec 1, 2009 ... resulted in the deposition of a series of limestone layers predominantly composed of carbonate eolianites (i.e., remnant sand dunes ... http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/explorations/09bermuda/background/bermudaorigin/bermudaorigin.html
* 9. ALGAE OF DEATH VALLEY Published studies of desert algae --- ... varying composition from chloride to sulfate and carbonate. Low sand dunes in many places border the salt flats. http://www.jstor.org/stable/3224050
* 10. Bermuda past and present --- Then the winds took up the task, drifting these broken shells, whose substance was carbonate of lime, into sand dunes, which ... grew in height http://www.archive.org/stream/bermudapastandp00haywgoog/bermudapastandp00haywgoog_djvu.txt

* I think it's very interesting in #2 that carbonates in rock strata can be C-14 dated. I wonder where one would look for data on any strata that have been so dated.
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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby starbiter » Fri Jan 01, 2010 11:45 pm

Hello Kapriel: Sorry if i was snippy. Just thought i gave an explanation for Limestone that you failed to recognize. The ocean bottom was dumped on the mountain tops, i think. With the skeletons and shells. In the case of the Grand Canyon mountain it's 300 feet of Limestone at the top of the mountain. If it was a slow process of sedimentation underwater it would require an 8000 foot mountain to be submerged for an extended period of time. That's a big flood. Because it's the top layer it must have been deposited after the duning was complete. All of the dunes are under the Limestone. I don't think there would be time for 300 feet of slow sedimentation, with skeletons in the EU scenario.

This addition of a Limestone layer would cause the opposite of a dune. No slip face. No ridge line. It would fill in the area between the ridges and smooth the area, not form a dune. Wet sediment caused by a wave or underwater sedimentation would be controlled by gravity, not the wind. I think that's why the Grand Canyon mountain has a muted ridge line.

Anything falling in between the mountains would land in the water and be homogenized. It's late. I hope this makes a little sense. I'm not sure.


I've been on the road to Phoenix. Will try to catch up soon.

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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby starbiter » Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:17 pm

Hola Lloyd: If i understand what your saying, If Ya got a dune and dump salty ocean water on it with shells and the skeletons of little critters you might wind up with LIMESTONE. This has been my model for a while. I believe it's the exterior at the top of the Grand Canyon that has most of the Fossils.
michael

http://www.nps.gov/cany/planyourvisit/u ... eology.pdf These are the layers in Canyonlands. The Dinosaur tracks open a can of worms. When i get settled i'll supply more info and photos. The bottom line is that the very top of the dunes have three toed carnivore dino tracks.
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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby webolife » Sat Jan 02, 2010 2:09 pm

I have personally dug into and/or found exposed edges of active dune sites in southern Utah, Coral Pink Sand Dunes for one, where the underlying dune strata were so compacted and hardened that they shattered into hard quartzite-like shards when hit very hard by a hammer. Carbonate material mixed even in small amounts with silicate sand (a typical mixture) can become a good cement with the regular addition of carbolic acid from rainwater... lime-rich seawater might work even better of course, but I was hammering on the understrata of currently active wind-deposited dunes. At White Sands in New Mexico, I found that where you could find understrata exposed, they were still fairly unconsolidated... barite "rose" crystals are commonly found in that sandy matrix however.
Last edited by webolife on Sat Jan 02, 2010 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby seasmith » Sat Jan 02, 2010 2:10 pm

Lloyd quoted:
2. The morphology of barchan-shaped sand banks from western Torres ... --- Keene and Harris (1995) presented results from C14 analysis of carbonate cements within subaqueous sand dunes elsewhere in the Torres Strait indicating ... http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve ... 3807002035
* 3. OSL dating of the Aterian levels at Dar es-Soltan I --- First, a body of carbonate-rich sand dunes was formed. This material was then lithified to form aeolianite. Dune sand is often affected by water http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve ... 9109001164 Show more results from http://linkinghub.elsevier.com




Hi Lloyd,

I guess, like me, you weren't ready to spring for $30+ per article to see the rest of the story and see the results of the dating analysis, but looking at similar links-

Abstract

The Aterian is a distinctive Middle Palaeolithic industry which is very widely spread across North Africa. Its dating and significance have been debated for nearly a century. Renewed interest in the Aterian has arisen because of a recent proposal that its development and spread may be linked to the dispersal of anatomically modern humans. The industry contains technological innovations such as thin bifacially flaked lithic points and pedunculates as well as evidence for personal ornaments and use of red ochre. Such markers as shell beads are believed to be indicative of symbolic behaviour. Dar es-Soltan I on the Atlantic coast of Morocco contains a thick sequence of Aterian deposits that were thought to represent the later stages of development of this industry. New Optically Stimulated Luminescence dates and geomorphological study indicate a much older sequence and so far the earliest yet recorded ages for the Aterian. They suggest an appearance in the Maghreb region during MIS (Marine Isotope Stage) 5.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VBC-4W73H81-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=326b95dc2bc3ef8ce3c74d39de48ab4a
The Middle Paleolithic (or Middle Palaeolithic) is the second subdivision of the Paleolithic or Old Stone Age as it is understood in Europe, Africa and Asia. The term Middle Stone Age is used as an equivalent or a synonym for the Middle Paleolithic in African archeology.[1] The Middle Paleolithic and the Middle Stone Age broadly spanned from 300,000 to 30,000 years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Palaeolithic

I only bring this up because a couple days ago on the History Channel [semi-science] there was a new episode on the Sahara which showed the deep-Earth' satellite images, core samples work and archeo digs/etc; finally ending with the conclusion that that the whole north end of the continent has for hundreds of thousands of years undergone flooding and drought cycles flipping every 20,000 years.

~They repeatedly mentioned "wobble of the Earth's axis", never Precession, but think they were saying that after 20,000 years of wet, there would follow about 6000 years of dry, over and over in the past.

s
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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby webolife » Sat Jan 02, 2010 2:24 pm

In the case of core samples, these are primarily interpreted according to uniformitarian deposition assumptions, eg. so many inches per century, etc. In regard to this, a "wet" stratum, being found fairly pervasively throughout a sampling area, would indicate a period of "sloshing" that may not be tied to millenia of time at all, but rather to "tidal" or tsunami-type action during a relatively rapidly occuring global event. A period of "drying" would be associated with wind depositional effects in the time between "sloshes". It is difficult for some of us non-Saharans to envision the fact that even at the present "slow" time, hundreds [even thousands] of square miles of central Africa are lost each year to dune migration.
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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby starbiter » Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:43 pm

Just a point about The Great Sand Dune National Monument.. The folks there claim it's sand all the way to the bottom. No rock. I guess i'll have to trust them on this. The point is that sand can stay granular even if wet under the right or wrong conditions.
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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby Lloyd » Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:52 pm

* I was just looking for geologic cross-sections for White Sands, which I couldn't readily find, so I tried just New Mexico, and I found this one for the San Juan and Zuni Basins: http://ior.senergyltd.com/issue11/research-development/universities/imperial-college/outcrop. I haven't seen a lot of geologic cross-sections, but I've never seen one like that before. It shows like a mountain or canyon with marine shales on the right and non-marine strata on the left, within one mountain or canyon bank, with a zig-zag boundary between them consisting mostly of a thin layer of shore-zone sandstones. Oh, wait. I see it's small enough to post, so here it is:
Image
* The image caption says:
Figure1: Schematic chronostratigraphic cross section showing Upper Cretaceous rocks across the San Juan basin, New Mexico, USA. Transgressive sandstones are highlighted. The Hosta Sandstone was studied extensively in phase 1 of our work. Phase 2 will focus on quantitative comparative analysis of the Hosta Sandstone with other transgressive sandstone units.

* Would anyone like to suggest how these strata were deposited? I haven't read much of the webpage and don't have time.
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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby Kapriel » Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:24 pm

Oi! I've got some catching up to do here. Some great links to check out.
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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby allynh » Sun Jan 03, 2010 11:08 am

seasmith wrote:I only bring this up because a couple days ago on the History Channel [semi-science] there was a new episode on the Sahara which showed the deep-Earth' satellite images, core samples work and archeo digs/etc; finally ending with the conclusion that that the whole north end of the continent has for hundreds of thousands of years undergone flooding and drought cycles flipping every 20,000 years.


This is from an older post about the PBS Newshour and National Geographic about the Green Sahara.

Scientists Find Stone Age Burial Ground From Once-green Sahara
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/science/ ... 08-14.html

Lost Tribes of the Green Sahara
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/ ... /gwin-text

and the text version of the article
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/print ... /gwin-text

Basically at 10k and 6k years ago the Sahara was alternately wet then dry, with lakes providing tuna size fish.
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