Electric discharges to dusty CRT match planetary features

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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Re: Electric discharges to dusty CRT match planetary features

Unread postby StefanR » Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:43 am

I believe brewers and winemakers use additives like sulfur.
But if you want to experiment maybe a mineral-shop can be helpful too. One only has to grind the samples.
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Re: Electric discharges to dusty CRT match planetary features

Unread postby dahlenaz » Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:25 am

Thanks redeye, This was good information.




The search path did yeild some options that will provide both compounds. Getting a grasp of how to apply them in an informative experiment is the next step. I'll venture down that path cautiously. d...z

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Re: Electric discharges to dusty CRT match planetary features

Unread postby StefanR » Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:33 am

You can buy meteorites here :shock: (little pricy of course ;) )
Lot's of links to all kinds of minerals and stuff like that.
http://www.rockhounds.com/rockshop/classifieds/classifieds.shtml#mtloff
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Re: Electric discharges to dusty CRT match planetary features

Unread postby dahlenaz » Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:35 am

Due to a difficulty getting through written material, I need to ask someone to
help me sort out what may be odd questions.

When double layers are talked about in reference to electrostatics, i
get the impression that a double layer should exist above the surface of
Mercury. I also get the impression that a double layer can be thought of in
the same terms as a capacitor with the potential to break-down and allow
discharge across the DL.
If any of these impressions are accurate, is the location of a double
layer something that can be estimated based on atmospheric conditions, or
lack of, or is the bodies composition, nucleus, the only planetary factor in forming a
DL?
Will a surface-charge from solar bombardment produce a double layer which
could breakdown periodically and produce surface features? Could Mercury
have a low level double layer since it doesn't have much atmosphere or
planetary field?

In consideration of my limited knowledge and without clarity on some physics considerations,
I'll probably be limiting the poster presentation to an image comparrison. d..z

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Re: Electric discharges to dusty CRT match planetary features

Unread postby StefanR » Mon Mar 31, 2008 5:28 pm

I'm not sure if I can answer your question but maybe these posts from the Holmes-thread can provide some information:

Static Satellites

Resistivity
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Re: Electric discharges to dusty CRT match planetary features

Unread postby dahlenaz » Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:01 pm

Thanks Stefan,

The info is going to take some time to sort through. Do you understand most of that material. If so, give me your best guess or impression.
I'd sure like to hear from the big guys too but my hopes of that are fading. I'm beginning to think that submitting the abstract was a mistake. Without technical support it might as well be a blank poster. d...z
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Re: Electric discharges to dusty CRT match planetary features

Unread postby StefanR » Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:39 am

Do you understand most of that material. If so, give me your best guess or impression.

Not sure, what you mean exactly. You want my impression on your questions or about the relation between the links and your questions?

I'd sure like to hear from the big guys too but my hopes of that are fading. I'm beginning to think that submitting the abstract was a mistake. Without technical support it might as well be a blank poster.

Who are the big guys?
Don't loose convidence now, I think there is still some time to work on your questions.
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Re: Electric discharges to dusty CRT match planetary features

Unread postby StefanR » Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:46 am

Of course some info could be found to with the search of the Tunderbolts site:
http://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&q=%22double+layer%22+site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.thunderbolts.info&btnG=Google+zoeken&meta=
or the holoscience site:
http://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&q=%22double+layer%22+site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.holoscience.com&btnG=Zoeken&meta=

Maybe there are others too, who can skim those links for relevant information.

Also some info could be had from the "Cosmical electrodynamics" of Alfven maybe.

"3.11 Survey of electric discharges

Electric discharges are usually divided into two groupes: non-sustained discharges, which are dependent upon an 'external' ionizer producing at least an essential part of the ions and electrons which carry the current, and self-sustained discharges, where the ionisation is mainly produced by the discharge itself. Ceteris paribus the second is chracterized by higher current densities than the first. This is due to the fact that in the laboratory we have at our disposal only very weak ionizers. In cosmic physics, where the 'external ionizer' may be a high temperature which ionizes the matter more or less completely, non-sustained discharges may carry verry large currents.
The domain of the self-sustained discharges is very extensive, including Townsend discharges, glow discharges, and arcs. Moreover, there are several special forms such as the spark, which is essentially a short-lived arc. In most of the discharges we can discern three different regions:

1. The cathode region, where the electrons (which carry the main part of the current) are produced by emission from the cathode and by ionization of the gas.
2. The anode region ( which is rather unimportant), associated with the passing of the curenet between the discharge and the anode.
3. The 'plasma' which extends from the region of the cathode mechanism to that of the anode mechanism. The properties of the plasma can be regarded as characteristic for a gaseous conductor in the absence of disturbances from electrodes.

The distinction between the different types of discharges lies mainly in the cathode mechanism. In the Townsend and the glow discharge the emission takes place from a cold cathode; in the arc the cathode is hot enough to give thermionic emission (or it emits abundantly for some reason).
The properties of the plasma are not immediately connected with the cathode mechanism, so in principle the plasma could have the same properties for all types of self-sustained, and even for non-sustained, discharges. The state of the plasma depends upon the current density, and this is usually increasing when we go from non-sustained to Townsend and further to glow and to arc discharges. Although in principle the same phenomena occur in all plasmas, the properties of an arc plasma are, because of the high current density, different from that of a glow-discharge, and still more different from that of a non-sustained discharge.
In cosmic physics the cold cathode mechanisms are of little interest. If we can speak of electrodes these usually consist of ionized gaseous layers of higher density that the discharge space. Such layers can give off electrons abundantly, so that the cathode mechanism is most similar to that of an arc discharge
"
from page 38/39 of Cosmical Electrodynamics-Alfven

I also think that in relation to the static satellites and the DL-breakdown and the Spiders, I found the information in the Cosmical Electrodynamics book concerning the "skin-effect" very much applicable.
Maybe somebody else on this Forum has an .pdf or .txt form of the book of Alfven? It would make quoting a lot easier.
Just a small bit:

From page 66/67/68:
"We have found that the magnetic field of the current causes a concetration of the discharge to the symmetry line. The problem is, however, more complicated than this, because the electric field and the current magnetic field produce together a drift of charged particles. This drift is directed towards the axis and causes a continuous increase in charged particle density near the axis until compensating effects occur. The most important of these is the outward diffusion due to the density gradient (*) , which according to 3.25 causes a current (*) in the radial direction and a Hall current in the z-direction, which according to 3.12 is (*) times the radial current.
.........
The result is that the current density is almost constant near the axis but decreases as r^-3 for large values of r.
.........
This stationary state is probably never attained in cosmic physics. The reason for this can be understood from the following discussion.
Consider a cilinder (axis coinciding with the z-axis, surface given by r=r0) consisting of a solid conductor. If an alternating electric field is applied in the z-direction, the current is confined to a thin layer at the surface because of the "skin effect".
In fact, the current penetrates to a depth (*) of the order of
(*)
where (*) is the frequency of the electric field, (*) the conductivity , and (*) the velocity of light. If instead a constant field is suddenly applied, the current starts at the surface but at the first moment no current flows in the interior of the conductor. The current-carrying layer gradually increases, so that after the time (*) it has a thickness of the order
(*).
............
Consequently in a solid conductor of cosmic dimensions an applied electric field cannot cause a current within a reasonable time except in a very thin surface layer. As in high-frequency technics, it is easier to produce a current in a dielectric than in the interior of a conductor.
If we pass from a solid conductor to the ionized gas, the "skin effect" changes character. Suppose that a gas is ionized only within a cilider limited by surface r=r0 and two circular electrodes (*). When an electric field Ez is sudenly applied between the electrodes, current starts at the surface of the cilinder. Due to the attraction between parallel currents, a force is produced directed towards the axis. The gas begins to stream inward with the velocity with the velocity v. An induced field (*) is produced which reduces the applied field. The result is probably that current flows only near the z-axis.
The 'inverse skin effect' has never been studied but may be very important in cosmic physics.


I could go on, but maybe someone can has the text in electronic form, that would make it a lot easier than transcribing it all, also as I'm not able to place the equations here.

Also in relation to Mercury the huge carbon/organic athmosphere/tail has big implications on the dielectric properties. As is also the case with Mars. The formation of watervapor-clouds as could be seen in the Arsia Mons information posted earlier is a sign of changing dielectricity. The watervapor can be the cause of the change but it could also be seen as an effect from interaction with the outer athmospheric layers (as can be deduced from the Sprites-thread, and also what is known by the cloudforming capabillities of the cosmic rays brought forth by climate research).
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Re: Electric discharges to dusty CRT match planetary features

Unread postby StefanR » Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:01 am

Some bits from the links I gave :

Quote:
Therefore, it is highly desirable to have a thin coating with low thermophysical properties for heat control and low surface resistance for electrostatic discharge control. It is especially desirable for such a coating to be flexible and adhere to surfaces.
Quote:
Currently, the preferred method for producing and applying a very thin (t<2000 Angstroms) coating on membrane or rigid structural surfaces is through sputtering deposition. Sputter deposition, or sputtering, refers to the process of bombarding a solid (referred to as the target) with high energy ions from a plasma


Surface resistivity is defined as the ratio of the dc voltage drop per unit length to the surface current per unit width for electric current flowing across a surface.1 In effect, the surface resistivity is the resistance between two opposite sides of a square. It is independent of the size of the square (as long as the size is much greater than the film thickness) or its dimensional units. Surface resistivity is expressed in ohms per square (Ω/sq) and is traditionally used to evaluate insulative materials for electrical applications.

Surface resistance
is defined as the ratio of dc voltage to the current flowing between two electrodes of a specified configuration that contact the same side of a material. This measurement is also expressed in ohms.2 It is applicable to materials regardless of construction.


The electrostatic charging of spacecraft surfaces is the result of the spacecraft attempting to achieve a balance of currents to surfaces corresponding to an equilibrium state:

Ie+Ii+Ise+Ib+ Iph+IR=0

Here, Ie and Ii are currents of ambient electrons and ions, Ise and Ib are the secondary currents emitted by the surface as a result (secondary emission (SE), backscatter and ion-induced SE), Iph is the photoemission current and IR the bulk currents to the surface. These currents are obviously functions of the environment which is complex but can often be simplified for analysis to a Maxwellian or double-Maxwellian distribution. During geomagnetic substorms, hot plasma (10-30 keV) is introduced at geostationary orbit. The currents also depend on surface potentials and electric fields on and around the spacecraft and on the many material properties which are not always well-behaved. In the simple case where we only consider the ambient terms, Ie + Ii = 0 a surface floats at 2 to 3 times the electron temperature (in Volts). This results from the higher current of more mobile electrons, requiring a high negative surface charge to repel them. However, the modifying factors can be very important in space.

The important material properties are:

Dielectric thickness;
Dielectric constant;
Dielectric resistivity - this is not generally a constant in space but is illumination, temperature, radiation and field-dependent;
Surface resistivity;
Secondary electron emission yield as a function of incident electron or ion energy;
Photoemission current (from solar illumination).


Ideally, the insulating material should be totally non-conductive i.e. the resistivity should be infinity. However, materials employed in practice do carry a certain, usually very weak current (leakage current) when a direct voltage is applied. Thus the resistivity of electrical insulating material is finite, although of extremely high value. The higher is the resistivity of the material, the better is its quality.

The leakage current passing through the insulated portion at a stable process of conduction i.e. a sufficiently long time after a direct voltage is applied, is also constant and is known as residual current.

The total current passing through the insulation may be considered as consisting of two components of current - one which flow through the volume of insulation Iv, and the other passing over the surface of insulation Is. Unlike conduction current in metals, this component currents through volume and surface, in case of insulating materials has special significance. Hence the resistance is looked upon differently corresponding to volume and surface leakage current. Resistance which is obtained by the ratio of applied voltage V to volume leakage current Iv is known as volume resistance and that due to surface leakage current Is is known as surface resistance. The volume and surface resistance as obtained are dependent on the electrode geometry and physical dimension of the insulating material under test. Hence to define the basic insulation properties, the following two quantities are used - (i) Volume Resistivity (ii) Surface resistivity.
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Re: Electric discharges to dusty CRT match planetary features

Unread postby dahlenaz » Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:06 am

StefanR wrote:Not sure, what you mean exactly. You want my impression on your questions or about the relation between the links and your questions?


The relation between, the application of that info to the surface of a planet that is on the doorstep of a sun. If you have the technical understanding to sort through any of that material you're several steps up on me.

Who are the big guys?



Generally, any of the electrical engineers or plasma physicists who have been a part of the thunderbolts project for long enough to have laid some foundational details and especially those who recommended that i present my findings in support of their perspective. The current newcomers and contributors to this thread are in an admired class of their own!

Don't loose confidence now, I think there is still some time to work on your questions.


Oh, i probably lost that ten months ago, I've just been hanging on by blind hope. d...z
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Re: Electric discharges to dusty CRT match planetary features

Unread postby StefanR » Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:41 am

Oh, i probably lost that ten months ago, I've just been hanging on by blind hope.

That is really pity and sad to hear. :oops: :cry:

Generally, any of the electrical engineers or plasma physicists who have been a part of the thunderbolts project for long enough to have laid some foundational details and especially those who recommended that i present my findings in support of their perspective.

Is it really not possible to pull some strings here, guys/girls!?
I understand people are very busy, but DZ is almost the only one bringing some applied experimental stuff here and is even
willing to stick his neck out on a conference. It would be really nice to give some help here, especially those who know about the activities at such an conference and the presentations placed there. :shock:

The relation between, the application of that info to the surface of a planet that is on the doorstep of a sun.

Of course a lot of info will still come from the Messenger probe, but some info should be around concerning your questions.
Are the questions you stated purely in relation to Mercury?
It seems tempting to also use info about comets and dusty plasma, but not sure in what way that would be allowed.

Do the posts above with the quotes help in anyway? And what information do you think is lacking in depth or maybe lacking completely?
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Re: Electric discharges to dusty CRT match planetary features

Unread postby dahlenaz » Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:05 am

d...z wrote: The relation between, the application of that info to the surface of a planet that is on the doorstep of a sun.

StefanR wrote: Of course a lot of info will still come from the Messenger probe, but some info should be around concerning your questions.
Are the questions you stated purely in relation to Mercury?


I'd be inclined to include our moon since it too has little protection from the solar current. It gets a break though. Mercury does not.

It seems tempting to also use info about comets and dusty plasma, but not sure in what way that would be allowed.


There should be some comparable details since they are all moving within the solar current. Type of orbit seems more a factor than size, if my impression is correct. Level of atmospheric or magnetosperic protection seems relevant. How to apply double layer theory is a key point roling around in my imagination.

Do the posts above with the quotes help in anyway? And what information do you think is lacking in depth or maybe lacking completely?


Yes and probably more than I can recognize. What is lacking is my ability to ask informed questions or get through the mountains of material. This is way i've been trying to pass this off to someone who can take it to the next level, if there is one. d...z
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Re: Electric discharges to dusty CRT match planetary features

Unread postby StefanR » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:14 pm

Inverted Dendritic Stream Channels in Antoniadi Crater
Image
Most of the flat parts of the image have a polygonal texture, which commonly forms when mud dries. In the center of the image are branched (“dendritic”) features that connect southward to a larger trunk-shaped landform; the branches resemble stream channels on Earth. Unlike active channels with water, these features are “inverted,” or elevated above the surrounding terrain. Again, in analogy with such features seen on our planet, these probably formed when materials deposited by the streams, such as coarse gravel, or chemical cementation after removal of the water, caused the channel bottoms to become resistant. Over time, natural erosion from wind and other processes left the inverted channels elevated above the surrounding terrain.
http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_007095_2020


Inverted Fluvial Channels and Craters with Ejecta Rays
Image
The lower part of this image shows well-defined overlapping channels, which have inverted topography (i.e., they were once low spots that have been filled in with sediments and now eroded in a such a way that they appear as topographically high regions).
Image
The channels have a winding and intersecting geometry indicating the shifting of the channels over time, a feature consistent with the flow of water in rivers. The channels have small craters that have excavated the channel materials and ejected them to form well-defined rays.
http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_007394_1750


Possible Quartz Monzonite Outcrop in Antoniadi Crater
Image
http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_006673_2000


Mars Volcano Apollinaris Patera
Image
Dwarfed by Olympus Mons and the other immense shield volcanos on Mars, Apollinaris Patera rises only 3 miles or so into the thin martian atmosphere, but bright water-ice clouds can be still be seen hovering around its summit. Mars' volcanic structures known as "paterae" are not only smaller than its shield volcanos but older as well, with ages estimated to be around 3 billion years. Like Apollinaris Patera, narrow furrows typically extend from their central craters or calderas. It is thought that the paterae represent broad piles of easily eroded volcanic ash. This wide angle view of Apollinaris Patera was recorded last month by the Mars Global Surveyor spacecraft. The large central crater is about 50 miles across.
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap990513.html


Branched Features on Floor of Antoniadi Crater
http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_001992_2015
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Re: Electric discharges to dusty CRT match planetary features

Unread postby StefanR » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:34 pm

The illusion from which we are seeking to extricate ourselves is not that constituted by the realm of space and time, but that which comes from failing to know that realm from the standpoint of a higher vision. -L.H.
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Re: Electric discharges to dusty CRT match planetary features

Unread postby StefanR » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:54 pm

Unusual Bright Soil on Mars
Image
What is this bright soil on Mars? Several times while rolling across Mars, the treads of the robotic rover Spirit have serendipitously uncovered unusually bright soil. Spirit uncovered another batch unexpectedly last month while rolling toward its winter hibernation location on McCool Hill. The physics and chemistry instruments on Spirit have determined the soil, shown above, contains a high content of salts including iron-bearing sulfates. A leading hypothesis holds that these salts record the presence of past water, with the salts becoming concentrated as the water evaporated.
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap060406.html


Rectangular Ridges on Mars
Image
What could cause rectangular ridges on Mars? As data flows in from the two spacecraft currently orbiting Mars, surface structures are seen that are not immediately understood. These structures pose puzzles that planetary geologists are eager to solve, as they might provide clues to past processes that have shaped Mars over billions of years. On the right of the above image is an unusual array of ridges first spotted in Mariner 9 data in 1972. A ridge wall runs for about 5 kilometers.
Two competing progenitor theories include hardened sand dunes and once-molten rock that seeped through surface cracks and cooled. Dubbed "Inca City" for their resemblance to stone walls of an ancient Earth civilization, the new Mars Global Surveyor images now show them to be part of a larger circular pattern, indicating an origin possibly related to the impact crater. (Non-natural origin hypotheses are not invoked by conservative scientists unless clear indications exist that natural processes could not work.)
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap021001.html


http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap031224.html
Image
Why are some hills on Mars so layered? The answer is still under investigation. Clearly, dark windblown sand surrounds outcropping of light sedimentary rock across the floor of crater Arabia Terra. The light rock clearly appears structured into many layers, the lowest of which is likely very old. Although the dark sand forms dunes, rippled dunes of lighter colored sand are easier to see surrounding the stepped mesas. Blown sand possibly itself eroded once-larger mesas into the layered hills. Most of the layered shelves are wide enough to drive a truck around.
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap031224.html


A Dust Devil on Mars
Image
Does the surface of Mars change? When inspecting yearly images of the Martian surface taken by the robot spacecraft Mars Global Surveyor currently orbiting Mars, sometimes new dark trails are visible. Although originally a mystery, the culprit is now usually known to be a dust devil, a huge swirling gas-cloud with similarities to a terrestrial tornado. Pictured above, a recent image has not only captured a new dark trail but the actual dust devil itself climbing a crater wall. Dust devils are created when Martian air is heated by a warm surface and begins to spin as it rises. Dust devils can stretch 8 kilometers high but usually last only a few minutes.
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap020903.html


Brain Crater on Mars
Image
What caused this unusual looking crater floor on Mars? Appearing at first glance to resemble the human brain, the natural phenomena that created the unusual texture on the floor of this Martian impact crater are currently under investigation. The light colored region surrounding the brain-textured region is likely sand dunes sculpted by winds. The Mars Global Surveyor robot spacecraft that has been orbiting Mars since 1997 took the above image. Meanwhile, down on the surface, robots Spirit and Opportunity continue to roll, inspecting landscape, rocks, and soil for clues to the ancient watery past of the red planet. Humorously, this brain-terrain on Mars spans about a kilometer, making it just about the right size to fit inside the rock formation once dubbed the Face on Mars.
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap040519.html


Bright Exposures of Chloride Salt on Southern Mars
Image
Evidence that this site and about 200 other sites in the southern highlands of Mars bear deposits of chloride salts comes from observations by the Thermal Emission Imaging System on NASA's Mars Odyssey orbiter. The salt deposits typically lie within topographic depressions, as exemplified in this image. They point to places where water was once abundant, then evaporated, leaving the minerals behind.
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/MRO/multimedia/pia10248.html


Study Past Martian Water
Image
This image of the central peak and wall of a crater in Tyrrhena Terra, in Mars' ancient southern highlands, was taken by the Compact Reconnaissance Imaging Spectrometer for Mars (CRISM) at 0956 UTC (4:56 a.m. EST) on February 8, 2008, near 4.85 degrees south latitude, 104.16 degrees east longitude. CRISM's image was taken in 544 colors covering 0.36-3.92 micrometers, and shows features as small as 35 meters (115 feet) across. The region covered is just over 10 kilometers (6.2 miles) wide at its narrowest point.
The upper panel of the image shows the location of the CRISM data and the surrounding, larger CTX image, overlain on an image mosaic taken by the Thermal Emission Imaging System (THEMIS) on Mars Odyssey. The mosaic has been color-coded for elevation using data from the Mars Orbiter Laser Altimeter (MOLA) instrument on the Mars Global Surveyor (MGS) spacecraft. Redder colors indicate higher elevations. The bottom left image shows infrared brightness of the surface measured by CRISM at 2.5, 1.5, and 1.1 micrometers. In the lower right image, the data have been transformed into a map of spectral features indicating the presence of different minerals. This map emphasizes the primary igneous minerals that are present, with reddish areas indicating olivine and blue to greenish areas indicating pyroxene. In a different version of the mineral map, phyllosilicates can also be seen in the crater's central peak near the upper portion of the image.
http://crism.jhuapl.edu/gallery/featuredImage/image.php?gallery_id=2&image_id=131
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