Antarctica - once a tropical paradise - video

[ancientd]

When in the U,S I interviewed Rick Firestone of Berkeley national laboratories ( attached to Berkeley university). He is well up on the nuclear impregnation of the mammoths in Canada,Alaska and North America. These mammoths,Mastodons,short faced Bear and other species were often impregnated with iron spherules,minute carbon spherules and a range of radioactive elements sich as Iridium .He showed me the tusks and I viewed these craterlike impregnations Although it is obviously controversial what the agent of destruction and freezing was something massive occurred at a date in the not too distant past. He believes around 12,000 years ago . But of course he is relying on Carbon dating which he in particular says is subject too erroneus results when a large injection of C14 hits the magnetosphere .

Also the subject of ice core studies must be questioned regarding the annual layer paradigm and this is covered in the film""Antarctica once a tropical paradise" ( availible on the Thunderbolts website via MIKAMAR ). But briefly many ice core layers can be formed in a year . They are storm deposits followed by melting events .Every sturm ( being an electrical event) can produce isotopic Oxygen, the measuring differentiator of the so called year. Furthermore it has been shown, that at least in Antarctica, up to 40 percent of the ice beneath the ice sheet consists of meltwater and thus is impossible to include in ice layer studies
Peter Mungo Jupp

[moses]

Also, if a lot of the ice at the poles was deposited quickly then it is possible that the ice formed natural lamination as it was deposited. Each layer could have different isotope signatures, which could repeat. Thus the majority of the ice could have formed in only a few years.
Mo

[ancientd]

Dead right moses and personally I think that is what probably happened especially as much of the interior of Antarctica has low snow deposition today, Nowadays it mainly falls around the periphery in the Katabatic wind regions.

[Julian Braggins]

So it looks like there is a reasonable hypothesis for :-

1 The frozen mammoths etc, peppered with meteoric sphericules

2 Sudden deep freezing

3 Rapid snow storms forming pseudo annual layers in icecaps

4 Maps showing ice free Antarctica and Greenland

5 Time frame circa ten thousand years or less is feasible

Which is, that the planetary configuration around that time or times, was more or less as depicted by Velikovski, Thoth papers, Saturniancosmology.org, catastrophism.com .
'The Ring of Fire' might explain why the frozen animals were where they were, eating temperate grassland food, and a minor satellite or several from any of the planets could account for many of the disasters in these accounts.

I guess we will never know for certain, but it is fun coming up with something that is reasonable, given all the evidence available.

[ancientd]

From a Velikoskian view point he hypothesized many geophysical dramas . From his chosen focusthe time frame 1500BC to around 650BC presents the most powerful mythological and geophysical evedence . This time frame was All due to teplanets Mars Venus, Jupiter and possibly Mercury in celestial ( electro magnetic )combat. For him Saturn ( as with Hesiod) was an earlier era. I suspect however ( as does Claude Schaeffer ,Velikovsky's fellow traveler )that even later celestial events occurred . The little Ice Age, for instance, may of been due to CME's( whether internally or externally driven). the decline and fall of the Roman Empire to a latter day Venus effect or even as Rick Firestone from Berkeley national laboratories would have you believe, an external to the solar system exploding Nova event. . Magnetic reversals, CME's , planets in disturbed motion. Of course as you say so much is speculation except this. Many cataclysmic events have befallen mankind and it is fun and somehow intriguing that we search for the causes. What is in the way, generlly, is the Lyall and Hutton concepts of a slowly evolving planet with millions of years seperating extinctions and geological dramas. This concept seeks to explain time as the master of change.
Re the ring of fire I find this a hard concept to swallow but of course it is a possibility. To me at least a change in the magnetic poles is more probable with necessarily accompanying electrical discharges and more than possible a change in the orientation of the physical poles . I would love to hear your comments
. PETER Mungo Jupp

[Julian Braggins]

Climate and extreme weather events certainly had a large part in the decline and fall of the Roman Empire.
The northern European tribes had little option other than move south as weather deteriorated in several periods during the Dark Ages. Reading about these in "A Chronological listing of Early Weather Events" by James A. Marusek impact@hughes.net was a real eye opener ( free PDF 580 pages, )

All the great rivers froze many times, the Bosporus was choked with ice bergs 3 stories high more than once, when the Black Sea froze, even the Nile froze. Causes are not listed as they were unknown (much as climate to-day )

Reading that, I realise that we have been living in one of the most benign climates of the last thousand years, and that worrying about a fraction of a degree change in a century is laughable!

[Julian Braggins]

http://www.breadandbutterscience.com is the correct link for the PDF mentioned above

[Lloyd]

Peter said: From a Veliko[v]skian view point he hypothesized many geophysical dramas . From his chosen focus the time frame 1500BC to around 650BC presents the most powerful mythological and geophysical ev[i]dence . This time frame was All due to t[h]e planets Mars, Venus, Jupiter and possibly Mercury in celestial (electro magnetic) combat. For him Saturn ( as with Hesiod) was an earlier era.

* Cardona, Talbott et al determined that Velikovsky misdated the post-Saturnian planetary clashes a thousand years too recent and much of his analyses were incorrect, despite being correct regarding the larger picture and regarding Saturn to some extent.
* See the Cardona interview at http://thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3824. The 2nd post there is similar to the following, which is a revision for greater accuracy.
* The ice caps are no more than 10,000 years old, because Saturn flare-ups removed them periodically, and the last flare-up was 10,000 years ago when Saturn [with Earth, Mars etc] entered the Solar System. It's uncertain whether the Saturn System breakup 4,500 years ago also removed the ice caps, which then reformed, or whether they remained in large part.

Chronological Outline of Cardona's Saturn Theory

Phase 1:
Saturn System Formation:
Saturn formed in the Sagittarius Dwarf Galaxy as a Brown Dwarf Star;
it was alone in space [as far as we know so far] with a Circumstellar Disk, Bipolar Jets and an invisible Plasmasphere

Phase 2:
Numerous Saturn Flare-up cycles
Each cycle involved:
a) a Saturn Flare-up, similar to solar flares, but much more powerful; the flare-ups resulted from Saturn's plasmasphere encountering other stellar plasmaspheres, while moving from the Sagittarius Galaxy to the Milky Way;
b) a possible Rocky Planet/Satellite Ejection [possibly forming Earth, Mars, Mercury, & other Satellites, as many as one per cycle];
c) Deposition of Saturn Flare Dust, Petroleum, Water etc on Satellite Planets, i.e. on Mars, Earth, and other Saturn moons;
d) Melting of Earth’s Temperate Zone Glaciers and Filling of Oceans;
e) a Long Quiet Interim;
f) New Saturn Disk Formation, Resumption of Saturn's Bipolar Jets & New Glacier Formation on Earth.
g) Temperate Zone Glaciation occurred, again removing most of the water from the Oceans [the Bipolar Jets, also called the Polar Column, removed some of the ocean waters.]

Phase 3:
Continental Drift without subduction, due to flare-up braking Earth's rotation and Earth's crust sliding over its Moho layer [possibly part of some Flare-up cycles, with continents moving farther apart during several flare-up cycles] and possible Earth Expansion & Contraction

Phase 4:
Pre-human Saturn Flare-up cycles [possibly forming more Saturn satellites]

Phase 5:
Appearance of Humans

Phase 6:
Post-human Saturn Flare-up cycles [possibly forming Titan, etc.]

Phase 7: ~10,000 yrs ago:
Saturn's Last Flare-up: [possibly forming Venus]
One final Saturn Flare-up during the Saturn System's entry into the Solar System, which ended the prior Age of Darkness; immediately after the flare-up, the Sun, Venus, Mars and possibly some of Saturn's other smaller moons first became visible [Venus may have been ejected, or birthed, from Saturn during the flare-up; the Sun appeared at first as a small star and no other stars were visible]

Phase 8: ~10,000 - 4,500 yrs ago:
Civilization:
Beginning of Human Religion & Pre-history, also called Mythology, and of Civilization, with worship and imitation of Saturn

Phase 9: ~4,500 yrs ago:
Saturn System breakup:
Saturn & Jupiter clashed near the inner Asteroid Belt; Venus appeared as a comet; Venus & Mars clashed; the Moon arrived in Earth's orbit; Mars & Moon perhaps clashed; the Stars first became visible after the breakup; the Great Flood, Noah's Flood, occurred then, when Saturn's polar column to Earth was severed

Phase 10: 4,500 yrs ago to present:
Post-Saturn Stabilization:
Planets settled into their present orbits; Beginning of Recorded History

[ancientd]

Lloyd . yes I discussed this concept with Michael Armstrong and of course I have read a couple of Dwardu's books so i am familiar with the theory. Mike ( I trust I have got this correct ) believes ,as does Dave Talbot ,that Velikovsky confused Jupiter with Saturn and Venus.Either way we have spectacular interplanetry drama unless we are all wrong. For instance Rens believes ( again I hope I am correct) we cannot attribute these dramas to any cause with precision.
However one point I would make is that, in my studies of ancient history and certainly from the eminent archaeologist Claude Schaeffer's point of view, there have been many geophysical dramas at dates much closer to our times . The previous post mentioned the fall of the Roman empire with drowts and plagues and invasive race movements. Another is the little ice age ( see www.ancientdestructions.com ---the destructions)Whatever form they took they must have a celestial origin be it CME, comet, interplanetry drama or from an origin outside the solar system .To me these modern ,I believe celestial events are neglected areas and deserve closer attention. For instance the TPOD on the "Chicago Fires" alludes to an EU event.
Peter Mungo Jupp

[reka]

Not only was Antarctica ice free, but also the Arctic and the rest of Earth. What can explain this. Well the Earth's magnetic field is decreasing so that back then the magnetic field could have been vastly greater. Presumably this would have been caused by a large electric current flowing into and around the Earth. This would have warmed the entire Earth, and the Sun could have been a lot further away from Earth.

Then all that is needed to suddenly turn the polar regions freezing is to suddenly turn off this electric current and send Earth into an elliptical orbit around the Sun. Then no flip of the Earth is required.
Mo

Perhaps the moon as we know her today was a smaller sun which was not able to convert her energy to burn hydrogen?
There was a major upheaval and the earth did travel to it's current position approximately 8,000 yrs ago, where the asteroid belt is located today.
There was no 'flip' of the planet, only a 23.5 deg shift of it's axis and the earth traveled to it's present position of today because of the extra weight of the water which came from the moon. This is also why we have seasons today.

[moses]

So reka, you place the Earth where the asteroid belt 8,000+ years ago. And you have the earth's axis perpendicular to the ecliptic, ie at 0 degrees. Now this would not likely produce an ice-free arctic and antarctic that had trees, etc. Would you care to describe how there might be warmth in the polar regions 8,000+ years ago.
Mo

[reka]

A sun that we know and see today, plus the smaller sun which today is our moon.

[JW Doogie]

Chronological Outline of Cardona's Saturn Theory

Thank you Lloyd for your summary of the "combined" Saturn Theory and other associated EU Theorists chronology!
I've been following this Forum for over two years, and not seen it so succinctly hi-lited.
I especially appreciate your showing where the great EU Theorists are in basic agreement on key landmark/touchstone events in the timeline and on the main causative agents they propose.
The fine detail points on these threads are always going to be debatable, I suppose. But, having a structure or framework in mind while trying to follow the discussions here helps dispel confusion immeasurably. Especially for someone like me who's a layman, and has a habit of being sporadic in my staying abreast of the discussions here.

Do you have a thread you can point me to where you've fleshed it out some more?
Thank You!

[Lloyd]

* Reka, you seem to be confusing Saturn and the Moon. The ancients seem to have seen Saturn as crescent-shaped some of the time, because of how the Sun shone on it, while the Earth was one of Saturn's satellites.
* JW, sorry I missed your question.
* There are a lot more details in the Cardona interview at http://thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3824 and many other places.
* Dave Talbott seems to have been working on the Venus and Mars events just prior to and maybe during the Saturn System breakup. I think he said once that, although Mars was unstable first, moving cyclically between Venus and Earth within the Saturn System, which may have covered about the distance to the Moon or somewhat more than that, Venus later became unstable too, and began to follow a similar movement. But I don't know for how long a period of time that would have been.
* And I like Gary Gilligan's findings too, which covers some of the events involving Mars, Mercury etc that occurred over a long period of time after the Saturn System breakup, down to the time of Alexander the Great. See http://www.gks.uk.com/about/. Several TPODs covered some of his findings. Like John Ackerman, he thinks Mercury was the former core of Mars and that it was ejected from Mars at the location of the huge canyon, Valles Marineris. But I find that hard to believe offhand, though maybe Mercury was a moon of Mars.
* See http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=e ... =p&pdl=500 for everything on this website from or about Gary.

[Xuxalina Rihhia]

Phase 1:
Saturn System Formation:
Saturn formed in the Sagittarius Dwarf Galaxy as a Brown Dwarf Star;
it was alone in space [as far as we know so far] with a Circumstellar Disk, Bipolar Jets and an invisible Plasmasphere

I think the plasmasphere would have been lit up, say the color purple as mentioned in the "Purple dawn of creation," from what I've read. Perhaps Saturn was that color as well.