Catastrophism vs. Gradualism - a false debate?

[platyhelminth]

under sea rifts are characterized by both a raising and a rifting.

As shown on this image : http://www3.ncc.edu/faculty/bio/fanelli ... 9/0321.jpg
mid ocean rifts are under sea montains and they have a rift (or a big canyon) at their top.

[PersianPaladin]

under sea rifts are characterized by both a raising and a rifting.

As shown on this image : http://www3.ncc.edu/faculty/bio/fanelli ... 9/0321.jpg
mid ocean rifts are under sea montains and they have a rift (or a big canyon) at their top.

Yes, but mountain building orogeny comes in a variety of forms on our planet.

[starbiter]

For example, the Grand Canyon really is an anomaly in terms of how it forms a deep rift in the Colorado Plateau. The characteristics of the canyon are unique in their structure and differ very much from the fold-type nature of many of the mountains we see such as those on plate margins - i.e. Andes and the Rockies. The equivalent on Mars, is Valles Marineris - which is ultimately just a scaled-up version of the Grand Canyon.

No, a huge geological structure has been found beneath the colorado plateau : see http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... anyon.html

This has been reported in the forum for the first time here : http://thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/v ... 735#p51184

colorado canyon may become a future mid ocean rift like the east african rift :

The photograph above shows what appears to me to be slurry runoff from the hills in the background. The horizontal layering is right out the the sedimentology videos linked below.

http://www.sedimentology.fr/

After deposition the material would easily erode from the drainage that followed.

Again, i'm not opposed to gradualism. We do have volcanoes that grow. The volcanoes are the beginning of the dune process in many cases, IMO. They would rise above the surface of oceans and seas. But from what i see, the catastrophes within the last 10,000 years completely obscure the results of gradualism.

Concerning the Grand Canyon, it appears to be an inland sea that was repeatedly filled in by slurry runoff. During dry periods dunes would form on dry land. Then new sloshes would cover everything. Eventually, as the sea retreated, a massive flood cut through the fresh sediment causing the canyon. The photograph below shows the width of the river as it cut through the slurry runoff. At the beginning of the process the river was the width of the top of the canyon. As the water level of the river decreased, the canyon became narrower. The process seems clear and simple to me. But what do i know?

When the area was an inland sea the canyon would fill in to some extant due to slurry runoff, but the floods that developed as the water level decreased would easily rip through the fresh soft sediment.

Later a current lithified the surfaces.

michael

[platyhelminth]

the photograph I posted previously is from the east african rift. There were no water involved during its formation and its cliff look like a lot to the grand canyon. The east african formation of the rift is very fast (for a geological event) but still I would not call it catastrophism for now. The population, plants and animal can continue to live mostly ignoring it. It may become catastrophism when the rift will drop to the sea level (then, becoming flooded) thing that should not hapen very soon.

another picture of the east african rift (obviously no water involved) :


cracks on mars :
-cerebus region http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/5045 ... 46-710.jpg
-parallel faults in tharsis region (similar to east african rift) http://ces.iisc.ernet.in/hpg/envis/Remo ... on1913.htm

[starbiter]

Hello platyhelminth: I'm not opposed to cracks in the surface of planets and moons as part of the geologic process. Dr Velikovsky believed the Earth was under great stress during the encounters with Mars and especially Venus. The rotation apparently reversed with the Sun rising in the West. That would create stress probably.

The photograph You posted from the East African Rift could be the result of a stesss caused crack. But there appears to be slurry runoff displayed in the sediment. This implies a wet process. When runoff from one direction meets a runoff from another direction it seems to create a weak spot. It is also the low point in many cases, causing a river. The photograph shows the inside of an alluvial fan, IMHO. This would probably be the result of a slosh of the seas and oceans.

I'd like to look at this site in person. Would You please post a Google Map location, if You know it.

michael

[platyhelminth]

this is at Hayli Gubbi, north of Gorroble, Afar, Ethiopia (source : http://www.swisseduc.ch/stromboli/perm/ ... .html?id=6 ) . google map: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source= ... a&t=h&z=11
Sadly this place of the world has a very bad resolution in google map. I can see parallel faults here : http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source= ... 22724&z=16

You can find more info about the east african rift here : http://geology.com/articles/east-africa-rift.shtml
This could help to explore all this region with google map (if the resolution allow it, the french territory Djibouti has the best resolution in that region)

[starbiter]

this is at Hayli Gubbi, north of Gorroble, Afar, Ethiopia (source : http://www.swisseduc.ch/stromboli/perm/ ... .html?id=6 ) . google map: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source= ... a&t=h&z=11
Sadly this place of the world has a very bad resolution in google map. I can see parallel faults here : http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source= ... 22724&z=16

You can find more info about the east african rift here : http://geology.com/articles/east-africa-rift.shtml
This could help to explore all this region with google map (if the resolution allow it, the french territory Djibouti has the best resolution in that region)

I think the map links above are for the second image You posted, the one with basalt. I was also interested in the first image, the one with the people above a crack. I could be wrong about the maps.

thanks, michael

[platyhelminth]

this one is from afar etiopia. http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source= ... ia&t=h&z=7

But i dont know where exactly.

I found something interesting here : http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source= ... 9&t=h&z=13
no garranty its in the same place that the photograph

[starbiter]

Thanks for the Maps. The map below shows mountains to the West.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source= ... 469177&z=9

It appears slurry runoff flowed to the East, filling in what was probably submerged.

Just West of the "A" is what appears to be the end of one of the runoffs. There is often one runoff above another. Some go further than others, depending on the amount of water and sediment.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source= ... 17294&z=11


Below is an area where slurry runoff flowed out the the mountains of Colorado into what was an inland sea. I'm looking ESE at the base of the Grand Mesa.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UT ... 7&t=p&z=12

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B-GyNP ... ZmM5&hl=en

I see two distinct flows. There could be more below the valley floor. This area would be predisposed to slurry runoff from the East. The entire valley was probably the height of the top flow, but when the river changed from Slurry to water, the water eroded the canyon. At least that's how i see it.

In order to understand, these two videos must be viewed.

http://www.sedimentology.fr/

michael

[platyhelminth]

there is structures in the lake Baringo are close to the grand canyon:
- google map : http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source= ... 81789&z=13
- photograph: http://geology.com/articles/east-africa ... ps-750.jpg
There are 2 distinct floor in this photograph too like in Grand Mesa. And in many place in the east african rift we can se even more that 2 flore. This is how I explain it :


also in the lake turkana : http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source= ... 9&t=h&z=12

all these lakes are in the deepest part of the rift : http://geology.com/articles/east-africa ... e1-400.jpg . As we can see in that picture, the east african rift is very big.

[starbiter]

It's easier to see in terrain mode.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source= ... 54324&z=13

This appears to be a run of the mill canyon, probably through slurry runoff. The stuff erodes very easily when it hasn't been lithified.

The image below is from Texas, North of San Antonio. It's called Canyon Lake Gorge.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UT ... 9&t=h&z=16

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B-GyNP ... YWVk&hl=en

The canyon was created in one day when the dam overflowed. The photograph is at the end of the canyon, where the erosion was less than close to the dam. Note the horizontal layering, similar to the sedimentology videos.

[platyhelminth]

look, the more powerful river of the world, the amazon is on one of the flattest place on earth : http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source= ... 43&t=p&z=6

The nile hasn't made the single cliff, even before the building of Nasser's Dam when it was stronger and less regular. http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source= ... 63&t=p&z=9
Also, note the parallel multifloor patern at the east of the nile : http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source= ... 63&t=p&z=9 this is due the opening of the red sez be a process i explained before


the niagara was continualy flattening before the construction of the hydro-electric power plant (which Tesla used intensively). Erosion was constantly " eating " the north part of the river and thus the niagara falls were progressively advancing nothward. http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source= ... 9&t=h&z=13

the canyon lake george would have flattenned the place too, if only it had the time for it. Now it is mostly dry as I can see in google map. I see it is quite small canyon which doesn't show the multi-floor pattern we see in google map for the grand canyon or the east african rift.

Also the the grand canyon seems 10Kilo meters wide, the east african rift seems 50 kilo-meters large (measuring "only" the width of the lake Tanganyika and the lake Malawi) . The east african rift has clearly the multi-floor pattern in many place. http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UT ... 27158&z=11
the east african rift "giant river" (if only it had existed) would have linked two seas (pattern never seen naturaly) and would have been incredibly large.

I hold that the original cause of the east african rift and grand canyon was a fault, and that water only made perpendicular (smaller) faults compared to the original fault. Here is a multi-floor pattern http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source= ... 27158&z=11
see in the original sismic cliffs we see perpendicular smaller faults made by water (of dendritic shape)

[starbiter]

Hello platyhelminth: The erosion at Canyon lake required 1 day. That was the length of the flood. And some of the material seems lithified, making it much less prone to erosion.

The floods i invoke for cutting valleys are nothing like the floods your familiar with. Try to imagine the Pacific Ocean moving East. Not a wave. The entire shebang. It would roll over the mountains and fill in the basins of the western US. The slurry outflow would create Brasil. The Amazon is just the drainage system that developed. Because the drainage is not steep, the erosion is minimal, hence no canyon. Try to imagine the Atlantic flowing to the East, flooding everything except the tops of mountains. Creatures and people would climb as high as possible, and take shelter in caves. That's where we find the bones of creatures and people, mixed together. The bones aren't chewed, even though carnivores are present. See Earth in Upheaval.

From my travels in the mountains and deserts i don't see folding, thrusting, or faulting having anything to do with anything.

Have You read Worlds in Collision platyhelminth? Without the crazy descriptions of the events that the survivors describe, what i'm proposing is impossible. With the descriptions as a guide, what i propose becomes inevitable. No faults required. Just blowing dust, floods, and a convenient river of fire. Without the wind, dust, floods, and river of fire, faults would be required.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/21746049/Veli ... -Collision

Dr Velikovsky thought the Rift Valley was the result of torsion and stress. It looks like all the rest of the valleys and canyons i see elsewhere. Blowing dust creating dunes, with slurry runoff filling in areas that are submerged. This is followed by floods eroding the fresh, soft sediments, just like Canyon Lake Gorge. But the flood at Canyon Lake was but a trickle.

faultless michael Not to say i don't have faults.

[platyhelminth]

The floods i invoke for cutting valleys are nothing like the floods your familiar with. Try to imagine the Pacific Ocean moving East. Not a wave. The entire shebang. It would roll over the mountains and fill in the basins of the western US. The slurry outflow would create Brasil. The Amazon is just the drainage system that developed. Because the drainage is not steep, the erosion is minimal, hence no canyon. Try to imagine the Atlantic flowing to the East, flooding everything except the tops of mountains. Creatures and people would climb as high as possible, and take shelter in caves. That's where we find the bones of creatures and people, mixed together. The bones aren't chewed, even though carnivores are present. See Earth in Upheaval.

was it salt water ? this would have certainly left footprint. And even fresh water too would have left footprints.

The erosion at Canyon lake required 1 day. That was the length of the flood. And some of the material seems lithified, making it much less prone to erosion.

then why the great canyon was not tithified ?

Also I was impressed by Prerrat's prediction of galaxies, predictions about the water-less comet discharges and electric stars. Many flods superior to mainstream cosmology. I know lot of people consider cosmology useless... so they don't care. But thats would be very good if plasma cosmology get merged with the mainstream and I feel that supporting too much extreme views ( and bible oriented..) in too much different field of science could be very negative.

[starbiter]

The floods i invoke for cutting valleys are nothing like the floods your familiar with. Try to imagine the Pacific Ocean moving East. Not a wave. The entire shebang. It would roll over the mountains and fill in the basins of the western US. The slurry outflow would create Brasil. The Amazon is just the drainage system that developed. Because the drainage is not steep, the erosion is minimal, hence no canyon. Try to imagine the Atlantic flowing to the East, flooding everything except the tops of mountains. Creatures and people would climb as high as possible, and take shelter in caves. That's where we find the bones of creatures and people, mixed together. The bones aren't chewed, even though carnivores are present. See Earth in Upheaval.

was it salt water ? this would have certainly left footprint. And even fresh water too would have left footprints.

The erosion at Canyon lake required 1 day. That was the length of the flood. And some of the material seems lithified, making it much less prone to erosion.

then why the great canyon was not tithified ?

Yes, the slosh/flood was salt water, with an occasional whale and lots of trilobites. The salt water was then flushed out of the drainage system by incessant rains. The rivers, lakes, and oceans boiled in places. The Earth was heated. The warmer than normal water evaporated, causing increased precipitation.

The foot print left behind is the Grand Canyon. And most if not all of the other canyons.

The Canyon Lake Gorge flood happened in 2002. Since 2002 the Aurora hasn't been melting mountains. Hence, no lithification.

michael