The first problem in physics is to choose the correct concepts to apply to our observations.
Wal Thornhill
http://www.holoscience.com/wp/cosmology ... sis-again/Lets review:
A recurring theme in this thread is the question of what one ought to "focus on" in scientific discourse.
My post asking, "CONCEPTS; WHO NEEDS THEM?" was intended to demonstrate how the epistemic method one uses in concept formation will determine what one designates as an essential characteristic of the existents one is focusing on /isolating from the surrounding context one is observing. The way one does this was shown to effect both, how one classifies/integrates into a category ones observations into words, and consequently how one uses that categorization in a sentence. I used Chris' own statements/usage as a "test case" to evaluate how he categorized the concept "creative". That is,
the way he communicated was a consequence of the method he employed in his cognitive processing of the world. I concluded that, based on his usage he was trying to integrate two different concepts into one and that was causing him to formulate invalid propositions and to speak equivocally about creativity and the
cognitive fact of the subconscious.
Now, I will use Chris' own usage of the concept
subconscious as another "test case" for evaluating his integration of that concept. While I do this, I'm going to demonstrate broader ironic facts relevant to both, the exchanges between Chris and I, and to many of Chris' own words in this thread.
Chris said:
Plasmatic, my definition does not at all deviate from the modern conventional view of the subconscious. Subconscious simply means below your ability to perceive it, and if you are not willing to accept that there exists a part of your brain which operates below your rational awareness, then the burden is really upon you to explain who or what is driving your car when your rational mind is occupied with thoughts other than driving? I think it's plain to see that there are very complex decisions being made in that specific situation (and many others), and that those decisions are made even when your rational focus wanders away from that which you are doing.....Part of the reason why I am not fully engaging this conversation is that I'm not quite sure what sort of gap exists between modern scientific culture and objectivism. I do see that modern scientific culture seems to reflect the general view (apparently held by objectivists) that the subconscious plays no important role in scientific practice, but I am so far very unimpressed by this notion that we can explain everything in terms of epistemology. Feel free to post that which you feel is important, but I will ask that you try harder to write for comprehension, and to the point....nobody can take the red pill for you. If you simply observe the alleged behavior of the subconscious, you'll see that it is difficult to observe. So, part of the journey here is whether or not you, personally, are willing to try to observe it, for yourself. That's not a conversation for you and me. That's between you and you ...
Chris, its clear from the above that you have concluded from the view that the subconscious is
imperceptible, that this somehow makes it
irrational, and this is why you see the concept "irrational" as essential to the concept
subconscious. Likewise you have categorized "awareness" as essential to the concept
rational. Its also clear that you have
categorized your usage in accordance with the consensus of "modern conventional view", and apparently you think that this is the type of situation the "onus of proof" principle is generalized from (we'll get to that)....You then go on to state that you are "so far very unimpressed" with the "the general view" seemingly held by "modern scientific culture" about the subconscious....
If electrons are imperceptible,
then does this mean that they are "irrational"?
If one can become aware of their own bias,
then does that mean that bias is rational?
If you are unimpressed with the "the general view" seemingly held by "modern scientific culture" about the subconscious,
then how can your definition not "at all deviate from the modern conventional view of the subconscious"?
If your view of the subconscious of "consumers" is part of the "science of mind"- "psychology and sociology",
then is science a different category than the "modern conventional view"? Unless you think they are separate categories....(?)
If science is a separate category/concept from "the modern conventional view",
then how is the consensus view of the subconscious you differ from "not at all" part of "the modern conventional view "?
If the subconscious is imperceptible,
then how can one "observe" its behavior?
You have made more package deals here and it has clearly caused you to equivocate. The question is why? What is the
cause of these mis-integrations? How does this relate to many of the things you've posted recently? Can you use these discussions as "test cases" for your own quest here? Do you see how the method you use to conceptualize effects the propositions you formulate your arguments with? This will in turn effect any models you construct into worldviews! At each level the invalid concepts will show up along with the invalid propositions that are predicated as a result of accepting these categorizations. But they are effects of a root cause, an invalid method of concept formation.
The organization of concepts into propositions, and the wider principles of language—as well as the further problems of epistemology—are outside the scope of this work, which is concerned only with the nature of concepts. But a few aspects of these issues must be indicated.
Since concepts, in the field of cognition, perform a function similar to that of numbers in the field of mathematics, the function of a proposition is similar to that of an equation: it applies conceptual abstractions to a specific problem.
A proposition, however, can perform this function only if the concepts of which it is composed have precisely defined meanings. If, in the field of mathematics, numbers had no fixed, firm values, if they were mere approximations determined by the mood of their users—so that "5," for instance, could mean five in some calculations, but six-and-a-half or four-and-three-quarters in others, according to the users' "convenience"—there would be no such thing as the science of mathematics.
Yet this is the manner in which most people use concepts, and are taught to do so.
Above the first-level abstractions of perceptual concretes, most people hold concepts as loose approximations, without firm definitions, clear meanings or specific referents; and the greater a concept's distance from the perceptual level, the vaguer its content. Starting from the mental habit of learning words without grasping their meanings, people find <ioe2_76> it impossible to grasp higher abstractions, and their conceptual development consists of condensing fog into fog into thicker fog—until the hierarchical structure of concepts breaks down in their minds, losing all ties to reality; and, as they lose the capacity to understand, their education becomes a process of memorizing and imitating. This process is encouraged and, at times, demanded by many modern teachers who purvey snatches of random, out-of-context information in undefined, unintelligible, contradictory terms.
ITOE
Notice how many things in this quote you are in agreement with?
This is what the "Logical Leap" is all about:
http://www.thelogicalleap.com/?p=180 Scientific Disagreements–and Philosophic Causes
Philosophy is primarily about method; it’s about the principles that tell us how to discover knowledge. And even a quick look at the history of science shows us that these principles are not obvious. In astronomy, for instance, Ptolemy and Copernicus did not simply disagree in their scientific conclusions about the solar system; they also disagreed in their underlying philosophic ideas about how to develop a theory of the solar system. In essence, Ptolemy thought it was best to settle for a mathematical description of the appearances, whereas Copernicus began the transition to focusing on causal explanations. So what is the goal of science–to describe appearances, or to identify causes? The answer depends on the philosophy you accept.
Similarly, in 17th century physics, Descartes and Newton did not simply disagree in their scientific theories; they strongly disagreed about the basic method of developing such theories. Descartes wanted to deduce physics from axioms, whereas Newton induced his laws from observational evidence. So what is the essential nature of scientific method–is it primarily deductive, or primarily inductive? And what is the role of experiment in science? The answers depend on your theory of knowledge.
Here’s another example: Consider the contrast between Lavoisier, the father of modern chemistry, and the alchemists of the previous era. Lavoisier did not merely reject the scientific conclusions of the alchemists; he rejected their method of concept-formation and he originated a new chemical language, and then he used a quantitative method for establishing causal relationships among his concepts. So how do we form valid concepts, and what is the proper role of mathematics in physical science? Again, your answers to such fundamental questions will depend on the philosophy you accept.
Finally, consider the battle between two late 19th century physicists, Boltzmann and Mach. Boltzmann was the leading advocate of the atomic theory and he used that theory to develop the field of statistical thermodynamics. Mach, on the other hand, was a leading advocate of positivism; he thought that physicists should stick to what they can see, and that the atomic theory was nothing more than speculative metaphysics. So what is the relationship between observation and theory, and how is a theory proven, and are there limits to scientific knowledge? Once again, these are philosophic questions.
Such issues have not gone away with time. There is a great deal of controversy in theoretical physics today, and these basic issues of method are at the heart of the controversy. Some physicists say that string theory is a major triumph that has unified quantum mechanics and relativity theory for the first time. Other physicists argue that string theory is just a mathematical game detached from reality–that it isn’t a theory of everything, but instead a theory of anything. And we’re starting to hear similar criticisms of Big Bang cosmology; if the theory is so flexible that it can explain anything, the critics say, perhaps it actually explains nothing.
How do we decide these issues? How do we know the right method of doing science, and what standards should we use to evaluate scientific ideas? These are some of the questions that I try to answer in my book. . . .
You have also made many general
assertions about me and Objectivism and regarding the subconscious :
I do see that modern scientific culture seems to reflect the general view (apparently held by objectivists) that the subconscious plays no important role in scientific practice....Objectivism is Not a Consumer Perspective....
The problem with your approach, Plasmatic, is that you insist upon starting with objectivism. In other words, you completely refuse to start with the customer's perspective. You furthermore insist that people are rational -- in principle, disconnected from any customer behavior -- and then you completely ignore the irrational behavior of people who come to the conclusion that the EU is nonsense. Something went wrong here....How did those people come to that conclusion? Do you really believe that those people relied upon a scientific or some sort of epistemological methodology to come to that conclusion? When I watch and interact with people online who are trying to make sense of whether or not they should spend more time on this EU idea, I see people trying to apply mental shortcuts. They are literally trying NOT to think. They want to know what experts have to say about it; in other words -- again -- they are trying to avoid having to think
Some of these made me laugh out loud!.....
What I want to do here is to help you "metacognate" on your own methods to see if you've actually swallowed your own "red pill" Ironically you have brought up the very concepts in your recent articles that I mean to expand on while addressing the above
assertions .
One unexpected pattern that emerged from the different justifications that subjects offered for continuing to believe in the validity of the link was that it helped citizens make sense of the Bush Administration's decision to go to war against Iraq.
"We refer to this as 'inferred justification,'" says Hoffman "because for these voters, the sheer fact that we were engaged in war led to a post-hoc search for a justification for that war......
"Our data shows substantial support for a cognitive theory known as 'motivated reasoning,' which suggests that rather than search rationally for information that either confirms or disconfirms a particular belief, people actually seek out information that confirms what they already believe.
"In fact," he says, "for the most part people completely ignore contrary information.
"The study demonstrates voters' ability to develop elaborate rationalizations based on faulty information," he explains.........
The concept of justification used above refers to an essential subject within epistemology!
Defined narrowly, epistemology is the study of knowledge and justified belief. As the study of knowledge, epistemology is concerned with the following questions: What are the necessary and sufficient conditions of knowledge? What are its sources? What is its structure, and what are its limits? As the study of justified belief,[b] epistemology aims to answer questions such as: How we are to understand the concept of justification? What makes justified beliefs justified? Is justification internal or external to one's own mind? Understood more broadly, epistemology is about issues having to do with the creation and dissemination of knowledge in particular areas of inquiry[/b].
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/epistemology/What the article from Physorg is doing is taking a position based on the authors answers to the questions asked in the Stanford article on epistemology and in Harriman's article!
recall I asked for "a justification of this notion that creativity is a kind of emotional non-rational process"
The question is what should an individuated thinker do with that position? Does knowing that
every single statement someone makes presupposes taking certain inescapable positions on philosophy make one more likely to try to identity them? How does having an explicit knowledge of what
justification is effect how one makes and responds to others statements/claims? What exactly does the subconscious have to do with it? How does the
conscious methods one employs relate to the subconscious? How does my own answers to the above reduce your claims about me and Oism to absurdity? Lets see!
I said:
I want to stress that I do see the subconscious as relevant as well as what Rand called "psycho-epistemology" I will elaborate soon.
What is the objectivist position on the subconscious?
You have no choice about the necessity to integrate your observations, your experiences, your knowledge into abstract ideas, i.e., into principles. Your only choice is whether these principles are true or false, whether they represent your conscious, rational convictions—or a grab-bag of notions snatched at random, whose sources, validity, context and consequences you do not know, notions which, more often than not, you would drop like a hot potato if you knew.
But the principles you accept (consciously or subconsciously) may clash with or contradict one another; they, too, have to be integrated. What integrates them? Philosophy. A philosophic system is an integrated view of existence. As a human being, you have no choice about the fact that you need a philosophy. Your only choice is whether you define your philosophy by a conscious, rational, disciplined process of thought and scrupulously logical deliberation—or let your subconscious accumulate a junk heap of unwarranted conclusions, false generalizations, undefined contradictions, undigested slogans, unidentified wishes, doubts and fears, thrown together by chance, but integrated by your subconscious into a kind of mongrel philosophy and fused into a single, solid weight: self-doubt, like a ball and chain in the place where your mind's wings should have grown.You might say, as many people do, that it is not easy always to act on abstract principles. No, it is not easy. But how much harder is it, to have to act on them without knowing what they are?
Your subconscious is like a computer—more complex a computer than men can build—and its main function is the integration of your ideas. Who programs it? Your conscious mind. If you default, if you don't reach any firm convictions, your subconscious is programmed by chance—and you deliver yourself into the power of ideas you do not know you have accepted. But one way or the other, your computer gives you print-outs, daily and hourly, in the form of emotions—which are lightning-like estimates of the things around you, calculated according to your values. If you programmed your computer by conscious thinking, you know the nature of your values and emotions. If you didn't, you don't...........
man's values and emotions are determined by his fundamental view of life. The ultimate programmer of his subconscious is philosophy—the science which, according to the emotionalists, is impotent to affect or penetrate the murky mysteries of their feelings.
The quality of a computer's output is determined by the quality of its input. If your subconscious is programmed by chance, its output will have a corresponding character. You have probably heard the computer operators' eloquent term "gigo"—which means: "Garbage in, garbage out." The same formula applies to the relationship between a man's thinking and his emotions.
A man who is run by emotions is like a man who is run by a computer whose printouts he cannot read. He does not know whether its programming is true or false, right or wrong, whether it's set to lead him to success or destruction, whether it serves his goals or those of some evil, unknowable power. He is blind on two fronts: blind to the world around him and to his own inner world, unable to grasp reality or his own motives, and he is in chronic terror of both. Emotions are not tools of cognition. The men who are not interested in philosophy need it most urgently: they are most helplessly in its power.
The men who are not interested in philosophy absorb its principles from the cultural atmosphere around them—from schools, colleges, books, magazines, newspapers, movies, television, etc. Who sets the tone of a culture? A small handful of men: the philosophers. Others follow their lead, either by conviction or by default. For some two hundred years, under the influence of Immanuel Kant, the dominant trend of philosophy has been directed to a single goal: the destruction of man's mind, of his confidence in the power of reason. Today, we are seeing the climax of that trend........Observe that the history of philosophy reproduces—in slow motion, on a macrocosmic screen—the workings of ideas in an individual man's mind. A man who has accepted false premises is free to reject them, but until and unless he does, they do not lie still in his mind, they grow without his conscious participation and reach their ultimate logical conclusions. A similar process takes place in a culture: if the false premises of an influential philosopher are not challenged, generations of his followers—acting as the culture's subconscious—milk them down to their ultimate consequences.
Philosophy:Who needs it?
This happens to be some of my favorite quotes from Rand.
Clearly nothing you said of me or the Oist view of the subconscious is correct. Rand thought that the relationship between the
automatic, passive processes of the subconscious to the active aspects of consciousness were very important and she called the interplay mans "psycho-epistemological method" which caused his "sense of life":
Psycho-epistemology is the study of man’s cognitive processes from the aspect of the interaction between the conscious mind and the automatic functions of the subconscious.
http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/psycho-epistemology.html
A sense of life is formed by a process of emotional generalization which may be described as a subconscious counterpart of a process of abstraction, since it is a method of classifying and integrating. But it is a process of emotional abstraction: it consists of classifying things according to the emotions they invoke—i.e., of tying together, by association or connotation, all those things which have the power to make an individual experience the same (or a similar) emotion. For instance: a new neighborhood, a discovery, adventure, struggle, triumph—or: the folks next door, a memorized recitation, a family picnic, a known routine, comfort. On a more adult level: a heroic man, the skyline of New York, a sunlit landscape, pure colors, ecstatic music—or: a humble man, an old village, a foggy landscape, muddy colors, folk music. . . . The subverbal, subconscious criterion of selection that forms his emotional abstractions is: “That which is important to me” or: “The kind of universe which is right for me, in which I would feel at home.” . . .
It is only those values which he regards or grows to regard as “important,” those which represent his implicit view of reality, that remain in a man’s subconscious and form his sense of life.
“It is important to understand things”—“It is important to obey my parents”—“It is important to act on my own”—“It is important to please other people”—“It is important to fight for what I want”—“It is important not to make enemies”—“My life is important”—“Who am I to stick my neck out?” Man is a being of self-made soul—and it is of such conclusions that the stuff of his soul is made. (By “soul” I mean “consciousness.”)
The integrated sum of a man’s basic values is his sense of life.
http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/sense_of_life.htmlI submit to you that the essential concepts you are trying to find that differentiate the subconscious from the conscious are
passive and
active....or automatic and volitionally initiated. The subconscious is an automatic process we conceptualize by differentiating the cognitive process we are actively trying to initiate from those that are automatic.
Try relating this to creativity.....
There are many themes in your recent articles that relate to the above quotes, but the inferences drawn in them are terrible.
"Our data shows substantial support for a cognitive theory known as 'motivated reasoning,' which suggests that rather than search rationally for information that either confirms or disconfirms a particular belief, people actually seek out information that confirms what they already believe.
"In fact," he says, "for the most part people completely ignore contrary information.
"The study demonstrates voters' ability to develop elaborate rationalizations based on faulty information,"
"The argument here is that people get deeply attached to their beliefs," Hoffman says.
"We form emotional attachments that get wrapped up in our personal identity and sense of morality, irrespective of the facts of the matter.
The researchers presented the available evidence of the link, along with the evidence that there was no link, and then pushed respondents to justify their opinion on the matter. For all but one respondent, the overwhelming evidence that there was no link left no impact on their arguments in support of the link.
One unexpected pattern that emerged from the different justifications that subjects offered for continuing to believe in the validity of the link was that it helped citizens make sense of the Bush Administration's decision to go to war against Iraq.
"We refer to this as 'inferred justification,'" says Hoffman "because for these voters, the sheer fact that we were engaged in war led to a post-hoc search for a justification for that war.
we did not find that people were being duped by a campaign of innuendo so much as they were actively constructing links and justifications that did not exist.
"They wanted to believe in the link," he says, "because it helped them make sense of a current reality. So voters' ability to develop elaborate rationalizations based on faulty information, whether we think that is good or bad for democratic practice, does at least demonstrate an impressive form of creativity."
The obvious question is: How did those scientist overcome these proposed habits that they claim to have identified themselves? I will spend time on this later. Ive spent way too long on this post!
Just a couple more things:
Chris said:
What I would encourage you to do is to spend some time imagining what your own preferred system for annotating press releases would look like. You already know from your own experiences online what sort of pitfalls scientific discourse tends to succumb to. How would you use objectivism as a basis for formulating a structure which would steer the discourse to favorable learning outcomes?........
What you will notice when you engage this problem at that level is that the problem space is larger than just epistemology. I don't know that you'll come to that realization, however, without actually trying to imagine an actual interface of your own. I hope you decide to do it, because I am incredibly interested in what you might come up with. If we have to wait for me to develop a fluency in objectivism, before we can get a better picture of the type of features that an objectivist scientific social network would include, then this could take some time......
The problem with your approach, Plasmatic, is that you insist upon starting with objectivism. In other words, you completely refuse to start with the customer's perspective. You furthermore insist that people are rational -- in principle, disconnected from any customer behavior -- and then you completely ignore the irrational behavior of people who come to the conclusion that the EU is nonsense. Something went wrong here........
You only wanting to talk about objectivism
I suggest you "metacognate" on how you came to the above nonsensical claims about me! What justification did you offer? How many questions have you asked me on my positions you are asserting proclamations on? I very deliberately avoided discussing Objectivism until you brought it up. I "insisted" on using the
Socratic method repeatedly. I have constantly asked you questions on your premises. Do you need me to go find these quotes for you?
I will deal with the myth of a neutral structure later...
I think Morpheus needs to take those mirror finish glasses off and turn them around!
"Logic is the art of non-contradictory identification"......" I am therefore Ill think"
Ayn Rand
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
Aristotle