Why do you say the BB is a "Biblical" creation story?

What is a human being? What is life? Can science give us reliable answers to such questions? The electricity of life. The meaning of human consciousness. Are we alone? Are the traditional contests between science and religion still relevant? Does the word "spirit" still hold meaning today?

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Re: Why do you say the BB is a "Biblical" creation story?

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:08 pm

Yes, I like how you put it earlier. "Whether they are aware of it or not."

It follows from all of this that the most scientifically sound statement that can be made is that "The universe is of unknown origin, age and extent."

I have only heard one scientist ever say that.
ref: Electric Cosmology
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMgtWFqdPK0

Now the fun part would be to discuss why it is that the Materialists cannot bring themselves to keep within the bounds of the genuine physical sciences.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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Re: Why do you say the BB is a "Biblical" creation story?

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:26 am

F & W 1979 Encyclopedia

Materialism, in philosophy, doctrine that resolves all existence into matter or into an attribute or effect of matter. It makes matter the ultimate reality and explains the phenomenon of consciousness by physiochemical changes in the nervous system.


Materialism is thus the antithesis of idealism, which affirms the supremacy of mind and characterizes matter as an aspect or objectification of mind; see Dualism.


Extreme or absolute materialism is known as materialistic monism. According to the mind-stuff theory of monism, as expounded by the British metaphysician William Kingdon Clifford (1845-79) in his Elements of Dynamic, matter and mind are cosubstantial, each being merely an aspect of the other.


Philosophical materialism is very ancient and has numerous formulations. The early Greek philosophers subscribed to a variant of materialism known as hylozoism, according to which matter and life are identical; see Philosophy: Greek philosophy. Related to the doctrine of hylozoism is the doctrine of hylotheism, which holds matter to be divine, or disavows the existence of God apart from matter.


Cosmological materialism is a term frequently to characterize a materialistic interpretation of the universe.


Anti-religious materialism is motivated by a spirit of hostility toward the theological dogmas of organized religion, particularly those of Christianity. Notable among the exponents of anti-religious materialism were the 18th century French philosophers [Diderot, d'Holbach, and La Mettrie].


According to historical materialism, as set forth in the writings of such revolutionary political philosophers as the Germans [Marx, Engels, and the Russian Lenin], in every historical epoch the prevailing economic system by which the necessities of life are produced determines the form of social organization and the political, religious, ethical, and intellectual history of the epoch.


In modern times, philosophical materialism has been largely by the doctrine of evolution and may indeed be said to have been assimilated in the wider theory of evolution, which goes beyond the mere antitheism of materialism, and seeks positively to show how the diversities and differences in creation are the results of natural as opposed to supernatural processes. See also Mechanism.


So we see that Materialists have their doctrines to which they subjugate all evidence. Doctrines are not exclusive to those who are religious. But the problem seems to be that because the academics and experts are generally Materialists, they expect every one else to accept their doctrines and theories as science. But the two are not the same: not all materialists are scientists, and not all scientists are materialists.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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Re: Why do you say the BB is a "Biblical" creation story?

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:56 pm

Or, as the Britannica1959 puts it, "But none of the great empiricists has been satisfied (at least for long) with systematic materialism."
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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Re: Why do you say the BB is a "Biblical" creation story?

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:26 pm

Now perhaps the scientific discussion could benefit by taking a page from the old book. "Let us not be children, tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine." Let's suppose for a moment that the entire goal of science for systematic materialists is to generate a material explanation for all things. If this is the case, then the only answer which this extreme group cannot give is, "We do not know. This lies outside of the ability of present instrumentation to detect, and requires conditions which are not known to exist in any experiment."

In this hypothetical, the materialists at once claim to be scientists, and at the same time have abandoned all limitations of science. This is made much easier by the adoption of Kuhn's Paradigm Shifts, and the scorn of Karl Popper's processes of rational criticism, empirical demonstration, and by the need for a scientific theory to be falsifiable (in order to distinguish it from all of the theories and doctrines which men so abjectly serve).

I can offer as evidence that this is the case with materialists in the fact that they now claim that since Darwinian Evolution is science, and since it was not falsifiable, that therefore, scientific theories need not be falsifiable.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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Re: Why do you say the BB is a "Biblical" creation story?

Unread postby webolife » Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:55 pm

Well said. And I would summarize:
Post-modern scientific theories need not be logical or testable [eg. macroevolution, GR, QM, string theory, BB, DM, BH...) in order to pass the acceptability test, they simply need to be materialistic; any theory that presupposes a design in the universe [eg. irreducible complexity, intelligent design...] is by this definition unacceptable, regardless how logical, internally consistent or testable it's tenets may be.
Last edited by webolife on Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.
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Re: Why do you say the BB is a "Biblical" creation story?

Unread postby webolife » Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:13 pm

I say "post-modern" because the "fathers" of modern science were with few exceptions unabashedly rooted in the beliefs of theism and universal design. Until after the signing of the 2nd Humanist Manifesto after WW2, agnosticism seemed to dominate the debate, and the "separation of church and state" paradigm seated the throne. Since then, the promotion of atheism has grown to its present state of "religious" fervor, in attack mode against any acknowledgment of biblical or Christian [or theistic] roots.
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.
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Re: Why do you say the BB is a "Biblical" creation story?

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:05 pm

webolife writes,
And I would summarize:
Post-modern scientific theories need not be logical or testable (eg. macroevolution, GR, QM, string theory, BB, DM, BH...) in order to pass the acceptability test, they simply need to be materialistic;


If the primary goal of science for materialists is to generate a materialistic theory for every phenomena we see, then any materialistic theory, no matter how physically and scientifically unlikely or even impossible it is, is better than no theory. At the moment, I have no direct quote from BB/planetary accretion/macroevolution/etc scientists which say that. But I have seen enough debates online to know that that is what the materialists argue. "The science of evolution has some problems, but it is better than the sky fairy." I have included the abusive and colloquial language because it is quite common. Remember, Materialists by definition say that consciousness is a material phenomenon and they affirm that there are no spirits, no souls, no life after death, no angels, and no God.

Without a direct quote (at my fingertips), I can still say that the materialists do use a certain logical trap, known as the argument from ignorance, quite often -- which parallels the above argument. To illustrate, when it was discovered that Mercury had an eccentric orbit, it was taken as evidence of Einstein's General Relativity theory of gravity. They argued that Einstein had predicted an eccentric orbit and that furthermore, "we don't know what else it could be." --Now since then, the solar system history in mainstream science has changed, and includes regular incidents of planetary migration. Planetary migration could be the reason for Mercury's orbital eccentricity. In the same manner, climate scientists say that the global temperature (whatever that is) is rising, and man is adding ghgs, and that the experts know these two for a fact. They "don't know what else it could be" that would cause global temperatures to rise. So one of the logical fallacies to look for is the argument from ignorance by experts. And besides, it is the paradigm and language the materialist practitioners of science have have agreed upon.

An additional logical, or philosophical, trap that materialists rely on is that a "structured scientific revolution" or "paradigm shift" is essentially an "irrational process" and that it is never really a search for or a discovery of truth, but always just an effort to move away from some previous error.

These philosophical positions and goals allow the materialists to utilize any materialistic theory to explain anything, --for as long as necessary!
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer
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Re: Why do you say the BB is a "Biblical" creation story?

Unread postby jacmac » Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:45 pm

The BB theory is Biblical because it also starts with a miracle.

To run the expanding universe clock backwards all the way,
then trying to figure out what happened in the first thousand of a second
is about the best example HUBRIS that I know.

Saying when atheists have FAITH in something, like the sun coming up tomorrow, then they are the same as
those who believe in God, are trying to bring us back to their tent.
It might be the same word but not the same meaning.
No thanks, leave me out of that one.

All life seems to have come from some life before; so whats with this need to figure out the beginning.
Existence IS, get over it, and get on with it !

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Re: Why do you say the BB is a "Biblical" creation story?

Unread postby nick c » Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:16 am

jacmac wrote:The BB theory is Biblical because it also starts with a miracle.

Or as scifi author Terry Pratchett put it:
First there was nothing and then it exploded!
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Re: Why do you say the BB is a "Biblical" creation story?

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:18 pm

No, it was an Egg. :lol:
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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Re: Why do you say the BB is a "Biblical" creation story?

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:32 pm

jacmac » Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:45 pm

The BB theory is Biblical because it also starts with a miracle.


But what makes it "a miracle"? I think the main objection is to the singularity, which was an egg brought into existence out of nothing, by means of carefully crafted field equations. What makes it a miracle is that it is a suspension of the First Law of Thermodynamics. And I think some people object to the subsequent "accelerated expansion," which is accomplished through dark energy. The singularity and dark energy are postulated conditions which are not reproducible in any laboratory experiment.

On the other hand, a Steady State universe, which has no beginning or end, suspends the Second Law -- which is entropy. Another apparent +miracle.

...so whats with this need to figure out the beginning.


Jacmac may have worded it better, but we are asking the same question! It appears the materialists have a vested interest in a settled science explaining beginnings and evolution.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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