The Published Materials...

Plasma formations in the ancient sky. The role of planets as charged bodies in these formations. Ground-rules for drawing reliable conclusions. A new approach to the mythic archetypes: is a unified theory of world mythology possible?

The Published Materials...

Unread postby seasmith » Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:43 pm

David Talbott wrote:


...in my first vision of a “polar configuration.”


Dave T,

Considering your, [and Cardona’s] past references to a Northern polar alignment, for the configurations alluded to above, and, given Peratt’s conclusion that the overwhelming majority of ancient petroglyphs have a SFOV [Southern Field of View];
Would you care to comment on your current view of polar alignments?
Perhaps beginning with the example of proto-Saturn and associated column/axis-mundi/mound, as depicted in your above video trailer.

Thank you,
s
~
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Re: The Published Materials...

Unread postby Plasmatic » Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:00 pm

SATURN AND THE POLE
In ancient ritual Saturn appears as the stationary sun or central fire at the north celestial pole.
When Saturn ruled the world, his home was the summit of the world axis: with this point all major traditions of the great father agree. Even today, in our celebration of Christmas, we live under the influence of the polar Saturn. For as Manly P. Hall observes, "Saturn, the old man who lives at the north pole, and brings with him to the children often a sprig of evergreen (the Christmas tree), is familiar to the little folks under the name Santa Claus."(1)
Santa Claus, descending yearly from his polar home to distribute gifts around the world, is a muffled echo of the Universal Monarch, the primordial Osiris, Yama, or Kronos spreading miraculous good fortune. His polar abode, which might appear as an esoteric aspect of the story, is in fact an ancient and central ingredient. Saturn, the "best sun" and king of the world, ruled from the polar zenith. But while popular tradition located Santa Claus at the geographical pole, the earlier traditions place his prototype, the Universal Monarch, at the celestial pole, the pivot of the revolving heavens.
The home of the great father is the cosmic centre -- the "heart," "midst," or "navel" of heaven. As the earth rotates on its axis the northern stars wheel around a fixed point. While most stars rise and set like the sun and moon, the circumpolar stars -- those which describe uninterrupted circles about a common centre -- never fall below the horizon. The invisible axis of the earth's rotation leads directly to that central point -- the celestial pole -- around which the heavens visually turn. All of the ancient world looked upon the polar centre as the "middle place," "resting place," or "steadfast region" occupied by the Universal Monarch.
One of the first writers to recognize the pole as the special domain of the great god was W. F. Warren, who wrote in Paradise Found (published in 1885): "The religions of all ancient nations ... associate the abode of the supreme God with the North Pole, the centre of heaven; or with the celestial space immediately surrounding it. [Yet] no writer on comparative theology has ever brought out the facts which establish this assertion."
In the following years a number of scholars, each focusing on different bodies of evidence, reached the same conclusion. The controversial and erratic Gerald Massey, in two large works (The Natural Genesis and Ancient Egypt), claimed that the religion and mythology of a polar god was first formulated by the priest-astronomers of ancient Egypt and spread from Egypt to the rest of the world. In a general survey of ancient language, symbolism, and mythology, John O'Neill (The Night of the Gods) insisted that mankind's oldest religion centered on a god of the celestial pole.
Zelia Nuttall, in Fundamental Principles of Old and New World Civilizations, undertook an extensive review of ancient Mexican astronomy, concluding that the highest god was polar. From Mexico she shifted to other civilizations, finding the same unexpected role of a polar god.
Reinforcing the surprising conclusions of the above researchers was the subsequent work of others, among them Uno Holberg (Der Baum des Lebens), who documented the preeminence of the polar god in the ritual of Altaic and neighbouring peoples, suggesting ancient origins in Hindu and Mesopotamian cosmologies; (2)Leopold de Saussure (Les Origines de l'Astronomie Chinoise), who showed that primitive Chinese religion and astronomy honour the celestial pole as the home of the supreme god; Rene Guenon (Le Roi du Monde and Le Symbolisme de la Croix), who sought to outline a universal doctrine centering on the polar gods and principles of ancient man.
That these and other researchers, each starting down a different path, arrived at much the same conclusion concerning a supreme polar god of antiquity should have been sufficient to provoke a reappraisal of long-standing assumptions. Is it possible that, as these writers claimed, the ancient star-worshippers paid greater heed to a god of the pole than to the solar orb? Rather than respond to the question, solar mythologists diplomatically ignored it, thereby assigning the above investigators to an undeserved obscurity.
I want to reopen the question, but to approach it from a different perspective. Most of the aforementioned writers possessed a common -- if unspoken -- faith in the ceaseless regularity of the solar system, seeking to explain the polar god in strictly familiar terms: the centre of our revolving heavens is the celestial pole; the great god of the centre and summit must have been the star closest to this cosmic pivot.
But as observed in the previous pages, the great father was not a mere "star"; he was the planet Saturn, recalled as the preeminent light of the heavens. Moreover, the Saturn myth states that the planet-god resided at the celestial pole!(3)
In the myth and astronomy of many lands Saturn's connection with the pole is direct and unequivocal. Chinese astronomers designated the celestial pole as "the Pivot," identifying the "Genie of the Pivot" as the planet Saturn.(4) Saturn was believed to have his seat at the pole, reports G. Schlegel.(5) This strange and unexplained image of Saturn caught the attention of de Saussure (one of the foremost experts on Chinese astronomy), who added an additional startling fact: the Iranian Kevan, the planet Saturn, also occupies the polar centre.(6)
But the theme is older than Chinese or Iranian tradition, for it finds its first expression in the Sumero-Babylonian An (Anu), the highest god, acknowledged as the planet Saturn. Each evening, at Erech, the priests looked to the celestial pole, beginning their prayer with the words, "O star if Anu, prince of the heavens."(7)
Saturn ruled from the summit of the world axis.(8) I must note, however, that I am not the first to observe this general principle. A recent volume by Giorgio de Santillana and Hertha von Dechend, entitled Hamlet's Mill, offers the revolutionary conclusion that according to an ancient doctrine Saturn occupied the celestial pole.
"Logic is the art of non-contradictory identification"......" I am therefore Ill think"
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Re: The Published Materials...

Unread postby davesmith_au » Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:15 pm

Plasmatic, do you have a source for that quote??

Cheers, Dave Smith.
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Re: The Published Materials...

Unread postby Plasmatic » Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:36 pm

Oops , THE SATURN MYTH by Dave Talbott
"Logic is the art of non-contradictory identification"......" I am therefore Ill think"
Ayn Rand
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Re: The Published Materials...

Unread postby seasmith » Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:00 pm

Plasmatic wrote:


Oops , THE SATURN MYTH by Dave Talbott


Published 28 years ago, and i've read "Thunderbolts of the Gods", but my question to Dave is in the current context of sources cited above.
I'm not trying to be contentious or contrary. Merely seeking a common framework of observations and theories to save a lot of back and forth in our discussion and comparative analysis of the "Origins of Myth".

Sincere thanks for the pertinent quote Plas,

s
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Re: The Published Materials...

Unread postby Plasmatic » Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:10 am

Ill let Dave speak for himself ,but I think youll find that the Mytho historical records are not what has changed .they are what they are . But Id expect simply the interpretations of aspects of planets that where called " clouds of gas and dust" would now be called plasma filaments. Simply a replacement or insertion of plasma were there wasnt before. But all the Perrat papers and sfov in the world arent going to change the actual recorded memories.We can only discover the ancints words and symbols. What the 2 differences mean .. well thats another story...Pole change , lost references maybe some nfov glyphs not discovered , well see I guess.....But Im interested as any in Daves own perspective beyond what little Ive heard on the subject.
"Logic is the art of non-contradictory identification"......" I am therefore Ill think"
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Re: The Published Materials...

Unread postby David Talbott » Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:42 am

Regarding the "polar" station of the great luminary early astronomers identified as Saturn:

I gave the benefit of the doubt to the north celestial pole, while emphasizing over the years that ancient language itself does not permit you to distinguish between north, south, east or west in translations of early texts. The language of modern geographic directions came relatively late. The original language arose from COSMOGRAPHY, based primarily on relative positions of celestial bodies and the unique formations around them in the celestial theater. Right and left, above and below (supplemented by "extreme below," which I'll have to explain), upper and lower, front and back, base and summit, center (axis, axle) and boundary, inside and outside, etc. Eventually these words describing relative positions were applied to the sacred directions of kingdom on earth, which quickly confused the picture. Geographically, "up" and "down" do not have the same references in Egypt and Mesopotamia, for example, despite the fact that the original directional language of the two cultures is surprisingly consistent.

One reason the Pyramid Texts now appear to be largely gibberish is the habit of translators in using familiar geographic interpretations rather than the original, more literal meanings of words. "Left, " the region of celestial "growing bright" in the daily cycle, will be translated as east, and the literal "growing bright" of the primeval sun will be translated as rising; and the literal mountain of fire and light, reaching upward to the center of heaven, will be translated as horizon.

And there you have it. "Ra rises in the eastern horizon." The translation is simple and obvious, except for the fact that it can only lead to contradictions and cannot be correct. :)

So where did the formations being documented by Anthony Peratt originate? It may surprise those who've begun to follow Peratt's independent investigation to know that when I first forwarded to him a set of images including the now-famous "chain of arrows," "backbone of the sky (ladder of heaven)," and "eye mask," I stated in no uncertain terms that these formations were seen in the south. They all belong to a phase (phases, really) that I called "displacement" or "wandering."

Therefore, the issue as to where the station of the original polar sun might have been can remain open. When Manilius said of Saturn that the god was "thrown down to the opposite end of the world axis," it could be that he left a telling clue as to the god's original location.

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Re: The Published Materials...

Unread postby seasmith » Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:10 pm

Dave T wrote:

“Therefore, the issue as to where the station of the original polar sun might have been can remain open.”


Thank you for that. I agree, it is probably wise to start from that flexible perspective.

As an aside, I would also entertain the possibility that the ‘near polar’ asterisms portrayed on the famous Egyptian carved stone relief called the Circular Zodiac of Denderah [now in the Louvre] may serve as ~post-Ages of Chaos ‘markers’, for some proto-Saturnian configurations originally seen in that portion of the sky, wherever that portion was relative to the cardinal directions of today.

A decent drawing and description of the Denderah relief may be found in Charles Dupuis’ “The Origin of all Religious Worship” pub.1872 (available on Amazon).

The center portion is pictured below:

Image

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:cEQOD7ptA90J:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendera_Zodiac+ZODIAC+OF+DENDERAH&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=15&gl=us

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The Published Materials...

Unread postby MGmirkin » Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:06 pm

Would it be helpful to point to the abstract & excerpts from Dwardu Cardona's "THE DEMANDS OF THE SATURNIAN CONFIGURATION THEORY"?

(The Demands of the Saturnian Configuration Theory; Introduction / abstract)
http://www.sis-group.org.uk/silver/cardona.htm

(THE DEMANDS OF THE SATURNIAN CONFIGURATION THEORY; Thoth: Vol. III, No. 17, Dec 15, 1999)
http://www.kronia.com/thoth/ThoIII17.txt

(THE DEMANDS OF THE SATURNIAN CONFIGURATION THEORY: Part II; Thoth: Vol. III, No. 18, Dec 31 1999)
http://www.kronia.com/thoth/ThoIII18.txt

(THE DEMANDS OF THE SATURNIAN CONFIGURATION THEORY: Part III; Thoth: Vol. IV, No. 1, Jan 15, 2000)
http://www.kronia.com/thoth/ThotIV01.txt

(THE DEMANDS OF THE SATURNIAN CONFIGURATION THEORY: Part IV; Thoth: Vol. IV, No. 2, Jan 31, 2000)
http://www.kronia.com/thoth/ThotIV02.txt

A fairly interesting read. :) Granted, his much more recent books God Star and Flare Star are undoubtedly far more interesting and a bit more expansive treatments of the topic.

Or perhaps even Dave's own summary exegesis?

(SATURN THEORY, OVERVIEW [Parts 1-5])
http://www.kronia.com/saturn/satheory.txt

For those interested in a fair bit of reading to get their initial bearings on some "prior art," as it were.

Cheers,
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Re: The Published Materials...

Unread postby JoeTB » Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:03 pm

So how did we survive going through the plasmasphere to orbit the sun all alone, if we were inside the envelope of Saturn before? One thing mentioned was that life on planets in the atmosphere of dwarfs wouldn't see stars and might never leave or maybe wouldn't be able to escape
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Re: The Published Materials...

Unread postby MGmirkin » Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:56 am

JoeTB wrote:So how did we survive [...]


I think the answer by a few has been "just barely..." ;)

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Caves, submerged cities, etc.

Unread postby MGmirkin » Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:26 am

MGmirkin wrote:
JoeTB wrote:So how did we survive [...]


I think the answer by a few has been "just barely..." ;)

~Michael


Now, if it were just me, I might have tended to rather quickly become a largely cave-dweller overnight... Put as much solid rock between me and the bad stuff as possible, hope it's enough. Heh.

There does seem to be some evidence of ancient cultures using caves for various purposes, or incising living spaces into hewn stone walls. Though I'd not care to speculate on whether such was a "survival tactic" or simply something their culture enjoyed or was good at in general.

Anyway, there also does seem to be considerable evidence that sea levels were considerably lower in the past. Rising sea levels appear to have "hidden" quite a bit of our past from us by submerging ancient cities and even a few caves that have been used by ancient cultures. It'll be interesting to see if such things ever yield interesting archaeological results that might shed light on those cultures, how the perished or migrated elsewhere, etc.

(Underwater caves housing ancient artifacts from extinct cultures?)
http://store.aetv.com/html/product/index.jhtml?id=74162
http://store.aetv.com/html/product/index.jhtml?id=73832
http://store.aetv.com/html/product/index.jhtml?id=74203

(Underwater pyramids off Japan?)
http://www.cyberspaceorbit.com/phikent/ ... apan2.html

(Yup! NG says so!)
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... -city.html

In any event. Things aren't quite as they seem. It becomes readily apparent that at some point in the not-too-distant past there have been catastrophes that have raised the sea levels, submerged ancient cities and ritual sites {?} (I hesitate to use the term "sacred sites," as that tends to have a bit more of a "mystical" connotation than is necessary).

But, perhaps this line of inquiry would again best be suited to a separate thread (there used to be one in the planetary science forum on "Thunderbolts Forum 1.0," perhaps I'll fork this over there and restart it)...

Cheers,
~Michael Gmirkin

Addendum: I've forked this topic over to the Planetary Science forum. If anyone has a response for this particular post, feel free to follow up on it over there, so as not to divert this thread off onto tangents. *Irony noted* :D
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Re: The Published Materials...

Unread postby JoeTB » Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:29 pm

Is it still unclear whether the polar station was in the north or the south?

If so, why is it not considered that the south of our planet is like the side of the moon that faces us all of the time?

Just comparing the two alone has caused me to ask "Why is our planet like that, when we don't face anything in the south?". "We used to" would be a good answer.
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Re: The Published Materials...

Unread postby redeye » Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:37 am

If so, why is it not considered that the south of our planet is like the side of the moon that faces us all of the time?


Good question. How long was the Earth in the shadow of Saturn and would it be long enough for our planet to become tidally locked? I don't think there is another example of a planetoid becoming tidally locked at the North or South pole (usually equatorial, I don't know how the process would work in a polar configuration).

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Re: The Published Materials...

Unread postby David Talbott » Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:07 am

Hello joeTB and redeye,

Here's the practical problem. The questions you pose must indeed be confronted, but the best answers to the questions will come from an answer to the question, "What was seen in the ancient sky?"

Until the reconstruction is reasonably defined in terms of a visual reconstruction, along with the corresponding mythic archetypes, there's too much ground for guessing at answers.

But please don't misunderstand. The questions are completely legitimate, and should be kept in mind as the archetypes themselves are elaborated over the months to follow.

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