Recovered: Is the universe a living organism?

[bboyer]

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 8:52 pm Post subject: Life, the Universe and Everything
OP "Steve Smith"

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Thanks for the kind words.

Even though I am rapidly growing old, "Mr." was my Dad's title. Please feel free to call me, "Steve".

I was a theologian for almost 35 years. About 3 years ago, some kind of local maxima developed in my mind and my understanding jumped to another level. At that time, all of my theological presuppositions vanished and I found that I no longer "believed" in anything. It was then that I was open enough to alternatives that I could escape my fear of death\oblivion and accept the universe for what I could experience, rather than for what I hoped.

I desire a rational life, now, unencumbered by wishful thinking. Because of that change, the universe is not so mysterious to me, anymore. It isn't complex and arcane, it is mundane. The universe is the most rational thing that there is, since it is what we are. It only appears mysterious because of the delay in apprehension by the observer and not because it is "hiding" from us.

All that the universe is is on display, right before our eyes. It is our "eyes wide shut" that cause the problems....

Steve

[bboyer]

Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 2:28 am Post subject: Re: Life, the Universe and Everything
OP "Krackonis"

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Thanks for the kind words.

Even though I am rapidly growing old, "Mr." was my Dad's title. Please feel free to call me, "Steve".

I was a theologian for almost 35 years. About 3 years ago, some kind of local maxima developed in my mind and my understanding jumped to another level. At that time, all of my theological presuppositions vanished and I found that I no longer "believed" in anything. It was then that I was open enough to alternatives that I could escape my fear of death\oblivion and accept the universe for what I could experience, rather than for what I hoped.

I desire a rational life, now, unencumbered by wishful thinking. Because of that change, the universe is not so mysterious to me, anymore. It isn't complex and arcane, it is mundane. The universe is the most rational thing that there is, since it is what we are. It only appears mysterious because of the delay in apprehension by the observer and not because it is "hiding" from us.

All that the universe is is on display, right before our eyes. It is our "eyes wide shut" that cause the problems....

Steve

I do understand that type of epiphany myself. However, I find that it is more interesting to come to terms to what our minds may have been like (or might be like) under a plasma display very close, and the large glowing electric currents affecting our minds in a positive way.

Maybe to the point of bringing some sense to the language before the Tower of Babel. "One language, few words".
_________________
Neil Thompson

Krackonis

"We are the universe, trying to understand itself."
- Delenn

[bboyer]

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 6:46 pm Post subject:
OP "mgmirkin"

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Okay, I get it. Seems to come down to those pesky notions of an intelligent and/or conscious universe. Thanks for clarifying.

Well, a thing doesn't necessarily have to be "intelligent" to be alive... Not that I'm necessarily advocating the "living universe" idea. All just speculation anyway...

I think the thing here is certain morphological similarities between things we can see on the micro scale and things we can see on the macro scale, and possibly scales in between.

So the logical jump (whether fallacious or not) is made: If we can see the same structures on the micro scale and the macro scale, and we can ASSUME that some force acts in much the same way ACROSS SCALES, is it possible that what we see can form even larger macro-structures, and possibly even some larger "life" (orders of magnitude larger, of course.)

It's hard to say. And whether said life would be "intelligent" is a whole other question. IE, it could be something as simple and self-replicating as proteins or bacteria. Not necessarily higher order life like diatoms, fish, sharks or something humanoid...

I guess the question is whether "stuff" acting the same on the large scale is capable or self-arranging / self-replicating just like the structures on the small scale. Of course, then we might end up getting into the topic of the Holographic Universe, which is a completely "other" topic...

http://www.crystalinks.com/holographic.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle
http://twm.co.nz/hologram.html

Last edited by mgmirkin on Mon May 21, 2007 7:44 pm; edited 1 time in total

[bboyer]

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 7:42 pm Post subject:
OP "Klar DC"

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Some authors of interest about living universe are Willis Harman and Elisabeth Sahtouris (Biology Revisioned, North Atlantic Books), and Mae-Wan Ho (The Rainbow and the Worm - the Physics of Organisms, World Scientific Publishing). Obligatory reading for electric biologists. Yes, biology can surely go with UE theory toward an understanding of an unified cosmos that mirrors itself onto man rather than the contrary.

Hgs.
MK.

[bboyer]

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 7:54 pm Post subject:
OP "Klar DC"

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And following this train of thoughts...

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stor ... 924821.htm

Hgs.
M Klar.

[bboyer]

Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:38 pm Post subject:
OP "mgmirkin"

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Addendum:
http://www.world-science.net/othernews/070814_dust.htm

See also these two threads, where similar ideas are discussed (the conversation is slightly fragmented)...

<deleted old forum links no longer valid>

Cheers,
~Michael Gmirkin

[bboyer]

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:42 am Post subject:
OP "Krackonis"

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I would think it is quite a possiblity:

To the left we have Neurons from a mouse, on the right, a Dark Matter Diagram...
_________________
Neil Thompson

Krackonis

"We are the universe, trying to understand itself."
- Delenn

[bboyer]

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:31 am Post subject:
OP "upriver"

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I was told that any collection of parts can host a consciousness.

The Universe is a particularly large collection of parts.

I was also told that the "Information Superhighway of the Universe", are the plasma strands(filaments) that most matter is embedded in.

If you listen(?) carefully there is a Universal Switch board that you can connect to. They use symbols in your minds eye. Its weird, its like you can see them plain as day but they are not really there.

So yes, the universe would have to be alive. We are.
_________________
Ron Paul Forum.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/index.php

SOS Save Our Science.

[bboyer]

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:15 pm Post subject:
OP "Michael Mozina"

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I would think it is quite a possiblity:

<snip>

To the left we have Neurons from a mouse, on the right, a Dark Matter Diagram...

IMO, part of the problem with astronomy today is that the field is dominated by atheists. It's a pity IMO.

The answer to that question IMO is "yes", the universe is certainly alive and aware of us, even if we are not aware of it.

[bboyer]

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:51 pm Post subject:
OP "mgmirkin"

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I was told that any collection of parts can host a consciousness.

Hmm, so 3 LEGO blocks (quite inert), connected together, can host a consciousness?

Perhaps not... (Just playing s game of Devil's Advocate)

~Michael

[bboyer]

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:32 am Post subject: Is the Universe..........
OP "SeaSmith"

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Well said Steve.

Now if we could just get a handle on that 'pesky Consciousness thing"....
_________________
weirdweallcomefrom

[bboyer]

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:25 am Post subject:
OP "Discipline"

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Michael Mozina,

IMO, part of the problem with astronomy today is that the field is dominated by atheists. It's a pity IMO.

So you have to be religious to do accurate physics?
_________________
"Prove black is white and white is black and go out and get yourself killed on a pedestrian crossing." ~Douglas Adams

[bboyer]

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:57 am Post subject:
OP "upriver"

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I was told that any collection of parts can host a consciousness.

Hmm, so 3 LEGO blocks (quite inert), connected together, can host a consciousness?

Perhaps not... (Just playing s game of Devil's Advocate)

~Michael

When your younger you play around with meditation and out of body stuff. You get to a point of where your kind of tuned in and you can sorta ask questions. Like a baby can sorta ask questions.

I wish I knew the exact rules. I think it takes more than three pieces and it helps if they are moving....Cars are a perfect example for some reason(not all).
_________________
Ron Paul Forum.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/index.php

SOS Save Our Science.

[bboyer]

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:38 pm Post subject:
OP "Michael Mozina"

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Michael Mozina,

IMO, part of the problem with astronomy today is that the field is dominated by atheists. It's a pity IMO.

So you have to be religious to do accurate physics?

Of course not. The problem however is that an electric universe not only goes against everything that the mainstream currently believes in on a scientific level, it also opens up the possibility that the universe itself is alive and aware. Astronomers as a whole tend to be more atheistic than any other particular community. An electric universe more or less blows away all of the scientific mainstream belief systems, it also calls into question all the "meaning of life" issues of anyone who also happens to be an atheist.

A universe made of couple of Lego blocks may not ever achieve consciousness, but hundreds of trillions of interlaced electrical circuits can and might achieve awareness, intelligence and consciousness as our human brains can attest.

[bboyer]

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:47 pm Post subject:
OP "Pfhoenix"

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"Train wreck" is a phrase that definitively applies to this thread. It should also have not been started in this part of the forum. <MOD NOTE: thread was originally posted in the Electric Universe section; has been recovered to The Human Question section>

The EU model does not in any way mean that the universe is alive. Electricity is a purely mechanical process; consciousness is not.

To make the statement that astronomers (or scientists in general) shouldn't be atheist is like saying "only God knows the Truth". You make plain your personal bias and demonstrate an inability for critical thought. When I discovered Eric Lerner's book, I didn't find my "meaning of life issues" challenged in any way. Substituting one faith for another doesn't get you anywhere (just look at all the technological progress that the BBT has lead to, i.e. none).

The universe itself is neither alive nor aware. It simply Is. This is the sort of thing that people interested in the EU model need to be wary of - pseudoscience finding a new jacket of plasma physics.
_________________
"Wisdom is Knowledge tempered through Experience." - Me
"Abstract math seems to be the lubricant for hammering square pegs into round holes." - Unknown