Science’s Looming ‘Tipping Point’ (Thornhill/Holoscience)

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Science’s Looming ‘Tipping Point’ (Thornhill/Holoscience)

Unread post by Phorce » Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:34 am

Brilliant article, all good. But I disagree a little with this part ...
The Sun is the tipping point, the point of departure from old big bang cosmology. Rees writes in the introduction to his book, “Gravity, almost undetectable between laboratory-scale bodies
I wonder if Ree's is quite clever at stating things for those with eye's to see within the restraints of his current role ? Here he seems to hint at the relatively weak nature of the gravitational force.
...is the dominant force in astronomy and cosmology.
I notice he says "that dominant force in astronomy and cosmology, and not "the dominant force in The Universe".
The basic structures in our cosmic environment – stars, galaxies, and clusters of galaxies – all involve a balance between gravitational attraction and the disruptive effect of pressure or kinetic energy.” Three things stand out immediately. First, gravity is the weakest force in the universe.
In fact, he seemed to suggest that it is the weakest.
Second, gravity is not understood. And third, although magnetic fields are detected on the Sun and everywhere in space, there is no mention of the necessary generative electric currents in plasma, which constitutes 99.999 per cent of the visible universe! This is a doctrinaire failure to notice the obvious.
This a certainly valid but I wonder if Ree's is really the worst culprit ?

The following excerpt is just astounding to me and pulls together so many questions, observations and "anomalies" that I have encountered over the years.
Also, the birth of plentiful brown dwarf stars and smaller bodies in proximity along an electrical umbilical cord provides the opportunity for capture by bright stars to form planetary systems. Capture is greatly enhanced by electrical energy exchange where the cross-section for capture is that of a star’s huge electrical boundary, called the heliosphere (~200 AU wide), or ‘astrosphere.’ Brown dwarfs captured by a bright star will have their power source stolen, lose their radiance and become gas giants. This explains a mystery known as the ‘brown dwarf desert,’ around main sequence stars.

The capture process of a brown dwarf involves drastic electrical readjustment from being an anode to a cathode, which the captured star achieves by a cometary-type electrical expulsion of matter from its heavy-element core and atmosphere, forming satellites and rings. Some of the expelled debris escapes to become families of comets, asteroids and meteoroids. It is a process entirely analogous to the observed electrical splitting of comet nuclei, often as they too approach the Sun.

The applicability of this model to the solar system is obvious with the distant gas giants sporting rings and many satellites. Saturn, with its spectacular ring system, appears to be the most recently captured. The inner planets are satellites lost to the gas giants/former dwarf stars. Astronomers have recently begun to suggest that the environment close to a dwarf star is conducive to life. But there is far more to this idea in an Electric Universe. So the Sun’s weird assortment of planets and their satellites are an adopted family and not primordial. Comparing gyroscopically stable axial tilts may show some familial associations. Significantly, Saturn, Mars and Earth seem related via this hypothesis.

Gravitational systems are essentially chaotic because orbital perturbations are not corrected. With intruders upsetting the solar system the obvious question is how come the planets move like clockwork? It is important that an effective ‘damping’ mechanism operates to enforce order in the solar system.
I find the psychological and sociological aspects to be very welcome here. As huge as the suggestions are they do lend themselves to contextualising so much about our experience here on Earth. So much up until now has simply not made sense. This Science, if real, and I dare say some of it will turn out to be, is so badly needed in a world where some of us have been in danger of almost completely losing our way.

So, is this the currently accepted scenario ...

1. Earth/Mars were planets around our former star, Saturn.

2. Capture by our current star (The Sun) ramps down the former stars current, eventually creating Saturn in its current (non star) form..

3. Due to these changes a cataclysm effects Earth and Mars, almost completely destroying a former, possibly technological, civilisation on Mars and Earth, ref: Cydonia and why it seems so alien and yet so familiar. Yet Mars and Earth do survive due to the orbit arranging nature of EM/EU/Plasma as we see in Exoplanet discoveries.

4. As a result of the capture, and as the orbits settle down, visible EM phenomena in the sky are recorded by the survivors (petroglyphs, mythology).

5. Some survivors of this former civilisation are tasked with preserving important human knowledge for healing, healthy societies, etc. via the perennial philosophy passed down through the ages; sacred geometry, and other systems of preserving knowledge. This is why some of the deductions made from possible Cydonia ruins match up with current human knowledge, because that knowledge was originally human before the star capture, hence the Face.

This is SO HUGE I must admit I find myself going into paroxysms of incredulity and then forgetting the whole thing. But something compels me to come back. So much of what has never made sense to me DOES make sense when I figure this cosmology in. I wonder if Douglas Adams was responding to the same feeling - of something being out of place - in his Hitch-hikers Guide to the Galaxy.

Don't Panic.
Exploration and discovery without honest investigation of "extraordinary" results leads to a Double Bind (Bateson, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bind ) that creates loss of hope and depression. No more Double Binds !

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Re: Science’s Looming ‘Tipping Point’ (Thornhill/Holoscience

Unread post by 601L1n9FR09 » Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:50 am

That's the first helpful or intelligible thing anybody's said to me all day."

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Re: Science’s Looming ‘Tipping Point’ (Thornhill/Holoscience

Unread post by Phorce » Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:33 am

I left out the link to the article I quote from, so here it is.
Exploration and discovery without honest investigation of "extraordinary" results leads to a Double Bind (Bateson, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bind ) that creates loss of hope and depression. No more Double Binds !

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Re: Science’s Looming ‘Tipping Point’ (Thornhill/Holoscience

Unread post by nick c » Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:15 am

Phorce wrote:Due to these changes a cataclysm effects Earth and Mars, almost completely destroying a former, possibly technological, civilisation on Mars and Earth, ref: Cydonia and why it seems so alien and yet so familiar.
I know that Thornhill has written that Mars came out of the series of catastrophes as a dead/dying world and may have previously been more hospitable. But where has he written that there may have been a former technological civilization on Mars?
Do you have a link for this?

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Re: Science’s Looming ‘Tipping Point’ (Thornhill/Holoscience

Unread post by Phorce » Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:45 am

I do not have a link. The numbered sequence scenario in my post includes my interpretation. I think Talbott/Thornhill et al have encountered the Cydonia research before but the only comment I could find is from 1998 which is before a lot of the more recent research came out about Cydonia and possible structures analysed in Moon photos. This is cited in the books by Hoagland/Bara/Enterprise Mission; Dark Mission and The Monuments of Mars. I have been following this area of research since ~2001 and have studied the evidence closely which is compelling. For example also see the book The Case for the Face. That evidence was extremely difficult for me to handle until I really started understanding the alternative history of our solar system vis'a'vis EU/Plasma Cosmology. From that standpoint it becomes much clearer why there might be intelligently designed ruins on Mars, the Moon and possibly other planets in the Solar System.
Exploration and discovery without honest investigation of "extraordinary" results leads to a Double Bind (Bateson, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bind ) that creates loss of hope and depression. No more Double Binds !

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Re: Science’s Looming ‘Tipping Point’ (Thornhill/Holoscience

Unread post by nick c » Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:04 am

Phorce,
Discussion of the "face" on Mars as an artifact of a Martian civilization is not considered to be an appropriate topic for the "Electric Universe" board. The EU position, as I understand it, is that the surface of Mars was so extensively electrically carved and excavated that all features presently observed are explainable in that context.

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Re: Science’s Looming ‘Tipping Point’ (Thornhill/Holoscience

Unread post by justcurious » Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:13 pm

nick c wrote:Phorce,
Discussion of the "face" on Mars as an artifact of a Martian civilization is not considered to be an appropriate topic for the "Electric Universe" board. The EU position, as I understand it, is that the surface of Mars was so extensively electrically carved and excavated that all features presently observed are explainable in that context.
I disagree. I think it's worth discussing and I find it pertinent. The EU view is probably in the best position to demystify geometric shapes on planets being interpreted as "made by aliens". The standard model cosmologists certainly don't have the answers. People should know that there are true scientists in the world who might be able explain these phenomena. If you ask me, alien civilizations are more believable than the big bang. IMO making the subject taboo for no other reason than "it''s a conspiracy theory" is a missed opportunity for the EU community to address the concerns and curiosities of millions of people.

As you can see, your "policing" actions and slapping people on the wrist (wrongfully) has effectively killed this thread. Just like it killed my enthusiasm when you accused me (wrongfully) of perpetuating conspiracy theories the other day after I spent hours trying to find videos of lunar flashes to share with everyone. Please stop it.

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Re: Science’s Looming ‘Tipping Point’ (Thornhill/Holoscience

Unread post by D_Archer » Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:57 am

justcurious wrote:
nick c wrote:Phorce,
Discussion of the "face" on Mars as an artifact of a Martian civilization is not considered to be an appropriate topic for the "Electric Universe" board. The EU position, as I understand it, is that the surface of Mars was so extensively electrically carved and excavated that all features presently observed are explainable in that context.
I disagree. I think it's worth discussing and I find it pertinent. The EU view is probably in the best position to demystify geometric shapes on planets being interpreted as "made by aliens". The standard model cosmologists certainly don't have the answers. People should know that there are true scientists in the world who might be able explain these phenomena. If you ask me, alien civilizations are more believable than the big bang. IMO making the subject taboo for no other reason than "it''s a conspiracy theory" is a missed opportunity for the EU community to address the concerns and curiosities of millions of people.

As you can see, your "policing" actions and slapping people on the wrist (wrongfully) has effectively killed this thread. Just like it killed my enthusiasm when you accused me (wrongfully) of perpetuating conspiracy theories the other day after I spent hours trying to find videos of lunar flashes to share with everyone. Please stop it.
It could probably be discussed in the planetary science board, but not in this thread, i think that was 'mostly' the point of Nick C's post.

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Daniel
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Re: Science’s Looming ‘Tipping Point’ (Thornhill/Holoscience

Unread post by nick c » Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:26 am

justcurious,
I disagree.
That is entirely your option.
I think it's worth discussing and I find it pertinent.
Then discuss it on the appropriate board, not here. The subject matter to be covered on the "Electric Universe" board and the "Electric Universe - Planetary Science" board is not determined by what forum members decide is pertinent to the Electric Universe but rather by what the founders and administrators of this forum have determined to be pertinent. As a moderator I am not arbitrarily determining these guidelines, but am following instructions given to me by the owners and administrators of this forum. The upper boards are for the discussion of published literature of EU theorists, why is that so difficult to understand? Nowhere have I read in "The Electric Sky" or the Holoscience site or TPOD's or Thunderblogs etc. etc. any support for the premise that there is evidence of a past advanced civilization on Mars, so therefore it is not an appropriate topic for the Electric Universe or Electric Universe - Planetary Science boards. It is really as simple as that.
Please read:
For the most part, discussion is to be restricted to published materials with some relevance to Electric Universe and Plasma Cosmology themes, and related scientific information. Having said that, this forum affords more latitude than most, assuming most users will allow common sense to guide them. For those who wish to discuss topics closer to the fringes, please restrict your discussions to the 'New Insights and Mad Ideas' or 'The Human Question' boards. Please note, that even on these boards discussion still must bear some relevance to EU/PC themes. This is not the place for wild speculation or conspiracy theories, and there are many other forums suitable for that purpose.

http://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum/phpB ... p?f=11&t=4
Just like it killed my enthusiasm when you accused me (wrongfully) of perpetuating conspiracy theories the other day after I spent hours trying to find videos of lunar flashes to share with everyone. Please stop it.
Sorry for being a wet blanket, please refer to the above paragraph for the reasons why this is necessary. The video you refer to was shown to be posted by a YouTuber that specializes in special effects such as faked UFO's.

Furthermore, if there are ruins of a past advanced civilization on Mars then it follows that there is a conspiracy by NASA to repress this information. They are two sides of the same coin, and neither subject is appropriate for this board or this thread.

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Re: Science’s Looming ‘Tipping Point’ (Thornhill/Holoscience

Unread post by Phorce » Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:32 am

I understand. I know how difficult it can be to moderate forums. That's one of the reasons I come here because thunderbolts is moderated. The problem with so many conspiracy and new age forums is that they have very little moderation and therefore can have a serious signal to noise problem. So, nick c, I'll be more careful in future with choosing which forum to post in. I would have no problem if you want to move this thread to 'New Insights and Mad Ideas'. Cheers.
Exploration and discovery without honest investigation of "extraordinary" results leads to a Double Bind (Bateson, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bind ) that creates loss of hope and depression. No more Double Binds !

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Re: Science’s Looming ‘Tipping Point’ (Thornhill/Holoscience

Unread post by MGmirkin » Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:28 pm

nick c wrote:Phorce,
Discussion of the "face" on Mars as an artifact of a Martian civilization is not considered to be an appropriate topic for the "Electric Universe" board. The EU position, as I understand it, is that the surface of Mars was so extensively electrically carved and excavated that all features presently observed are explainable in that context.
Generally agreed here... HiRISE site says it best:
HiRISE captured this image (in 2007) of an eroded mesa made famous by its similarity to a human face in a Viking Orbiter image with much lower spatial resolution and a different lighting geometry.

Compared to the original Viking image, HiRISE shows incredible detail, even from 300 kilometers above the surface.
http://www.uahirise.org/PSP_003234_2210

Looking at the thing itself in basically high resolution... It's pretty much NOTHING LIKE A FACE. It's just a weird hill that once had a picture taken with couple oddly placed shadows. Sorry to anyone who thinks otherwise. It was a nice story to tell to kids while all we had were grainy poorly lit photos. The harsh light of day & high resolution imaging pretty well kills the myth deader'n a doornail.

http://hirise-pds.lpl.arizona.edu/PDS/E ... browse.jpg

As always, no offense intended, just gotta' keep things real & on the up and up, as it were.

Cheers,
~MG
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Re: Science’s Looming ‘Tipping Point’ (Thornhill/Holoscience

Unread post by MGmirkin » Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:57 pm

Phorce wrote:So, is this the currently accepted scenario ...

1. Earth/Mars were planets around our former star, Saturn.

2. Capture by our current star (The Sun) ramps down the former stars current, eventually creating Saturn in its current (non star) form..

3. Due to these changes a cataclysm effects Earth and Mars, almost completely destroying a former, possibly technological, civilisation on Mars and Earth, ref: Cydonia and why it seems so alien and yet so familiar. Yet Mars and Earth do survive due to the orbit arranging nature of EM/EU/Plasma as we see in Exoplanet discoveries.

4. As a result of the capture, and as the orbits settle down, visible EM phenomena in the sky are recorded by the survivors (petroglyphs, mythology).

5. Some survivors of this former civilisation are tasked with preserving important human knowledge for healing, healthy societies, etc. via the perennial philosophy passed down through the ages; sacred geometry, and other systems of preserving knowledge. This is why some of the deductions made from possible Cydonia ruins match up with current human knowledge, because that knowledge was originally human before the star capture, hence the Face.
1. "around" is a vague word. "In vicinity," yes. "Orbiting," no. Think beads on a long thin string. All bodies in a linear alignment rotating around the same long axis of rotation.

2. Far, far, far more complicated than this. Especially if you ask Dwardu Cardona, author of the "Star" series of books (God Star, Flare Star, Primordial Star, Metamorphic Star, and the forthcoming Radiant Star, I think, and probably a bunch more if time permits). Long epoch floating together inside Saturn's plasma sheath through interstellar space. At some point encounters and is captured by what we today call Sol or the Sun. At the point their plasma sheaths meet, touch and their electric potentials "see" each other, fireworks happen. Saturn system enters Sol's electrical domain, becomes a cathode rather than an anode (unclear whether due to actual switch of overall electrical 'sign' from overall positive charge to overall negative charge or simply due to Saturn being at a lower positive voltage, just throwing out a number say Sol = +1000, Saturn =+15, etc. Totally not right numbers, but hopefully you get what I mean, sort of?)... After the initial fireworks, things quiet down. Saturn system spirals very slowly inward toward Sun (unclear the length of time this inward spiral takes; 10's or 100's of thousands of years? Don't know. May never? Effectively "pre-historic."), this is the "Golden Age" alluded to in myth. {?} Eventually, though, the system truly destabilizes and all hell REALLY breaks loose. Thus begins the age of Gods and Monsters (of celestial / planetary nature, in he early mythologies). And clearly the mythologies themselves are chaotic... So, it'll take a long time to riddle it all out, if ever. Assuming the investigation ever really gets truly out of the gate and recognized as a "mainstream" field of legitimate "fundable" research, rather than relegated to the "undesirable" status of a "Velikovsian" / "neo-Velikovskian" "fringe science." (The typical "dismissive" words used to hand-wave away uncomfortable arguments.)

3. Cataclysms happen, "remembered" as "flood" / "apocalypse" stories. Won't comment on "advanced technological civilizations" other than "where's the HARD evidence?" See prior post on Cydonia. Modern high resolution imaging pretty thoroughly debunks the "face" as an artifact of poor imaging technology and a lucky shot with shadows in just the right funky position to give a funky optical illusion (in old grainy low resolution images). Today's images tell the true story. Truly not much to see. Nice story to amuse the kids with, but pretty much totally false on its "face."

4. Yeah, I'll go along with that. Eventually things settle into more regular orbits, we develop time-keeping methods and astronomical methods to track the departs "gods" (planets) in their wanderings, hoping they never come back, lest they visit destruction on us again. The stories are passed down orally for unknown length of time, "civilization" emerges from the chaos. Massive monuments are built to "appease" the huge crazy sky things in hopes they don't come back. Evetually it all falls into myth and legend, since the sky today looks nothing like it [is hypothesized to have] looked back then. "Naturalistic" explanations are attempted in order to "make sense" of the myths that otherwise make no sense because the original referents are no longer present in the sky doing what they were doing when the "myths" were originally generated. The "context" is gone, and the statements make no sense in terms of the "current" natural world. Hence the myths are discarded or viewed as the "primitive superstitions of people who didn't really have a firm grasp of the natural world." Or they play the "diaspora" or "diffusionism" card to explain why myths align all over the world.

5. More like, people were so complete traumatized by the events transpiring in the heavens they told about it, carved stuff on rocks, relived it, tried to control things however they could, etc. etc. We've been metaphorically reliving the trauma for millennia through myths, stories, art, religions, etc., etc.

I think that's more or less how things are seen through the neo-Velikovskian lens of the Electric Universe / Saturn Myth theories.

But, as always, more work yet to be done... And of course not everyone agrees on any or all aspects of said reconstruction. Folks with various ideas on the topic have come and gone. Some things are agreed on with a reasonable certainty, if only because of the nearly unanimous "testimony," if you will, of ancient cultures on certain points. Other things are less well-attested and thus up for considerably more debate.
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Re: Science’s Looming ‘Tipping Point’ (Thornhill/Holoscience

Unread post by Lloyd » Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:45 pm

Phorce wrote: So, is this the currently accepted scenario ...
Here's some of Dave Talbott's scenario (video):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVTS_8Kq_kY
Here's some of Dwardu Cardona's similar scenario (interview):
http://thunderbolts.info/wp/forum/phpBB3/v ... =10&t=3824
See this site's homepage for their books.
P: 1. Earth/Mars were planets around our former star, Saturn.
They didn't orbit around Saturn. They trailed behind Saturn in single file, like comet fragments, with Earth being the caboose. Saturn is thought to have been a brown dwarf star. These images of red Mars in front of white rayed Venus in front of dim Saturn are from Talbott's video, Alien Sky, above.
Image
Image
P: 2. Capture by our current star (The Sun) ramps down the former stars current, eventually creating Saturn in its current (non star) form.
MG: ... After the initial fireworks, things quiet down. Saturn system spirals very slowly inward toward Sun (unclear the length of time this inward spiral takes; 10's or 100's of thousands of years? ...
Cardona says the Saturn system entered the solar system about 10,000 BP (years before present) and that the system slowly spiraled inward to Saturn's or Jupiter's or the asteroid belt's present location, then the Saturn system broke up. The Golden Age of Saturn then would have lasted about 5,000 years till about 5,000 BP. I think Talbott is in general agreement. Cardona and Talbott developed their Saturn theories about the same time in the early 1970s independently after having heard about Velikovsky's original Saturn theory. I believe they were both surprised that the theory panned out, because it was so revolutionary. They found his theory about Venus and Mars encountering Earth in the first and second millennia BC did not pan out, though earlier encounters were possible.
P: 3. Due to these changes a cataclysm effects Earth and Mars, almost completely destroying a former, possibly technological, civilisation on Mars and Earth, ref: Cydonia and why it seems so alien and yet so familiar. Yet Mars and Earth do survive due to the orbit arranging nature of EM/EU/Plasma as we see in Exoplanet discoveries.
Ted Holden is one of the few Saturn theorists who thinks there was advanced civilization on Mars or Earth in ancient times. Most others seem doubtful, but open-minded. I think Holden thinks Mars civilization was destroyed when Saturn entered the solar system, if not before that. He may say that civilization on Earth came from Mars. Velikovsky had written an article suspecting that the Bible's mention of angels or giants (nephilim) coming down from heaven referred to giant people from Mars. Ted has interesting info here:
http://www.bearfabrique.org/Catastrophi ... donia.html
http://www.bearfabrique.org/History/index.htm
P: 4. As a result of the capture, and as the orbits settle down, visible EM phenomena in the sky are recorded by the survivors (petroglyphs, mythology).
The petroglyphs apparently preceded myths and seem to have occurred either just before the 10,000 BP event or before the 5,000 BP event, or both. Myths occurred mostly after the 5,000 BP event.
P: 5. Some survivors of this former civilisation are tasked with preserving important human knowledge for healing, healthy societies, etc. via the perennial philosophy passed down through the ages; sacred geometry, and other systems of preserving knowledge. This is why some of the deductions made from possible Cydonia ruins match up with current human knowledge, because that knowledge was originally human before the star capture, hence the Face.
Holden apparently still thinks the Face on Mars is artificial, but I'm not sure if he thinks philosophy derives from past human life on Mars. Grey Cloud is the only one I remember saying that philosophy preceded myths. But Talbott, Cardona et al think myths and philosophy derived from the Saturn configuration partly shown in the images above. Those images don't show the polar column (ladder to heaven) or the upper Earth (aurora), both of which apparently produced plasma phenomena that were thought to be giant humans and animals in the "after life" or heaven. Holden has a section discussing Julian Jaynes' theory about changes to human consciousness (people and animals may have had telepathy, but no independent thinking) not long before 2,000 BP, about the time that Gary Gilligan says the Sun finally turned from red to yellow. Gary said the Egyptians depicted the Sun and the planets as red, apparently because prior planetary encounters put a lot of dust in the inner solar system, which made a haze that darkened them, giving them reddish hues. Clube and Napier found that a lot of meteors caused problems on Earth till about that time, producing local cataclysms that interfered with Roman civilization etc.

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Re: Science’s Looming ‘Tipping Point’ (Thornhill/Holoscience

Unread post by orrery » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:48 pm

I find the alignment of the Pyramids in Cydonia to the Pleiades constellation, with the size of each pyramid correlating to the brightness of each star in the constellation shown in Wayne Hershel's work to be rather fascinating but I remain neutral on the topic.

http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/mars.htm

In either case, Martin Rees is a douchebag.
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