Gravity - Miles Mathis

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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comingfrom
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Re: Gravity - Miles Mathis

Unread post by comingfrom » Mon Feb 15, 2016 4:26 pm

My outstanding question with Mathis' theory is this;

Mathis attributes charge to density, or the amount of matter.
But I understand that matter can be charged.
So would a charged mass emit more charge than an uncharged mass?

For example, a cold planet with the same mass of the Sun compared to the Sun.
It seems to me, the Sun is charged, so should be emitting excess charge for its mass.

~~
I feel like Mathis' theory takes us a good step closer to understanding fields, but there are still levels of complexity he doesn't touch on.
For instance, he hasn't mentioned double layers, that I have read yet.

But I still have a fair bit to read.
Slowly does it :P
~Paul

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Re: Gravity - Miles Mathis

Unread post by Aardwolf » Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:08 am

querious wrote:Let's say you're right about my being wrong about Cavendish.
I am right. You already acknowledged it.
querious wrote:Does Miles argument that the gravity should be proportional to radii make sense to you? Do you really not see the obvious flaw?
Like I said I dont really subscribe to everything Mathis states. I'm more interested in pointing out the faults in your arguments against his critic of the mainstream theory, as these are also arguments used against the EU in general.

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Re: Gravity - Miles Mathis

Unread post by Aardwolf » Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:20 am

Chan Rasjid wrote:The balance has to be calibrated wherever it is used. Once calibrated, then its used is free of the local small g. On the moon, it again has to be calibrated there and again it would give G free of the small g, but the unit of force would be g dependent as force = mass x g. So it seems we have to trust that the torsion balance, after calibration, is capable to let us used it to measure the force of attraction between two small lead balls.
Care to explain what you are calibrating it to on the moon? Also, what part of the apparatus are you altering to calibrate it?

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Re: Gravity - Miles Mathis

Unread post by Aardwolf » Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:40 am

Chan Rasjid wrote:Till now, no one has cast any doubt on the Cavendish experiment.
I don't think anyone has cast doubt on it. It measures the relationship between an object of known mass against a much larger object of unknown mass and using the gravitation pull of the unknown mass (utilising an ingenious apparatus), detemines what the quantity of unknown mass is.

My doubt is cast on the belief that the experimental results are somehow independent of the large mass it's sitting on. The large mass it was specifically designed to measure the quantity of in the first place.

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Re: Gravity - Miles Mathis

Unread post by Aardwolf » Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:52 am

querious wrote:Chan,
Aardwolf thinks that because the tension of the wire needs to be recalibrated on the moon...
I never suggested it needed recalibrating. You led yourself to that conclusion when you finally accepted the apparatus was interacting with the planet and realised the results could not possibly be independent of the Earth's gravity.
querious wrote:Although, now that I think about it, there might be calibration errors...
My position is that as far as we know the results we have are only relevant to Earth as that's the body driving the results.

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Re: Gravity - Miles Mathis

Unread post by Chan Rasjid » Wed Feb 24, 2016 3:56 pm

Aardwolf wrote:
querious wrote:Chan,
Aardwolf thinks that because the tension of the wire needs to be recalibrated on the moon...
I never suggested it needed recalibrating. You led yourself to that conclusion when you finally accepted the apparatus was interacting with the planet and realised the results could not possibly be independent of the Earth's gravity.
querious wrote:Although, now that I think about it, there might be calibration errors...
My position is that as far as we know the results we have are only relevant to Earth as that's the body driving the results.
The design of the Cavendish experiment needs the earth's gravity to work, but it does not naturally follow that the result the experiment seeks is dependent on the small g.

A pendulum clock works well on earth as it is in Moon - as long as we do not seek result in Heaven. The purpose of our pendulum clock could be just to keep time in seconds as define by some mean solar day. Once calibrated it works. The clock needs a recalibration if it is brought to the Moon; the result of keeping time of earth's day still works good despite a different g on the moon. So the need for small g for a gadget to work does not mean the result expected from the gadget is dependent on g.

Best regards,
Chan Rasjid.

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Miles Mathis in agreement with W Thornhill?

Unread post by katesisco » Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:28 am

http://milesmathis.com/limat.pdf
As I pursued this idea, I could see that unification of this sort wasn't just indicating a unification of the
charge equations with the gravity equations, it was indicating a unification of all the particles involved
in both fields. In other words, I could soon see that baryonic matter wasn't just unified with and
influenced by charge, it was a
function
of charge, so much so that matter could just be seen as a larger
charge structure. That is what these new experiments are really telling us: matter is a charge structure
itself. Matter is simply a larger architecture of charge.

This is in agreement with Walt Thornhill in his video on Understanding Gravity is it not? I believe I understood his to say electricity alters matter hence gravity? I could be wrong.

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Re: Gravity - Miles Mathis

Unread post by Aardwolf » Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:08 am

Chan Rasjid wrote:A pendulum clock works well on earth as it is in Moon - as long as we do not seek result in Heaven. The purpose of our pendulum clock could be just to keep time in seconds as define by some mean solar day. Once calibrated it works. The clock needs a recalibration if it is brought to the Moon; the result of keeping time of earth's day still works good despite a different g on the moon. So the need for small g for a gadget to work does not mean the result expected from the gadget is dependent on g.
And this is the fundamental problem with your circular reasoning that you are clearly oblivious to.

Your suggestion is merely to adjust the pendulum sufficiently so that it oscillates each second. This IN NO WAY proves anything about the gravity and density of the Moon. You're adjusting your apparatus to give the answer you seek. Because the theory states gravity is based on mass alone you then will deduce that because g = x and r = y the density of the moon is z. Circular reasoning and complete nonsense. Nothing is proven or verified or calibrated.

Speaks volumes that you can't even see it but I guess you're not here for enlightenment or to help further our understanding of the universe. Stick to the dogma if it makes you feel comfortable.

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Re: Gravity - Miles Mathis

Unread post by Aardwolf » Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:15 am

Chan Rasjid wrote:So the need for small g for a gadget to work does not mean the result expected from the gadget is dependent on g.
Do you work in a scientific field?

You're stating the output needs an input and if you change the input the output also changes, however, the output is not dependent on said input.

That's your position?

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Re: Miles Mathis in agreement with W Thornhill?

Unread post by D_Archer » Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:56 am

katesisco wrote:This is in agreement with Walt Thornhill in his video on Understanding Gravity is it not? I believe I understood his to say electricity alters matter hence gravity? I could be wrong.
Not in wording but in a general idea sense, yes probably.

Wallace (Sansbury) propose a substructure for the Electron, smaller charged particles (negative and positive) that also have mass and the substructure is in resonance, but stops at explaining how/what resonance physically is and also what negative/positive charge physically is.

Miles has defined the smaller particle as the photon, with spin and radius (and thus 3D extension and mass/energy), Miles has the photons gaining energy by collisions that spin them up, basically saying en electron is a more energetic photon (ie with added spin levels*). The photon is physical and is the charge, the only distinction is that there are photons and anti-photons, the difference is that the anti-photons are upside down.

Regards,
Daniel

* spin adds with gyroscopic rules, a particle can gain spin by spinning end over end for example. And that is how larger structures can be build and are also stable.
- Shoot Forth Thunder -

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Re: Gravity - Miles Mathis

Unread post by Chromium6 » Fri May 13, 2016 10:55 pm

Came across this link...thoughts Chan?:

http://www.electric-sun.info/main.html

CAN GRAVITY AND THE ELECTRIC CHARGE SCREENED?

What happens if a small body falls into the Sun? (What's the answer? -Cr6) Such a body could be a small star e.g. a "white dwarf". These can have more mass than the Sun (by 40%). Let us think that this small star has the mass equal to that of the Sun. The result can be that the solar core will have in its centre a hard and heavy component, much denser than the very dense solar core.

Nobody thinks that the white dwarf- as big as the Earth - could not attract all planets through the 700000km thick solar body which has its own big mass. It is quite clear, that the double of the new solar mass would produce a double of attraction by the higher gravity and our Earth would approach the new Sun in a spiral as long as its centrifugal force will not be double than now. (In the reality, the Sun could not survive the collision with a white dwarf. Fortunately it is only a thought experiment.)

However, very probably, a white dwarf is positively charged because it has a strong magnetic field up to 1000 Tesla - which could be the result of the quickly rotated electric charge. Is the positive charge of this thought central white dwarf detectable at Earth similar to the thought double strength of gravity in the case above? Would the electrons of the solar wind attracted by this positive charge which is in the centre of the Sun? The probable answer is: no, a positive charge in the depth of the Sun could not be detected at Earth. The solar plasma is not transparent for photons which are the carriers of the positive electric field. This field starts at the positive surface of the white dwarf. Many observations show that gravity can pervade plasma but the electric force cannot pervade plasma.

Already 0.01 gram of protons in excess would explode the Sun if the electrostatic repulsion could pervade the solar plasma! But the Sun is still there. Either, the Sun is totally balanced in its electric charges. It should have neither positive nor negative overbalance even not in milligram-range for the positive charge or microgram-range in electrons. The other possibility is that it is not sensitive if its electric charges are unbalanced. But the Sun cannot be balanced! Already before it was born, the mother-cloud was bombarded by the cosmic rays giving positive charge to it. Also young stars in the proximity emitted X-rays which ionized hydrogen and helium of the mother cloud i.e. many electrons could not return after their emission by these photons. However, positive masses of billion tons are emitted in coronal mass ejections daily and not milligrams.

GRAVITY AND ELECTRICITY

There are many differences between the two forces of infinite radius. The problems of the astrophysics of the last century have their origin in the fact that these differences were neglected. Moreover, the electric force of infinite radius was looked at as having short radius acting only in atoms. Positively charged atoms existed, but positively charged stars should not exist. Following table shows the two forces of infinite radius.
Last edited by Chromium6 on Fri May 13, 2016 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gravity - Miles Mathis

Unread post by moonkoon » Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:29 pm

Thanks for the all the informative discussion about gravity. What follows is my attempt to track the development and application of the concept. Criticisms, corrections etc. are welcome.

I need to add a disclaimer that, like many here, the more I look into the subject the more uneasy I feel about our current understanding of gravity. So I am interested in alternative explanations.

At present I tend to favour some type of connection between the aether (which is now known by pseudonyms such as dark energy, neutrino, dark matter, Higgs field and so on) and matter. A connection that provides a single source driver for cosmological motion. This entails a rethink of both gravity and conservation of angular and (if it actually exists for matter at cosmological scales), linear momentum. It may also require the inclusion of aether into the conservation of energy scene. Such impertinence probably puts me a ways out on the crackpot branch as far as big science is concerned, but anyway. :-)

Apart from an aside, I haven't mentioned spin in this polemic. That's because gravity is not thought to play any role in this type of motion, it being due solely to primordial angular momentum and the conservation thereof which is balanced by self-adhesion of the mass. As I understand it, gravity only plays a part in the accretion of the body from the primordial disk.

Is gravity losing its grip on reality?

Everything in the universe appears to be moving relative to something else, and the majority of that motion appears to be curved, as in a planet moving in an orbit about a central point. Some people, Johannes Kepler for example, thought that this demonstrated that natural motion is circular. Others, like Rene Descartes favoured the idea that natural motion is rectilinear, i.e. that matter is naturally inclined to move in a straight line, only deviating from this natural straight path if some other external force is acting on it (which is usually the case).

It could be argued that this difference is just a semantic issue, that the forces that cause deviation from the straight and narrow are part of the natural order so that the rectilinear idea is an unreal ideal state as far as matter is concerned. But Descartes' idea got a lot of traction when Isaac Newton proposed that the observed curved motion could be attributed to the existence of two separate, very unequal and unrelated types of motion, firstly inertia or linear momentum which is a pre-existing state of motion and a second one which has its origin in mass itself and which acts on other matter causing the direction of the inertial component to constantly change.

The earlier concept of angular motion or momentum (nee impetus) was also recognized by Newton but only in the context of spinning bodies. He seems to have been the first to propose that it was conserved.

"A top, whose parts, by their cohesion, are perpetually drawn aside from rectilinear motions, does not cease its rotation otherwise than it is retarded by the air. ... greater bodies of the planets and comets, meeting with less resistance in more free spaces, preserve their motions both progressive and circular for a much longer time"
- Axioms; or Laws of Motion, Law I. in The Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy. (See here)

This division of motion into two separate, unrelated, vastly unequal components was helped along by the new-at-the-time idea that curved motion could be represented by two motion components or vectors (h/t Robert Hooke et al.). Curved motion could be divided into two components, one tangential to the curved track and the other perpendicular to the curve.

Once two components have been identified then the way is open to assign two different origins to the motion. And that, via Newton, is what happened. He identified the perpendicular component as originating in the center of a mass and he went further with this line of thinking by proposing that separate masses are influenced by this component of motion, that they attract one other. The rectilinear component or vector was assumed to be inherent and lately it has been proposed that this inherent motion is a result of the event that set everything in motion, the proposed cosmological big bang. Note the if a curved motion has more than two components, as is the case for helical motion (which has three components) then the set of components is called a tensor, but still involves separating the complete motion into component parts.

To bolster his idea, Newton came up with a suitable expression that enabled the observed motion of a falling body, called g (little g), to be calculated from the mass of the earth and the distance between the center of the earth and the falling body. However, in order to obtain the correct result it is necessary to apply an adjustment factor (also known as a constant) to the mass/distance relationship. This adjustment factor is written as G (big G) and is called the universal gravitational constant.

Because this constant must possess dimensions , i.e. length, mass and time (the expression is not valid if the constant doesn't have the dimensions of length^3 *, mass^-1, time^-2) it is called a dimensioned constant. This is in contrast with the arguably more fundamental constants (such as pi, which is just a number), which are called dimensionless constants. The other thing to note about G is that when everyday units are used to describe the masses and distance involved, it has an extremely small value. G's value is hard to pin down precisely but depending on the units chosen for mass and time it is something like 0.00000000000676 m^3 kg^-1 t^-2.

Newton's expression can be written as the force acting between two masses in the form,

F = GMm/r^2,

M and m are the masses involved and r is the distance between their centers. Note that, unlike length, where the product of two lengths can give an area, by itself, the product of two masses does not yield useful information. The more intuitive combinations of M + m or M - m do not work. Note also that this form of the expression is similar to the expression for the force between two electrical charges (Coulomb's Law), F = Kq1q2/r^2 with K being the constant and q1 and q2 the charges.

From this expression the acceleration due to the force between the two bodies, called little g, can be derived. We do this by substituting mg for F so that the expression becomes,

mg = GMm/r^2,

and from there it is just a matter of using the simple mathematical expedient of removing the little m's from both sides of the expression to obtain

g = GM/r^2.

And if we plug in the right values for big G, M and r we get the right (observed) value for little g, i.e. about ten meters/second/second.
Q.E.D.
No one knows exactly how Newton came up with this expression.

About a century ago a new idea was proposed by Albert Einstein. This still involved the mass of the large body, but instead of the mass directly influencing motion it was here proposed that there was a more indirect effect with the mass now influencing spacetime causing it to curve so that any other masses would then follow the now curved shape of space (this curved track becomes the shortest distance between two points and is called the geodesic). The motion becomes a function of this curvature of spacetime rather than direct mutual attraction between the masses. This necessitated the designation of gravity as a pseudo force as opposed to a real force. In my opinion, this idea is significant because it includes spacetime into the mix as well as the masses themselves.

However recent observations of the cosmos have upset this apple-cart :-) and cast doubt on the relationship between gravity and mass. It has been found necessary to propose the existence of at least four times more mass than we can see in order to account for the observed motions of some galaxies. This affects both of the mass related causes discussed above. Because we cannot see this mass it is called dark matter. Unlike ordinary matter, dark matter, by definition, does not radiate energy. One could perhaps imagine dark matter to be like a very cold non-radioactive rock or gas that does not reflect or re-radiate incident (incoming) energy. Strange stuff, no?

It could also be that the current understanding of gravity may be returning anomalous results for the density of some of the components of the solar system. For example, although photographic evidence suggests a rocky composition, the latest estimate for the density of comet 67P is about 0.5 which is similar to the density of fluffy snow. Others think that the hydrogen sun model is obsolete and that iron is its most abundant element but the density is calculated to be about 1.5 which doesn't allow for much iron content.

Given this state of affairs others have looked for a different origin for the seat of this strange phenomenon we identify as the force due to gravity. And given the similarity of the force expressions between two masses and two charges, some have proposed an alternative mechanism, that being the influence of the electron field. This idea still treats the perpendicular vector as a separate force but invokes the electron field rather than the proton (field?) which contains the majority of the thing we call mass. The neutron is a sort of hybrid of a proton and an electron so its mass is also proton related. Recall too that (at some scales?) the force associated with the electron field is about thirty-seven orders of magnitude greater than the gravity field (that is assuming that gravity does actually constitute a separate field) so their is plenty of scope for it to hide in the electron field.

It is also possible that gravity is mass related but operates differently at different scales, sometimes attracting, sometimes repelling. But nevertheless until we positively identify this extra hidden mass then the concept of mass related gravity has to be on shaky ground. :-)

* Note that length cubed is the unit for volume. It may be worth looking into why G has a volume component in its dimensions.

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Re: Gravity - Miles Mathis

Unread post by Aristarchus » Thu Jul 14, 2016 5:25 pm

Moonkoon,

Thank you for your previous post. Very interesting information to ingest and digest.

I would also add that I take the same position as Aardwolf in that I'm not responding so much as a defense of Miles Mathis, but rather, exposing the inherent prejudice of those on this thread that simply regurgitate mainstream science dogma.

The latter provides an excellent example of the Gettier Problem and thus the mainstream science defenders' arguments deteriorate into using logical fallacies as the only bolstering to defend against upchucking mainstream science for the umpteenth time. Whereas, it only highlights these posters obvious nescience that replaces critical thinking skills.

For example:
Chan Rasjid wrote:So do not entirely put the blame on mainstream science for pointing to Thunderbolt forums as being a forum of quacks and crackpots.
The above quote posited by Chan is what one could call a red herring fallacy, if it even rises to that low benchmark of a standard. Chan quotes Miles Mathis before making that statement, and then regurgitates his/her understanding of mainstream science relating to the Cavendish experiment without adequately deconstructing what he had quoted from Mathis. Chan then conflates the discussion on this TB forum topic and it's posters with what was posited by Mathis, even though the posters on this topic stated repeatedly that they didn't completely buy into Mathis' argument.

Topic A is under discussion.
Topic B is introduced under the guise of being relevant to topic A (when topic B is actually not relevant to topic A).
Topic A is abandoned.

Ergo, what Chan really wants to do is abandoned anything but the mainstream acceptance of the Cavendish experiment. Perhaps, because Chan's rebuttal is so ill-defined and only reactionary that accusing him/her of a logical fallacy is too respectful to his/her poorly enacted rhetoric.

Evidence for the above is demonstrated in Chan's next attempt to denigrate rather than converse:
Chan Rasjid wrote:Till now, no one has cast any doubt on the Cavendish experiment. I would not waste my time on Miles Mathis's analysis of the experiment; pi = 3 is in itself sufficient!
Another red herring. What makes this positing from Chan even worse is stating that no one has "till now" ... cast any doubt on the Cavendish experiment. This exemplifies not confidence from Chan, but hubris. Mathis gives a complete listing of some of the scientific papers going back as far as 1902 that "[casted] ANY doubt on the Cavendish experiment" (emphasis mine) in the very paper Chan is supposedly critiquing. It is obvious Chan is cherry picking - not very well - what he chooses to address.

Then Chan has no problem reintroducing another logical fallacy that one should abandon any entertainment of Mathis' scientific ideas when Chan again conflates Mathis positing of what constitutes pi with Mathis' positings on gravity. Evidently, the hubris of propping up a cosmology in crisis defies any resorting to proper rhetorical method. Nope. I don't think the TB forum is an example of quacks and crackpots, but I do supply evidence here for what constitutes as quackery and crackpotism.
An object is cut off from its name, habits, associations. Detached, it becomes only the thing, in and of itself. When this disintegration into pure existence is at last achieved, the object is free to become endlessly anything. ~ Jim Morrison

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Re: Gravity - Miles Mathis

Unread post by Chan Rasjid » Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:38 am

Dear Aristachus,

I am feeling bored lately and your post about me makes for a good laugh.
Aristarchus wrote: I would also add that I take the same position as Aardwolf in that I'm not responding so much as a defense of Miles Mathis, but rather, exposing the inherent prejudice of those on this thread that simply regurgitate mainstream science dogma.
...
Nope. I don't think the TB forum is an example of quacks and crackpots, but I do supply evidence here for what constitutes as quackery and crackpotism.
You don't seem to know there is a real world "out there" - the real world exist and is true! Of all species of living things in this world, be most careful of the human specie. There was the moral of the story of Cain and Abe, etc... greed, lust, hubris and many other factors affect human actions.

Deceit and crackpotism exists - we cannot ask why. The examples known in this forum would be Miles Mathis and Andre Rossi of E-Catt cold fusion machine. Don't be surprised that there are also deceit in high places - the Higg's boson, the gravity waves discovery.

There is no rule that we cannot question the mainstream analysis of the Cavendish experiments. In real life, we rely only on people we trust. I don't waste my time on Miles Mathis for the simple reason that he started off with a serious article on pi=3 and also to seriously dismiss infinitesimal calculus - that's not the way to a good start for a serious physicist. You don't marry off your daughter to a man who tells his stories about how he found his philandering ways with women a great thrill. We chose who to trust and who not to trust - that's how most practical people live.

You can try to critique the usual explanation of the Cavendish experiment, but people do have judgment of things - some people are born with a natural talent to make good judgments. Your argument must have substance before others take notice.

There was the biblical story about Adam being taught the "names of all things"...I may add that one of the names could be a "physicist-who-take-bad-physics-as-good". One example would be to think gravity could be so easily explained with a simple electric-dipole model.

Best regards,
Chan Rasjid.

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Re: Gravity - Miles Mathis

Unread post by willendure » Fri Jul 15, 2016 5:04 am

moonkoon wrote: Given this state of affairs others have looked for a different origin for the seat of this strange phenomenon we identify as the force due to gravity. And given the similarity of the force expressions between two masses and two charges, some have proposed an alternative mechanism, that being the influence of the electron field. This idea still treats the perpendicular vector as a separate force but invokes the electron field rather than the proton (field?) which contains the majority of the thing we call mass. The neutron is a sort of hybrid of a proton and an electron so its mass is also proton related. Recall too that (at some scales?) the force associated with the electron field is about thirty-seven orders of magnitude greater than the gravity field (that is assuming that gravity does actually constitute a separate field) so their is plenty of scope for it to hide in the electron field.
I'd like to point out that gravity does not just affect mass in the form of protons and electrons, but also affects light.

Experiments done to check the general theory of relativity involved sending light down a lift shaft, and measuring how much it was accelerated by gravity. This agreed with GR by to an accuracy of about 1 part in 2 million - I'll try and post up a reference to the experiment once I find it.

On the other hand, light is not deflected at all by an electrical field.

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