ancient petroglyphs

[SpaceTravellor]

@webolife,

. . .but remember also that a relatively small contingent of people migrated/multiplied over only a few generations in the not-too-distant past to all the continents, carrying with them stories/memories of former experience. This is another contributor to the worldwide nature of common petroglyph themes.

But consider this: It is my opinion that many petroglyph represents human fantasy images on the night Sky, which implicates that our ancestors far far back already had the very same imaginery and therefore also a very common mythological story and common symbols because these Sky images was/is observable over great distanses. http://www.native-science.net

[Pomalee]

But consider this: It is my opinion that many petroglyph represents human fantasy images on the night Sky, which implicates that our ancestors far far back already had the very same imaginery and therefore also a very common mythological story and common symbols because these Sky images was/is observable over great distanses. http://www.native-science.net

Even so, fantasy has its root in reality, taking what is familiar and making it fanciful, crafting chimeras, distorting the image of what actually exists. Dragon shapes, for instance, may well have been visible in the sky, but I maintain that those celestial realities are depicted as dragons simply because humanity describes what is unfamiliar in terms of what is familiar. The pictures we see in clouds are based in our experience; we don't make things up ex nihilo.

Also, context of these petroglyphs are important. I don't know what the context of these dinosaur-looking glyphs is, but if an artifact which looks spot-on like a dinosaur is found with other animals recognizable to modern man, then we may with confidence interpret the creature as being a real animal. Case in point: the Chinese zodiac. There we find a whole list of real animals. Boring, mundane animals, really. Yet somehow the dragon alone would be purely mythical or celestial? Doesn't that seem internally inconsistent? More likely is that the dragon really did exist, but is now extinct, probably cataloged as some kind of dinosaur. I'd venture to say the same thing about those creatures carved in stone in the desert.

[SpaceTravellor]

@Pomalee,

In what way can humans describe and depict their world picture, but just out from their own world, right?

That is: Al mythological symbols origin from the everyday views of elements, plants, trees, animals, human, and the diversity of celestial objects as the Sun, Moon, some few planets, stars, star constellations and even the look of the crescent Milky Way contours.

And even anthropomorphic “beings” are depicted and told of in the myths for instants if our ancestors would depict a human-like star constellation flying on the celestial night as a bird = a bird like man or woman.

- In the Norse Mythology we have a “Midgaard Serpent” that surrounds the Earth. That is: There is a great celestial figure that vaults all over the Earth and all around the Earth. This mythological serpent like figure are used in many ancient cultures in order to describe the story of Creation which is very understandable as this figure describes the contours of the Milky Way, encircling the Earth. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_(symbolism)

You wrote:
Case in point: the Chinese zodiac. There we find a whole list of real animals. Boring, mundane animals, really. Yet somehow the dragon alone would be purely mythical or celestial? Doesn't that seem internally inconsistent?

Of course a “dragon” would not be pure mythical. But when you are talking of celestial animals you are talking of celestial animals and not earthly animals, and therefore you are talking of mythical animals that mythologically and cosmologically describe some celestial conditions on the heavenly Zoo. http://www.google.dk/search?hl=da&sourc ... =&aq=f&oq=

So it is likewise inconsistent just to say that all mythological images only describe prehistoric animals that once lived on the Earth. You have to understand BOTH points of views in order to get the whole mythological and paleontological dots connected.

If your interest "only" are paleontological, just take such an approach to your studies and don´t mix it up with mythological telling and imagery that you don’t give the sufficient amount of credibility.

[webolife]

I agree with Pomalee here...
Nearly every ancient celestial myth begins as a story unfolding on earth, with the resulting mythological creature/object being sent to rest [or flung] in[to] the sky. This does not void the "plasma man" thesis, of a glow-mode megalightning event being seen worldwide by a single generation [or possible migrating clan?] of people, but Pomalee makes a compelling point, that context is the best determiner of meaning. Though these would exceed the current "world record" sizes, I have anecdotal evidence of Burmese pythons reaching lengths of between 50 and 100 feet with belly diameters of up to a meter. The serpentine dragons of Chinese culture certainly could have derived from similar sightings.

[StevenJay]

The Chinese zodiac didn't come along until thousands of years after the cataclysmic events described in various world mythologies. By that time, the dragon was already firmly established in Asian culture and mythology.

Snakes do slither, swim and, in some instances, even launch themselves from one tree top to another. Snakes do not have feathers, or long flowing beards, or wings for flying, or legs and feet with long sharp tallons. And they certainly don't (didn't) breath fire.

[nick c]

Snakes do slither, swim and, in some instances, even launch themselves from one tree top to another. Snakes do not have feathers, or long flowing beards, or wings for flying, or legs and feet with long sharp tallons. And they certainly don't (didn't) breath fire.

I would like to add disheveled hair and thunderbolts to your list, and note that the [url2=http://library.thinkquest.org/CR0215373 ... mpearl.htm]Chinese dragon[/url2] is often pictured holding a shining globe in its' claws or [url2=http://www.allposters.com/gallery.asp?a ... agons.com/]wrapped around a globe[/url2], further testimony to its' celestial nature.

The reptile, lizard, or snake is merely a familiar creature that is used to describe the terrifying writhing apparition which appeared in the sky. Plasma behaves or appears to be like a living thing. The arcs can be described as serpentine, but also as hairy or feathered. Yet these (hair or feathers) qualities are oxymoronic when used to describe a real life cold blooded reptillian creature. This contrast of impossibilities lends more credence to the description of the mythological dragon as a celestial apparition, that is a plasma phenomenon.

nick c

[SpaceTravellor]

@weboflife,
You wrote:

Nearly every ancient celestial myth begins as a story unfolding on earth, with the resulting mythological creature/object being sent to rest [or flung] in[to] the sky. This does not void the "plasma man" thesis

AD: The story is told on the Earth but the Creation Myth deals with celestial conditions and the mythical creature/image on the night Sky. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_myth
I agree on the plasma connection in the sense that this mythical image represents "something shining on the night Sky".

And:

I have anecdotal evidence of Burmese pythons reaching lengths of between 50 and 100 feet with belly diameters of up to a meter.

AD: You are right to compare a python to the celestial/mythological symbol mentioned in the first sentence, but when it come to size, your poor little Burmese worm is nothing compared to the Milky Way contours from which the Dragon Myth origin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_dr ... l_creature

The serpentine dragons of Chinese culture certainly could have derived from similar sightings.

AD: Yes. In the meaning that a serpent on the Earth gave name and symbol to the Great Milky Way Serpent on the night Sky, hence the term of the Winged Dragon or Serpent.
Other Dragon Myths here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dr ... d_folklore

[SpaceTravellor]

@StevenJay,

The Chinese zodiac didn't come along until thousands of years after the cataclysmic events described in various world mythologies. By that time, the dragon was already firmly established in Asian culture and mythology.

Yes, if you are reading the Myths literary and not for their real cosmological meaning, you certainly can make such a statement.

But can you prove it?

[SpaceTravellor]

@nick c,

Plasma behaves or appears to be like a living thing. The arcs can be described as serpentine, but also as hairy or feathered. Yet these (hair or feathers) qualities are oxymoronic when used to describe a real life cold blooded reptillian creature. This contrast of impossibilities lends more credence to the description of the mythological dragon as a celestial apparition, that is a plasma phenomenon.

Defining "oxymoronic":
ox•y•mo•ron (ks-môrn, -mr-)
n. pl. ox•y•mo•ra (-môr, -mr) or ox•y•mo•rons
A rhetorical figure in which incongruous or contradictory terms are combined,

- It is very fine by me to "plasmacise" every observable object on the sky, night or day observations.

But mythologically there is NO rhetorical or contradictive elements in placing a Winged Serpent or Dragon on the night Sky in order to symbolize either a Star Constellation or to symbolize the Milky Way contours.

The rhetorical and contradictive issues only appear when a myth is not taken for its real cosmological meaning.

- When our ancestors - all over the World - observed the large Milky Way figure, the symbolized this structure by using images of both animals and humans. And therefore ancient telling and symbols of course shows animals, especially Serpents, and humans with wings, flying around up there where bird flies.

[StevenJay]

@StevenJay,

The Chinese zodiac didn't come along until thousands of years after the cataclysmic events described in various world mythologies. By that time, the dragon was already firmly established in Asian culture and mythology.

Yes, if you are reading the Myths literary and not for their real cosmological meaning, you certainly can make such a statement.

Don't you mean your cosmological meaning? Down through the ages, and especially during more ancient times, dragons always struck abject terror into the hearts of men. Please explain how silent, amorphous, abstract, non-threatening shapes, supposedly seen in the contours of the Milky Way in the night sky, would have such an effect on people around the world? That's about as absurd as being terrified by shapes seen in clouds. It also indicates that your version of mythical dragons were only able to be observed at night, and only on clear nights at that. And yet, I'm fairly certain that "dragons" were encountered at all hours of the day or night. Interplanetary plasma discharges don't wait for the sun to go down.

But can you prove it?

That's a silly question, Ivar, because if I could, then the EU wouldn't be just a theory any more, would it? It would be a fact. There is, however, a mountain of forensic evidence which indicates the repeated catastrophic destruction rendered by "EU dragons" throughout the entire solar system. Did your Milky Way dragon (which I would love for you to point out to me) ever do anything like that, or did it just lounge around in the night sky?

[SpaceTravellor]

@StevenJay,

Note this:
I don’t question the fact of prehistoric big creatures of all kind!
I don’t question the hypothesis of either the EU or PC!

And this: It is not just MY cosmological view. It is the common globally cosmological knowledge inherited in all mythological telling from all over the World.

You wrote:

Please explain how silent, amorphous, abstract, non-threatening shapes, supposedly seen in the contours of the Milky Way in the night sky, would have such an effect on people around the world?

My explanation:
Of course ancient people were scared to meet many animals – but did they meet the prehistoric “dragon-creatures” at all?

Would you be stroked with awe if a lightning hit you - or if a cosmic explosion hit you, or if you, by any spiritually fortune, suddenly found your self drawn away out of your body and close to the Milky Way center, experiencing the creative force here?

Of course you would! You would be scared to death!

But your biggest problem is this: You cannot even BEGIN to imagine anything else but the physical tings, and that’s why you and lots of peoples are reading and taking Myths literary or even as a cock-and-bull stories that makes no sense at all.

You cannot even begin thinking of what ancient Shamans did experience in their spiritually travels - it is far beyond your slightest imagination.

But still you like to se yourself as an expert on mythical understanding?

- Because of your lack of spiritual experiences you cannot even begin to imagine that the myths can hold factual cosmological knowledge.

That’s why you and all non-spiritually experienced interpreters of myths, for instants, are reading the global Flood Myths and other genuine myths as catastrophes when it really deals with the Milky Way River Mythology and the Story of Creation.

Via such lack of spiritually experiences, the literary thinkers are distorting the genuine cosmological knowledge inherited in the Myths – and all kinds of strange theories and hypothesis shows up - mostly based on spiritual ignorance.

- Of course I’m aware that this reply will have much the same effect on you as pouring water on a goose, but that’s your problem, not mine.

NB: You can take this reply as an answer to your personal mail to me as well.

[davesmith_au]

I must interject here, and explain to anyone reading this thread who is not familiar with the EU understanding of mythology and ancient petroglyphs, that Ivor (Space Traveller) in NO WAY represents anything like the EU take on such matters. Nor, from my reading of the thread, do most of the other contributors, per se.

Dave Smith.
Forum Administrator.

[SpaceTravellor]

@davesmith,

So what now?

Shall I and "most of the other contributors" in this or other treads that shows up second opinions on EU, PC and Mythology be expelled in order to avoid any kind of second opinions and criticism?

How will it then be possible to devellop these ideas at all?

[davesmith_au]

Ivor I did not suggest you stop, I did not lock or delete the thread, you seem to have misunderstood my intention. It was not to prevent anyone from having their say, but rather a clarification of sorts.

Should you wish to develp your own ideas, there is nothing in the world stopping you from hosting your own forum. Some may even encourage it.

[SpaceTravellor]

Dave,

First:

1. I have NEVER deliberately or directly questioned the EU or PC. I find these ideas very cosmologically refreshing, so why should I?
2. As having my biggest interests in Mythology, I have many times questioned the mythological understanding in the Thunderbolt Society.
3. This is apparently not allowed – contrary to the fact that David Talbott several times asks for critical response on his ideas.

Secondly:

I’ll give you that much: You did not suggest me to stop!

I, and "most of the other contributors in this tread” are still allowed to post the ideas – as long as they don’t derive the slightest from what is accepted “on the mountain” or as long as they do not criticise anything of the contributors ideas.

If one does, one is even suggested to make ones own forum outside the Thunderbolt.

- Well, it is not up to me as a guest to set the criteria for how a person shall think or believe in the Thunderbolt Forum.

But then I suggest the Thunderbolt Administrators to make this very clear statement in big and bold font in the Forum Rules:

“It is not allowed to think or write the slightest astray from the meanings of the Administrators. If members accidentally are having any doubts what so ever of what thoughts are allowed, they shall first ask the Administrators what to think and write”.

Making such a clear statement in the rules, the Thunderbolt Forum can avoid all theories and hypothesis to be really tested – and thereby also avoid wasting time for the those peoples that might think that the Thunderbolt forum is a real open forum for any new ideas – or a forum that welcomes any criticism.

- Just tell me when the Administrators have made and announced this clear and honest addition to the Rules – tell me also at the same time with such an announcement to all members, how one can quit and delete ones membership.

Dave, feel free to use this Logo on your profile or otherwhere.