Testing the Velikovski Heritage

[David Talbott]

@Dave,
Thanks for the reply.

Well, Dave. Then read and study the links I´ve posted carefully and with an open mind and get back to me in order to get an intelligent discussion.

There´s a lot of intelligent issues on my http://www.native-science.net - pick any issue and let´s get an openminded discussion going!

All the Best from Ivar

Ivar, I have to ask you to accept reasonable groundrules here. This is a Thunderbolts.info forum. Thousands of intellectually curious folks have expressed interest in the "Saturn theory." The only reason to invite discussion of such an exotic hypothesis is that it has received extraordinary support from folks deeply involved with the Electric Universe, our primary subject.

We also receive innumerable interpretations of myth from others, but it would not be reasonable to place the burden on me to critique all of these ideas. Take what I'm offering in [url2=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_X_jeHrJ ... playnext=1]Symbols of an alien Sky[/url2] as my proposed "answer" to the thousands of alternative explanations of myth. All that is necessary here is to view the video segments and show that I've misstated a historical fact. If the facts are not misstated, then simply ask yourself this question as the presentation develops: If the hypothesized events occurred, would I expect to find these facts (patterns, images)? There is no other reasonable way to evaluate the model.

I've viewed your website, Ivar, and I would simply suggest that you apply the same test to your own hypothesis.

David Talbott

[SpaceTravellor]

Hi Dave,

Ivar, I have to ask you to accept reasonable groundrules here. This is a Thunderbolts.info forum.

Do you by this mean that it is not reasonable to be critical here on the Thunderbolt.info Forum?

- I´ve watched the Symbols of Alient Sky several times and I still am convinced of the confusion that is going on.

The Velikovki - and his followers - problems are:
1. The planetary Saturn Myth is confused for the Milky Way Saturnus/Kronos deity.
2. The "enclosed Sun" is confused for the Earth axis polar center.
3. The planetary Saturn Myth "crescent issue" is thereby confused for the revolving crescent Milky Way contours on the northern hemisphere, which revolves around the "enclosed polar center".

- Dave, I have no troubles evaluating my model. Just look carefully and open minded on my text and illustrations on http://www.native-science.net and the more direct critical http://www.saturn-myth-delusion.net

It´s just a question of letting your mind be convinced by your eyes. My model is based on the natural and mythological insight and not by any constructed hypothesis based on the lack of Mytho-Cosmological and Mytho-Cosmogonical insight.

All the Best from Ivar

[David Talbott]

The Velikovki - and his followers - problems are:
1. The planetary Saturn Myth is confused for the Milky Way Saturnus/Kronos deity.
2. The "enclosed Sun" is confused for the Earth axis polar center.
3. The planetary Saturn Myth "crescent issue" is thereby confused for the revolving crescent Milky Way contours on the northern hemisphere, which revolves around the "enclosed polar center".

Your enthusiasm for your own ideas is not a problem, Ivar. But given the nature of this forum, your first obligation is to cite either factual misstatements in the presentation of the Saturn hypothesis, or to show where the explanatory power or predictive ability of the hypothesis fails. That way, you create for yourself an opening for suggesting an alternative.

It does not work to just assert that the Saturn hypothesis is wrong because you have a different idea.

Dave

[SpaceTravellor]

Hello Dave,

Your enthusiasm for your own ideas is not a problem, Ivar. But given the nature of this forum, your first obligation is to cite either factual misstatements in the presentation of the Saturn hypothesis,

I´ve already posted my first obligation here, Dave

SpaceTravellor wrote:
The Velikovki - and his followers - problems are:
1. The planetary Saturn Myth is confused for the Milky Way Saturnus/Kronos deity.
2. The "enclosed Sun" is confused for the Earth axis polar center.
3. The planetary Saturn Myth "crescent issue" is thereby confused for the revolving crescent Milky Way contours on the northern hemisphere, which revolves around the "enclosed polar center".

These issues are both described in text and illustrations - some even animated - here:
http://www.native-science.net and http://www.saturn.myth-delusion.net

Have you really studied this issues? Really? Both the text and my illustrations "shows the factual mispresentation of the Saturn hypothesis", if you really looks carefully on my links.

- And if you dont like to look at my sites, just take a walk in a clear night and look up in the Sky, maybe bringing a Star Atlas map with the contours of the MIlky Way revolving around the Earth axis polar center.

You see, I don´t really need my websites in order to "show my methode". The Nature itself is my method.

Text from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ops

Ops, more properly Opis, (Latin: "Plenty") was a fertility deity and earth-goddess in Roman mythology of Sabine origin.

Even here the author of the Wikipedia text goes wrong: Opis was/is NOT an Earth goddess, but a Sky Goddess, and even a Milky Way Goddess major Life Giver.

Her husband was Saturn, the bountiful monarch of the Golden Age. Just as Saturn was identified with the Greek deity Cronus, Ops was identified with Rhea, Cronus' wife. In her statues and coins, Ops is figured sitting down, as Chthonian deities normally are, and generally holds a scepter or a corn spike as her main attributes.

The Chthonian deities are the manifestations of the Great Goddess, such as Gaia or Ge. Again: Not Earth Goddesses, but Milky Way Goddesses

And therefore Saturn/Cronus is The Great Milky Way God and NOT the planetary Saturn deity.

- And just think of all the superb and supreme qualities connected to the real Saturnus Myth. Do you really think the inferior planet Saturn can live up to these mythological standards? The inferior planet Saturn as being the Great Creator of the superior Galaxy?

I don´t think so, David.

All the Best from Ivar

[David Talbott]

- And just think of all the superb and supreme qualities connected to the real Saturnus Myth. Do you really think the inferior planet Saturn can live up to these mythological standards? The inferior planet Saturn as being the Great Creator of the superior Galaxy?

I'll let the moderators handle this thread, Ivar. We expect folks to honor the general guidelines and not use the forum for promoting their own esoteric interpretations of myth. The competing claims are just too varied and too devoid of factual underpinnings.

Dave

[davesmith_au]

Hi Dave,

Ivar, I have to ask you to accept reasonable groundrules here. This is a Thunderbolts.info forum.

Do you by this mean that it is not reasonable to be critical here on the Thunderbolt.info Forum?

Ivar, the Thunderbolts forum is a place for discussion of the Electric Universe, Plasma Cosmology, and associated themes. The upper boards on the forum are specifically for rational scientific discussion, not a place for criticism based on "special" dreams and visions.

The contents on this website are mostly based on some spiritual dreams and visions from a period of years beginning from 1974. The Visions went both backwards and forwards in time, and it was very difficult for me to understand the meaning in the beginning because nobody had told me that it was possible to have spiritual so called out of the body experiences. And, besides this, these dreams and visions was both sweet and so strong at the same time, that I felt my soul was on the brink of life and death.

If you wish to discuss the scientific/forensic approach Dave Talbott and others have taken to come to their positions regarding Saturn myth as related to EU, feel free to do so here. If you wish to discuss a theory you came to from having dreams and visions, I respectfully suggest you start your own forum on your own website where you are free to discuss anything you wish.

I have now looked at much of your website and don't see any science at all, nor do I see any compelling arguments against the Saturn myth as proposed by Talbott et al. Simply stating "I am right and you are wrong" does not make it so. Please familiarise yourself with the rules of continued membership of our forum.

Dave Smith.
Forum Administrator.

[SpaceTravellor]

@Dave Smith,
Thanks for the reply.

The issue in this tread regards the imaging of the Saturn Myth and that´s why I´m replying on this mythological issue.

If the issue of the Saturn Myth, regarding the EU and PC Cosmology, is not a myth but a scentific issue, then it should be renamed as "The Saturn Science".

- Anyone who really have studied the myths, would understand that "dreams and visions" is a very significant part regarding the mythological and cosmological knowledge.

I´m NOT referring to my dreams and visions when I criticise the Saturn Myth. I refer to astronomical evidences first and foremost, especially showing the contours of the Milky Way to illustrate the ancient believes of the heavenly greatest "gods and goddesses".

Dave Smith, don´t you count the astronomical Star Atlas map for being a result of science?

I don´t think you really have studied the astronomically illustrations om my website - you have just focused on the part you thought would ridicule me mostly.

And ridiculing is NOT a part of the Thunderbolt.info Forum rules, is it?

All the Best from Ivar

[SpaceTravellor]

@Dave Talbott,

You wrote:

I'll let the moderators handle this thread, Ivar. We expect folks to honor the general guidelines and not use the forum for promoting their own esoteric interpretations of myth.

- David, my concern here is not to promote my interpretations of myths - and when foremost using astronomy to illustrate the myths, you hardly can describe my methods as being "esoteric", can you?

My major concern is: That the confused Saturn Myth is a millstone on the neck of the very refreshing EU and PC cosmology and it will hinder the EU and PC prosperity for a long time if not dealth with.

OK, I´m not the one who will force anyone against their will - open minded or closed.

So, if the assembled Thunderbolt.info Forum Administrators are of the opinion to exclude a honest and serious member, so be it.

[davesmith_au]

Ivar, my response had nothing to do with ridicule, nor was any attempt made at same. I have great respect for dreams and visions, however there is a time and place to discuss same and this is not the place. Your own website is the result of dreams and visions by your own admission, and as such science seems to play little if any role in your theories. Displaying a Star Atlas map and making comparisons with a handful of images is not scientific method.

Thousands of hours of forensic research including thousands of comparisons of images from across the globe cannot be rebutted by comments without scientific substance.

Dave Smith.
Forum Administrator.

[SpaceTravellor]

Hello Dave S,
Thanks very much for the reply.

1. I`m not the one who brought the "dreams and visions" to debate on the now administrated and moved tread, remember?

2. Yes, my websites were once triggered of via some dreams and visions, but my arguments are mostly based on modern astronomy and cosmology.

Displaying a Star Atlas map and making comparisons with a handful of images is not scientific method.

3. Count the number of pages on http://www.native-science.net , count the numbers of astronomically images and the numbers of ancient symbols when you really got the time, Dave.

Thousands of hours of forensic research including thousands of comparisons of images from across the globe cannot be rebutted by comments without scientific substance.

If this statement goes for the benefit of David Talbott and his non-scientifical Saturn Myth, it certainly also must count as benefit for me who mostly argues with obvious and scientifical astronomical arguments.

NB: Will you be so kind to inform the administratively removement of my posts on the tread Smaller planets between the larger ones??

What´s the news about making a Mythological Forum topic?

All the Best from Ivar

[davesmith_au]

1. I`m not the one who brought the "dreams and visions" to debate on the now administrated and moved tread, remember?

On the contrary, you referred us to your own site with the words:

For the real mythological understanding, read this: http://www.native-science.net - my site, ...

the very introduction to which states:

The contents on this website are mostly based on some spiritual dreams and visions from a period of years beginning from 1974.

"[M]ostly based on" does not equate to "were once triggered of", and whilst you mention science a number of times, there are not, from my perusal, any scientifically valid bases for your claims.

Count the number of pages on http://www.native-science.net , count the numbers of astronomically images and the numbers of ancient symbols ...

I would rather use my time constructively with proper scientific debate than enter into a peeing contest. Now that the topic is moved to a more appropriate place, I shall leave the thread to those who have the inclination to discuss your ideas further.

Cheers, Dave.

[SpaceTravellor]

Hi Dave S.,

I still would prefer a more neutral headline "Testing the Velikovski Heritage" in stead of laying the pressure mostly on the David Talbott connection to the Saturn Myth.

You wrote:

"[M]ostly based on" does not equate to "were once triggered of", and whilst you mention science a number of times, there are not, from my perusal, any scientifically valid bases for your claims.

Regarding the dreams and visions: Does it really matter as long as I don´t generally refer directly to these in the basic text and illustrations? And if you really have your claimed respect for dreams and visions, it really should not matter for you either, if you read my sites with an open mind.

Of course there is no - yet - scientifical valid bases for my claims, but it will come soon when genuine Comparative Mythologists and Comparative Mytho-Cosmologists takes Mythology for real Cosmology by comparing the Myths to the modern science of Astronomy and Cosmology, just as I`m doing on all my sites.

- There is also not any scientifical solid and valid basis for the Velikovski Heritage and the Saturn Myth . . .

- When I took the initial contact to the Thunderbolt society, it was in a hope for some mythological cooperation vith some comparative alternative mythologists and cosmologists.

The later department is very refreshing on the Forum, but the mythology department on the Thunderbolt Society is under influence of people that have great difficulties understanding the basical mythology, taking everything literally on the "Earth ground level" in stead of taking "myths as a real heavenly cosmology of Creation".

When taking the Myths as a real Astronomy and Cosmology, the validation wil sometime soon be just as valid as every other scientific branch - maybe in some cases even better.

OK, Dave S., We`ll take it further on from here and see where it brings us.

All the Best from ivar

[SpaceTravellor]

Hello Everyone,

Follow the topic of the Velikovski Heritage and Saturn Myth here:

http://thunderbolts.info/wp/forum/phpBB3/v ... =10&t=2079

This page will contain the further debate on these issues.

All the Best from Ivar

[StevenJay]

Hello, Ivar -

Question: Would you mind sharing the names of some of the cosmologists and/or comparative mythologists who subscribe to your theory?

Observation: Reading your posts here, you seem to exhibit some of the traits of a class "A" (controller) personality, i.e., "I'm right and you're wrong, and that's just the way it is." And, of course, that's your business. But it probably won't get you very far with other researchers or life in general, for that matter.

I perused your web site and, frankly, I didn't find the information to be very compelling at all. Sorry.

- Steven

[Grey Cloud]

Hello, Ivar -

Question: Would you mind sharing the names of some of the cosmologists and/or comparative mythologists who subscribe to your theory?

Observation: Reading your posts here, you seem to exhibit some of the traits of a class "A" (controller) personality, i.e., "I'm right and you're wrong, and that's just the way it is." And, of course, that's your business. But it probably won't get you very far with other researchers or life in general, for that matter.

I perused your web site and, frankly, I didn't find the information to be very compelling at all. Sorry.

- Steven

Hi Steven,
Re your question: Are you going to ask Dave Talbott the same question?

Re your 'observation': I correspond regularly with Ivar and find him witty, open and generous. There again, I'm not the expert psychologist that you seem to be. Admittedly he does sometimes let his passion for the subject get the better of him (a trait which I'm sure he would be the first to admit).

Would you care to elaborate on why you don't find his information to be 'very compelling' given that the thread title is 'Disagreement with the Saturn Myth' and not 'What I think of Ivar'?
And, just for the record, I do not subscribe fully to Ivar's theory.