Electric Clouds

[Aardwolf]

Too many times around the same circle. You think a counter to gravity electrical field about the earth causes vapors and tiny particles of various densities to be suspended in the atmosphere. I think the electrical fields about particles cause them to interact with each other while suspended by other more ordinary means, such as density/convection considerations, which are easily explained by thermodynamics, in agreement with [not counter to] gravity, and demonstrable in my kitchen. I further have explained that simple convection is able to account for charge separation in the atmosphere and in clouds, because of the electrical interactions between particles of various sizes regardless of relative particle mass. You think the KE of evaporation is like shooting a bullet out of a gun, and that the bullet must come down [under "gravity alone"]. I say that if the bullet has enough KE it does not come down, even under gravity. I say insolation is the natural cause of that KE, although other local energy transformations are in play in various situations. You seem to insist that electrical fields drive counter to gravity motions, regardless of particle size or density. While agreeing to orbital vector geometry [easily explanable in gravitational terms], yet you disallow that "normal" KE of thermodynamics can balance the effects of gravity for even the tiniest of particles. I still say it does not serve EU to try to make unmeasured electric fields do things they are simply unnecessary for. I don't know where else to go in this debate.

Which is why I am trying to just focus on the mechanics in realtion to a single particle of Hg. Unfortunately you just keep restating that "thermodynamics does it" and retreating to vague desinty/convection explanantions; neither of which makes any sense for Hg particles suspended at room temperature for what could be an infinite period of time. Without specifically explaining how the particle reacts with the air molecules to maintain suspension, you may as well just be saying it's god or magic.

[Aardwolf]

For comparison my own personal theory for what is happening is as follows.

As we all know from Bitter solenoid experiments, if a magnetic field is strong enough any material or object can be levitated against the pull of gravity. As such there is nothing unusual about levitating Hg or water droplets. I suspect that for very small molecules in the atmosphere, gravity, as a very weak force, essentially loses any influence on the individual particles, or at the very least is overidden by other forces present. That force I would expect to be the earths own magnetic field.

This would explain why the constituent molecules of air do not organise themselves into density as expected by gravitational theory. They are organising according to their respective electromagnetic interactions with Earth's field. We already have a paper by Knudsen and Riisager; Is there a link between Earth's magnetic field and low-latitude precipitation? here, highlighting this effect where they state;

"Intriguingly, we observe a relatively good correlation between the high-resolution speleothem 18O records and the dipole moment, suggesting that Earth's magnetic field to some degree influenced low-latitude precipitation in the past. "

Unfortunately due to the fact the authors wish to continue publishing and working in the field, they come to the wrong conclusion for the mechanism rather than accept what they have discoved at face value. But this is normal in the mainstream as we are all aware.

[webolife]

Hey, hey... my appeal to the well known principles of thermodynamics is not about God or magic.
Your continued insistence that Hg particles are held in infinite suspension by macroelectrical static field is on the other hand... But never mind... I think the discussion is worthy.

[Aardwolf]

Hey, hey... my appeal to the well known principles of thermodynamics is not about God or magic.

I am only saying that to call upon a principal without stating exactly how that particle interacts under that principal, is akin to calling upon God or magic. If you wish to call upon it at least explain the mechanism acting on the particle.

Your continued insistence that Hg particles are held in infinite suspension by macroelectrical static field is on the other hand... But never mind... I think the discussion is worthy.

With sufficient power and equipment I could levitate a kilogram of Hg (or any material or compound) using a Bitter solenoid magnet, yet you find it improbable that the planet could levitate a single atom within its field. I can statically pick up much larger objects (dust, hair etc.) right now with items at hand, yet you maintain the planets electrical field is devoid of the power to lift an atom...

[webolife]

Not at all!
I think if there were such a field, it could likely be a contributing cause to all the things you are describing.
I suggest the field is the ES domain of the particles, you say the entire atmosphere and beyond is the domain of the field. Obviously that is the premise of this thread, but where is the data? Maybe it is entirely semantic as was suggested a few pages ago. If so, I'm willing to concede in hopes of further clarification.

[Aardwolf]

Not at all!
I think if there were such a field, it could likely be a contributing cause to all the things you are describing.
I suggest the field is the ES domain of the particles, you say the entire atmosphere and beyond is the domain of the field. Obviously that is the premise of this thread, but where is the data? Maybe it is entirely semantic as was suggested a few pages ago. If so, I'm willing to concede in hopes of further clarification.

If there were such a field? Are you saying the Earth may not have an electric field?

[webolife]

Not at all.
I 'm simply calling into question the effects you are attributing to it.

[Aardwolf]

Not at all.
I 'm simply calling into question the effects you are attributing to it.

Eh?

I think if there were such a field, it could likely be a contributing cause to all the things you are describing.

Sounds like you are calling the field into question here.

[webolife]

"such a field" = "a field operating according to the traits you are ascribing"
A field is only knowable by its actions, I say vectors.
I haven't yet been convinced by your arguments that an atmosphere sized levitating electric field is required.
To keep it on thread, clouds don't need to be levitated by electricity in order to float.

[Cosmic Dick]

I was looking at images of earth from satellite in google-maps, in the area of Singapore - Indonesia, and I noticed that the clouds formed a regular pattern of lines over large areas of land, and I couldn't understand what weather conditions would cause this.
I don't know how to post an image in this forum of the area in question, but a similar picture can be seen here:
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/ ... -clouds/3/
On that page they use the term "gravity waves" to describe the phenomenon, but I question this.

Is there a good electrical explanation for this type of cloud pattern?

[The Great Dog]

These appear to the Great Dog as textbook fluid dynamic phenomena. In the Amsterdam Island image, the mountain peaks are disturbing the smooth airflow, creating ripples in the atmosphere downwind of the obstacles.

The cloudy/clear pattern in the other image is produced by the location of wave crests and troughs. The moist air over the ocean can sometimes be overtopped by dry air. Clouds form at the crests of the waves because air cools at higher altitudes, causing condensation. The dry air falls into the moist air below, displacing it. Also, as the dry air sinks, it heats up, evaporating the clouds.

"Gravity waves" appears to be a red herring.

[jjohnson]

Glider pilots, pragmatists as they have to be, simply call these "cloud streets". They are often cumulus, with updrafts below and within them, and pilots can "hopscotch" from one row of clouds to the next by using the lift to gain altitude, then gliding and sinking slowly several miles to the next row, then using the clouds' lift to regain the lost altitude.

JJ

[webolife]

The great dog is correct.
Glider pilots understand and use these simple rules of convection daily.

[Aardwolf]

"such a field" = "a field operating according to the traits you are ascribing"
A field is only knowable by its actions, I say vectors.
I haven't yet been convinced by your arguments that an atmosphere sized levitating electric field is required.
To keep it on thread, clouds don't need to be levitated by electricity in order to float.

I wasn't inferring any special field, only suggesting that the existing field of the planet has the potential to counteract the pull of gravity on a single atom or very small molecules. The effect I attribute to this is the fact that layers of the atmosphere are not ordered by the weight but by their interaction within the field.

Hence the paper by Knudsen and Riisager entitled; Earth's magnetic field to some degree influenced low-latitude precipitation in the past.

We already know that large objects of any material, by using relatively little power, can be levitated using their molecular magnetism. Is it such a strectch to imagine that the immeasurably stronger field of the earth can levitate a molecule the same way?

[Aardwolf]

And here's some real life application of some locally induced effects (those pesky engineers not listening to theorists again...):

http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/environ ... s-blessing

And Wal Thorhill's discussion of the article:

http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=9eq6g3aj