Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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lizzie
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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by lizzie » Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:34 pm

Pole Shift & Pole Reversal in 2012
http://www.survive2012.com/geryl1.php
From legends and the sunspot cycle theory of the Maya, we can reconstruct the cause of a polar reversal. It has long been known that when a beam of lightning strikes a magnet, a reversal of the magnetic poles takes place. Let's apply this principle on a broader scale.

Our earth is a huge magnet, with its own North and South Poles. A short-circuit with another external "beam of lightning,” or magnet, can end in a catastrophic polar reversal. This means that the magnetic North Pole changes place with the magnetic South Pole. But what sort of external beam can cause this? What force is powerful enough to stop the rotation of the earth and revert it?

Only one object can cause this: our sun. You know from my book, The OrionProphecy that the magnetic field of the sun undergoes a drastic change every 11,500 to 12,000 years. Once a crucial point has been reached, it reverses instantaneously. Chaotic outbursts accompany this phenomenon and an immense cloud of plasma is catapulted into space. Then a shock wave of particles reaches our planet and the polar reversal of our earth commences.

With unknown power this solar lightning strikes our planet and causes a gigantic short circuit. That is the catastrophic truth behind a polar reversal of the earth. But how can we scientifically describe this fact? What is the precise physical cause that produces this polar reversal?
The Lid of the Palenque
http://www.zahdio.com/
The Sun was, and is, known to go through a series of cycles that differentiate the rotation of the Suns core from the outer sheath of its body. The outer layer of our Sun revolves entirely once every 37 Earth days. This is understood today. This layer and the core rotate at different speeds. It may seem similar to an electric generator. Eventually the Sun reverses its magnetic fields. This may happen roughly every 18,000 years. At this time the Earth attempts to reverse its fields to align with the sun, which causes tremendous alteration of the Earths surface features. The continents may pull apart and the polar ice may melt and shift.

But there IS a method of achieving this, on which Cotterell has termed "Rotational Differentiation". He begins explaining it by displaying how the Polar magnetic pole (P) rotates once every 37 days; The Equatorial field (E) rotates once every 26 days. There comes a time (after 87.454545 days) when E overlaps, or begins to overtake P.

So, analysis of the sunspot cycles shows us that the Sun's magnetic field, and its effects in space, reverses about every 3,750 years so that 5 magnetic reversals take place approximately every 18,139 years, and each reversal takes 374 years to complete from start to finish.

The ancient Maya understood this so well that they knew exactly how many orbits of the planet Venus would occur before the sun entered into it's final cataclysmic reversal of it's magnetic field which would dramatically affect our Earth.
2012, and the Mayan Calendar
http://thehumanlifeexperience.blogspot.com/
The "Gregorian" method of tracking is not only wildly inaccurate, but it is a complete fabrication!

Within the 5,125 year cycle lies 13 smaller cycles, known as the "13 Baktun Count," or the "long count." Each baktun cycle lasts for 394 years, or 144,000 days.

Each baktun was its own Historical Age, within the Great Creation Cycle, with a specific destiny for the evolution of those who incarnated in each baktun. Planet Earth and her inhabitants are currently traveling through the 13th baktun cycle the final period of 1618-2012 AD.

We entered this baktun cycle right after establishing the world wide coordination of Pope Gregory XIII’s 12 month calendar system (1582) as well as the introduction of 12 hour 60-minute mechanical clock (1600).

According to Valum Votan, (a Mayan Prophet), these two instruments are what manifested humanity's "error in time", which is the following of artificial instruments of time that served to separate Humanity from the rest of nature; operating by our own false timing frequency, to the ultimate detriment of our natural world.

The Gregorian calendar is not based on logic, science, or nature. It denies and covers up the true annual human biological cycle, which is conserved in the body of a woman. In simple terms, we're operating on the wrong "wavelength".
5125 x 5 = 25,625 years (5 magnetic field reversals of the Sun during a Grand Cycle)

We are in the Age of the Fifth Sun

Grey Cloud
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Location: NW UK

Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Sun Feb 08, 2009 8:18 am

Hi Lizzie,
Why have you posted this crap in this thread?
From the Geyl site:
The earth will be subjected to total destruction.
Total destruction yet he is still hoisting adverts for survival kits etc.
I needed days, weeks, months and years to follow their carefully applied clues and decode them.
Days, weeks, months and years! So has he travelled the world looking at ancient monuments and texts in libraries or has he just sat at home reading books by modern authors?
From legends and the sunspot cycle theory of the Maya, we can reconstruct the cause of a polar reversal.
Which legends? What sunspot cycle theory of the Maya?
You know from my book, The OrionProphecy that the magnetic field of the sun undergoes a drastic change every 11,500 to 12,000 years.
I thought that the Sun reversed its polarity on an eleven year cycle?

From his twaddle on Dragons:
The word "dragon" is derived from the Latin dracon, which came from the Greek word for serpent, spakov. Spakov can be traced to the Greek aorist verb, spakelv meaning "sharp-sighted one" (a reference to the perceived good vision of snakes), and is related to many other ancient words to do with sight, such as darc (Sanskrit for see), derc (Old Irish for eye), torht (Old Saxon) and zoraht (Old High German) which both mean clear, or bright.
If you google for "aorist verb" you will notice that nearly all the hits are worded in the same way which suggests to me that they have all been lifted from a common source. The word 'aorist' refers to the tense of the verb.
I couldn't find any reference to 'spakov' but 'serpent' comes from the Latin 'serpens'. 'Drakon' is a Greek word. The rest of his etymologies are just smoke and mirrors to impress the gullible with his 'scholarship'.
An English folktale which dates back to the early fifteenth century tells of Sir John Lambton battling "the Worm." The original story makes no mention of this "worm" having legs.
I realise that Americans view things differently, but to we Europeans the early C15th is not ancient, it's not even close.
Here's a link to the original song:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A882911
It's about a guy who threw an earthworm down a well.
But the worm got fat an' growed an' growed,
An' growed an aaful size;
He'd greet big teeth, a greet big gob,
An' greet big goggle eyes.
An' when at neets he craaled aboot
To pick up bits o'news,
If he felt dry upon the road,
He milked a dozen coos.
(It's written in a NE dialect for those interested in such things).

From his section on Ancient Greece:
In Greek myth the founder of Athens was Cecrops, who was born of the earth (without parents), as a half-man, half-serpent - he had a tail from the waist down:
As the first king of Attica, Cecrops greatly contributed to the civilising of the state. He was the provider of laws, and encouraged monogamy. He invented writing, ended human sacrifices and encouraged a new practice of burying the dead. He called his principal city
Cecropia but his people wanted the city to be associated with a god, either Poseidon or Athena. Poseidon demonstrated his power by striking his trident and cracking the rock of the Acropolis, causing a stream of water to flow out. Athena simply created an olive tree, which the people preferred, and so they designated her the patron deity - hence the city's modern name of Athens. Poseidon was greatly upset by his loss and punished Cecrops and the city by sending a disastrous flood.

The people survived and built a new city of Athens.
He indents this passage but does not give any source. There again he does not give any sources for anything he writes. If Cecrops was born from the Earth then the Earth was his mother. Some ancient authors cite
Hephaestus as the father which would account for the serpent half.
I prefer Theoi.com which is the best and most comprehensive site on Greek mythology that I have found. From there:
Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 3. 14. 5 :
"When Kekrops died, Kranaus came to the throne; he was a son of the soil, and it was in his time that the flood in the age of Deukalion is said to have taken place."
Back to Geyl:
Athena was the goddess of wisdom, prudent warfare, arts and crafts, and defender of the law.
'Prudent warfare'?
After the Flood of Deukalion, Zeus commanded Prometheus and Athena to call forth a new race of men from the mire left by the waters of the deluge.
Again no source for this but the common rendering of the myth is that Deukalion and his wife Pyrrha were informed by Themis to cover their heads and throw the bones of their mother over their shoulders. There mother being Earth they threw rocks over their shoulders and from these
sprung up people. Deukalion was the son of Prometheus (foresight) and Pyrrha was the daughter of Prometheus' brother Epimetheus (hindisght).

Survive2012 is a really pathetic site which has a reminder to buy his book on every page. If you consult his books to buy link there is not one ancient text in the list. In other words he is getting his 'facts' from secondary and tertiary sources at best.

The zahdio site:
The Sun was, and is, known to go through a series of cycles that differentiate the rotation of the Suns core from the outer sheath of it's body. The outer layer of our Sun revolves entirely once every 37 Earth days. This is understood today. This layer and the core rotate at
different speeds. It may seem similar to an electric generator. Eventually the Sun reverses it's magnetic fields. This may happen roughly every 18,000 years.
Straight away the 'facts' on this site are contradicting the 'facts' on the Geyl site. Geyl gives 11,500-12,000 and this muppet gives 18,000 - a 50% discrepancy.
The only 'references' mentioned on this page are modern such as Cotterill and Gilbert! All we have is a load of baseless assertions about what the Maya kew, what the lid of Palenque says and other rubbish.

Your third helping of drivel is from a blog which was begun last October and has not received one response since. This is not surprising as there is nothing in its contents which cannot be found in countless books or websites.

There are other threads down here in the NIAMI section which provide a home for unrestrained speculation, please avail yourself of these as I am trying to maintain a certain level of scholarship, intelligence and discrimination in this one. :roll:
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

lizzie
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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by lizzie » Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:36 pm

Gray Cloud said: Why have you posted this crap in this thread?
I’m not interested in whether or not he is selling survival kits or if he thinks the Earth will be totally destroyed. Is his theory credible or not? Is Paul LaViolette’s theory also crap?
Gray Cloud said: Which legends? What sunspot cycle theory of the Maya?
I am referring to Maurice Cottrell and Adrian Gilbert’s theories on sunspots. Do people think their theories are crap as well?
Gray Cloud said: I thought that the Sun reversed its polarity on an eleven year cycle?
According to Cottrell and Gibert , the 11 year solar cycle is the only one our scientists are aware of today. However, the Mayans tracked other longer solar cycles.

We seldom talk about the role the Sun might play in instituting global catastrophes. What about periodic massive coronal ejections that could strike the Earth? That's sounds as if it might be rather catatrophic for the Earth.

http://www.cogwriter.com/end-mayan-calendar-2012.htm
In 1986 Maurice Cotterell put forward a revolutionary theory concerning astrology and sun cycles. He had for some years suspected that the sun's variable magnetic field had consequences for life on earth. The sun has a complex field which loops and twists itself into knots. It has long been suspected that these loops give rise to sunspots, which are dark blemishes on the sun's skin.

As expected his model predicted that there should be a sunspot cycle of roughly eleven and a half years, closely corresponding to what has been observed over several centuries. However, he also found graphic evidence for longer cycles including a period of 1,366,040 days. His work took a new turn when he read about the Mayan super number from the Dresden Codex: 1,366,560 days. This was exactly two 260 day cycles larger than his theoretical sunspot period. He therefore proposed that the two were related.

Gilbert appears to have written the 212 pages of main text, even summarizing Cotterell's work in his own voice, while Cotterell provides 100 pages of mathematically complex appendices which the casual reader will find impenetrable. These are supposed to provide the rigorous scientific evidence for Cotterell's end-date cataclysm theory, which is as follows:

Sunspot cycles give rise to larger solar aberrations in which the sun's magnetic field periodically reverses, causing the earth's pole to shift and thus resulting in cataclysm. According to Cotterell, the solar reversals come in groups of five, which together make a grand cycle of 18,139 years. The five "ages" are not all of the same length, due to complex solar rhythms which Cotterell modelled on a computer using only three variables.

Grey Cloud
Posts: 2477
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Location: NW UK

Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:59 pm

Hi Lizzie,
Note the word 'ancient' in the thread title.
You show me where the Maya talk about Sun cycles and I will decide whether they are crap or not. Whether La Violette's theories are crap or not he is not ancient.

You wrote:
What about periodic massive coronal ejections that could strike the Earth? That's sounds as if it might be rather catatrophic for the Earth.
Fine, show me an ancient textual reference to this otherwise please stop dumping this rubbish in this thread.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

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StefanR
Posts: 1371
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:31 pm
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by StefanR » Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:26 pm

Below are some excerpts from a nice online book "Cosmos and History - The Myth Of The Eternal Return". I found it quite clear in delineating some reasons it can be hard for us "moderns" to get into the right understanding of myths. It would be to much to get the whole book overhere, but maybe the quotes below can give some idea of what it contains.
I hope I have made up a little for me having made you miss "Match of the day". ;)
((I have seen it all, and I can tell it was the same as the last matches that you saw :mrgreen: ) Van Persie kept up the dutch flow in the League though 8-) ))
Had we not feared to appear overambitious, we should have given this book a subtitle: Introduction to a Philosophy of History. For such, after all, is the purport of the present essay; but with the distinction that, instead of proceeding to a speculative analysis of the historical phenomenon, it examines the fundamental concepts of archaic societies societies which, although they are conscious of a certain form of "history," make every effort to disregard it. In studying these traditional societies, one characteristic has especially struck us: it is their revolt against concrete, historical time, their nostalgia for a periodical return to the mythical time of the beginning of things, to the "Great Time." The meaning and function of what we have called "archetypes and repetition" disclosed themselves to us only after we had perceived these societies' will to refuse concrete time, their hostility toward every attempt at autonomous "history," that is, at history not regulated by archetypes. This dismissal, this opposition, are not merely the effect of the conservative tendencies of primitive societies, as this book proves.
[..]
The problem of history as history, however, will not be directly approached in this essay. Our chief intent has been to
set forth certain governing lines of force in the speculative field of archaic societies. It seemed to us that a simple presentation of this field would not be without interest, especially for the philosopher accustomed to finding his problems and the means of solving them in the texts of classic philosophy or in the situations of the spiritual history of the West. With us, it is an old conviction that Western philosophy is dangerously close to "provincializing" itself (if the expression be permitted): first by jealously isolating itself in its own tradition and ignoring, for example, the problems and solutions of Oriental thought; second by its obstinate refusal to recognize any "situations" except those of the man of the historical civilizations, in defiance of the experience of "primitive" man, of man as a member of the traditional societies. We hold that philosophical anthropology would have something to learn from the valorization that pre-Socratic man (in other words, traditional man) accorded to his situation in the universe. Better yet: that the cardinal problems of metaphysics could be renewed through a knowledge of archaic ontology.
[..]
This study, likewise, does not attempt to be exhaustive. Addressing ourselves both to the philosopher and to the ethnologist
or orientalist, but above all to the cultivated man, to the nonspecialist, we have often compressed into brief statements what, if duly investigated and differentiated, would demand a substantial book. Any thoroughgoing discussion would have entailed a marshaling of sources and a technical language that would have discouraged many readers. But instead of furnishing specialists with a series of marginal comments upon their particular problems, our concern has been to draw the
attention of the philosopher, and of the cultivated man in general, to certain spiritual positions that, although they have been
transcended in various regions of the globe, are instructive for our knowledge of man and for man's history itself.
......
The premodern or "traditional" societies include both the world usually known as "primitive" and the ancient cultures of Asia, Europe, and America. Obviously, the metaphysical concepts of the archaic world were not always formulated in theoretical language; but the symbol, the myth, the rite, express, on different planes and through the means proper to them, a complex
system of coherent affirmations about the ultimate reality of things, a system that can be regarded as constituting a metaphysics. It is, however, essential to understand the deep meaning of all these symbols, myths, and rites, in order to succeed in translating them into our habitual language. If one goes to the trouble of penetrating the authentic meaning of an archaic myth or symbol, one cannot but observe that this meaning shows a recognition of a certain situation in the cosmos and that, consequently, it implies a metaphysical position. It is useless to search archaic languages for the terms so laboriously created by the great philosophical traditions: there is every likelihood that such words as "being," "nonbeing," "real," "unreal," "becoming," "illusory," are not to be found in the language of the Australians or of the ancient Mesopotamians. But if the word is lacking, the thing is present; only it is "said" that is, revealed in a coherent fashion through symbols and myths.
[...]
The Symbolism of the Center
Paralleling the archaic belief in the celestial archetypes of cities and temples, and even more fully attested by documents,
there is, we find, another series of beliefs, which refer to their being invested with the prestige of the Center. We examined this problem in an earlier work; 16 here we shall merely recapitulate our conclusions. The architectonic symbolism of the Center may be formulated as follows:
1. The Sacred Mountain where heaven and earth meet is situated at the center of the world.
2. Every temple or palace and, by extension, every sacred city or royal residence is a Sacred Mountain, thus becoming a Center.
3. Being an axis mundi, the sacred city or temple is regarded as the meeting point of heaven, earth, and hell.
......
The center, then, is pre-eminently the zone of the sacred, the zone of absolute reality. Similarly, all the other symbols of absolute reality (trees of life and immortality, Fountain of Youth, etc.) are also situated at a center. The road leading to the center is a "difficult road" (durohana), and this is verified at every level of reality: difficult convolutions of a temple (as at Borobudur); pilgrimage to sacred places (Mecca, Hardwar, Jerusalem); danger-ridden voyages of the heroic expeditions in search of the Golden Fleece, the Golden Apples, the Herb of Life; wanderings in labyrinths; difficulties of the seeker for the
road to the self, to the "center" of his being, and so on. The road is arduous, fraught with perils, because it is, in fact, a rite of the passage from the profane to the sacred, from the ephemeral and illusory to reality and eternity, from death to life, from man to the divinity. Attaining the center is equivalent to a consecration, an initiation; yesterday's profane and illusory existence gives place to a new, to a life that is real, enduring, and effective.
[..]
To summarize, we might say that the archaic world knows nothing of "profane" activities: every act which has a definite meaning hunting, fishing, agriculture; games, conflicts, sexuality, in some way participates in the sacred. As we shall see more clearly later, the only profane activities are those which have no mythical meaning, that is, which lack exemplary models. Thus we may say that every responsible activity in pursuit of a definite end is, for the archaic world, a ritual. But since the majority of these activities have undergone a long process of desacralization and have, in modern societies, become profane, we have thought it proper to group them separately. Take the dance, for example. All dances were originally
sacred; in other words, they had an extrahuman model. The model may in some cases have been a totemic or emblematic
animal, whose motions were reproduced to conjure up its concrete presence through magic, to increase its numbers, to obtain incorporation into the animal on the part of man. In other cases the model may have been revealed by a divinity (for example the pyrrhic, the martial dance created by Athena) or by a hero (cf. Theseus' dance in the Labyrinth). The dance may be executed to acquire food, to honor the dead, or to assure good order in the cosmos. It may take place upon the occasion of initiations, of magico-religious ceremonies, of marriages, and so on. But all these details need not be discussed here. What is of interest to us is its presumed extrahuman origin ( for every dance was created in illo tempere, in the mythical period, by an ancestor, a totemic animal, a god, or a hero) . Choreographic rhythms have their model outside of the profane
life of man; whether they reproduce the movements of the totemic or emblematic animal, or the motions of the stars;
whether they themselves constitute rituals (labyrinthine steps, leaps, gestures performed with ceremonial instruments)
a dance always imitates an archetypal gesture or commemorates a mythical moment.
[...]
Thus we perceive a second aspect of primitive ontology: insofar as an act (or an object) acquires a certain reality through the repetition of certain paradigmatic gestures, and acquires it through that alone, there is an implicit abolition of profane time, of duration, of "history"; and he who reproduces the exemplary gesture thus finds himself transported into the mythical epoch in which its revelation took place. The abolition of profane time and the individual's projection into mythical time do not occur, of course, except at essential periods those, that is, when the individual is truly himself: on the occasion of rituals or of important acts (alimentation, generation, ceremonies, hunting, fishing, war, work). The rest of his life is passed in profane time, which is without meaning: in the state of "becoming".
....
Just as profane space is abolished by the symbolism of the Center, which projects any temple, palace, or building into the
same central point of mythical space, so any meaningful act performed by archaic man, any real act, i.e., any repetition of an archetypal gesture, suspends duration, abolishes profane time, and participates in mythical time. This suspension of profane time answers to a profound need on the part of primitive m<an, as we shall have occasion to observe in the next chapter when we examine a series of parallel conceptions relating to the regeneration of time and the symbolism of the New Year. We shall then understand the significance of this need, and we shall see that the man of archaic cultures tolerates "history" with difficulty and attempts periodically to abolish it.
[...]
This is not the place to enter upon the problem of the combat between monster and hero (cf. Bernhard Schweitzer, Herakles, Tubingen, 1922; A. Lods, Comptes rendus de I'Academic des Inscriptions, Paris, 1943, pp. 283 fi\). It is highly probable, as Georges Dumzil suggests (Horace et Us Curiaces, Paris, 1942, especially pp. 126 ff.), that the hero's combat with a three-headed monster is the transformation into myth of an archaic initiation ritual. That this initiation does not always belong to the "heroic" type, appears, among other things, from the British Columbian parallels mentioned by Dumezil (pp. 129-30), where shamanic initiation is also involved. If, in Christian mythology, St. George fights and kills the dragon "heroically," other saints achieve the same result without fighting (cf. the French legends of St. Samson, St. Marguerite, St. Bie", etc.; Paul Se"billot, Le Folk-lore de France, I (Paris, 1904), p, 468; III (Paris, 1906), 298, 299. On the other hand, we must not forget that, apart from its possible role in the rites and myths of heroic initiation, the dragon, in many other traditions (East Asiatic, Indian, African, and others) is given a cosmological symbolism: it symbolizes the involution, the preformal modality, of the universe, the undivided "One" of pre-Creation (cf. Ananda K. Coomaraswamy, The Darker Side of Dawn> Washington, 1935; "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight: Indra and Namuci," Speculum (Cambridge, Mass.), Jan., 1944, pp. 1-23). This is why snakes and dragons are nearly everywhere identified with the "masters of the ground," with the autochthons against whom the newcomers, the "conquerors," those who are to form (i.e., create) the occupied territories, must fight. (On the assimilation of snakes and autochthons, cf. Charles Autran, L'Epopte indoue, Paris, 1946, pp. 66 ff.).
[...]
Cosmic Cycles and History
The meaning acquired by history in the frame of the various archaic civilizations is nowhere more clearly revealed than in the theories of the great cosmic cycles, which we mentioned in passing in the preceding chapter. We must return to these theories, for it is here that two distinct orientations first define themselves: the one traditional, adumbrated (without ever having been clearly formulated) in all primitive cultures, that of cyclical time, periodically regenerating itself ad injinitum; the other modem, that of finite time, a fragment (though itself also cyclical) between two atemporal eternities. Almost all these theories of the "Great Time" are found in conjunction with the myth of successive ages, the "age of gold" always occurring at the beginning of the cycle, close to the paradigmatic illud tempus. In the two doctrines that of cyclical time, and that of limited cyclical time this age of gold is recoverable; in other words, it is repeatable, an infinite number of times in the former doctrine, once only in the latter. We do not mention these facts for their intrinsic interest, great as it is, but to clarify the meaning of history from the point of view of either doctrine.
[....]
The problem raised in this final chapter exceeds the limits that we had assigned to the present essay. Hence we can only outline it. In short, it would be necessary to confront "historical man" (modem man), who consciously and voluntarily creates history, with the man of the traditional civilizations, who, as we have seen, had a negative attitude toward history. Whether he abolishes it periodically, whether he devaluates it by perpetually finding transhistorical models and archetypes for it, whether, finally, he gives it a metahistorical meaning (cyclical theory, eschatological significations, and so on), the man of the traditional civilizations accorded the historical event no value in itself; in other words, he did not regard it as a specific category of his own mode of existence. Now, to compare these two types of humanity implies an analysis of all the modern "historicisms," and such an analysis, to be really useful, would carry us too far from the principal theme of this study. We are nevertheless forced to touch upon the problem of man as consciously and voluntarily historical, because the modern world is, at the present moment, not entirely converted to historicism; we are even witnessing a conflict between the two views: the archaic conception, which we should designate as archetypal and anhistorical; and the modern, post-Hegelian conception,
which seeks to be historical.
.....
The foregoing chapters have abundantly illustrated the way in which men of the traditional civilizations tolerated history. The reader will remember that they defended themselves against it, either by periodically abolishing it through repetition of the cosmogony and a periodic regeneration of time or by giving historical events a metahistorical meaning, a meaning that was not only consoling but was above all coherent, that is, capable of being fitted into a well-consolidated system in which the cosmos and man's existence had each its raison d'etre. We must add that this traditional conception of a defense against history, this way of tolerating historical events, continued to prevail in the world down to a tim^ very close to our own; and that it still continues to console the agricultural ( = traditional) societies of Europe, which obstinately adhere to an anhistorical position and are, by that fact, exposed to the violent attacks of all revolutionary ideologies. The Christianity of
the popular European strata never succeeded in abolishing either the theory of the archetype (which transformed a historical personage into an exemplary hero and a historical event into a mythical category) or the cyclical and astral theories (according to which history was justified, and the sufferings provoked by it assumed an eschatological meaning).
.....
Primitive myths often mention the birth, activity, and disappearance of a god or a hero whose "civilizing" gestures are thenceforth repeated ad injinitum. This comes down to saying that archaic man also knows a history, although it is a primordial history, placed in a mythical time. Archaic man's rejection of history, his refusal to situate himself in a concrete,
historical time, would, then, be the symptom of a precocious weariness, a fear of movement and spontaneity; in short, placed between accepting the historical condition and its risks on the one hand, and his reidentification with the modes of nature on the other, he would choose such a reidentification.
.....
In the last analysis, modern man, who accepts history or claims to accept it, can reproach archaic man, imprisoned within the
mythical horizon of archetypes and repetition, with his creative impotence, or, what amounts to the same thing, his inability to accept the risks entailed by every creative act. For the modern man can be creative only insofar as he is historical; in other words, all creation is forbidden him except that which has its source in his own freedom; and, consequently, everything is denied him except the freedom to make history by making himself. To these criticisms raised by modern man, the man of the traditional civilizations could reply by a countercriticism that would at the same time be a defense of the type of archaic existence. It is becoming more and more doubtful, he might say, if modern man can make history. On the contrary, the more modern 12 he becomes that is, without defenses against the terror of history the less chance he has of himself making history. For history either makes itself ( as the result of the seed sown by acts that occurred in the past, several centuries or even several millennia ago; we will cite the consequences of the discovery of agriculture or metallurgy, of the Industrial Revolution in the eighteenth century, and so on) or it tends to be made by an increasingly smaller number of men who not only prohibit the mass of their contemporaries from directly or indirectly intervening in the history they are making (or which the small group is making), but in addition have at their disposal means sufficient to force each individual to endure, for his own part, the consequences of this history, that is, to live immediately and continuously in dread of history. Modern man's boasted freedom to make history is illusory for nearly the whole of the human race.
........
Thus, for traditional man, modern man affords the type neither of a free being nor of a creator of history. On the contrary, the man of the archaic civilizations can be proud of his mode of existence, which allows him to be free and to create. He is free to be no longer what he was, free to annul his own history through periodic abolition of time and collective regeneration. This freedom in respect to his own history which, for the modern, is not only irreversible but constitutes human existence cannot be claimed by the man who wills to be historical. We know that the archaic and traditional societies granted freedom
each year to begin a new, a "pure" existence, with virgin possibilities. And there is no question of seeing in this an imitation of nature, which also undergoes periodic regeneration, "beginning anew" each spring, with each spring recovering all its powers intact.
........
Furthermore, archaic man certainly has the right to consider himself more creative than modern man, who sees himself as creative only in respect to history. Every year, that is, archaic man takes part in the repetition of the cosmogony, the creative act par excellence. We may even add that, for a certain time, man was creative on the cosmic plane, imitating this periodic cosmogony (which he also repeated on all the other planes of life, cf. pp. 80 ff.) and participating in it. We should also bear in mind the "creationistic" implications of the Oriental philosophies and techniques (especially the Indian), which thus find a place in the same traditional horizon. The East unanimously rejects the idea of the ontological irreducibility of
the existent, even though it too sets out from a sort of "existentialism" (i.e., from acknowledging suffering as the situation of any possible cosmic condition) . Only, the East does not accept the destiny of the human being as final and irreducible. Oriental techniques attempt above all to annul or transcend the human condition. In this respect, it is justifiable to speak not only of freedom (in the positive sense) or deliverance (in the negative sense) but actually of creation; for what is involved is creating a new man and creating him on a suprahuman plane, a man-god, such as the imagination of historical man has never dreamed it possible to create.
http://www.archive.org/details/cosmosan ... y012848mbp
The illusion from which we are seeking to extricate ourselves is not that constituted by the realm of space and time, but that which comes from failing to know that realm from the standpoint of a higher vision. -L.H.

lizzie
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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by lizzie » Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:44 pm

Gray Cloud said: Note the word 'ancient' in the thread title.
You show me where the Maya talk about Sun cycles and I will decide whether they are crap or not.
Cotterell based his theories on sunspot cycles from his translations of the Lid of the Palenque. I am not able to read ancient Mayan texts so that I cannot confirm or deny his theories. Does this mean that you think that Cotterell is incorrect (full of crap) and that Mayans did not know about sunspot cycles? Is the Lid of the Palenque not "ancient" enough to be considered on this thread?

Even NASA is warning us about upcoming solar cycle; but it’s nice to know at last that NASA, too, is full of crap. ;)

Noble Realms
http://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?id=6235
Maurice Cotterell wrote the above book which I read back in '98. It is no longer in print but I advise snatching up a copy due to the extraordinary information presented. He explains & theorizes that the Mayans were well aware of the Sun Spot Cycles and even points out many Mayan/Aztec statues that seem to be contorted or deformed. Coterell speculates that these deformities were probably a result from over-active sun spot cycles that somehow mutated the DNA of the native peoples.

If the Earth is bombarded by solar winds, gamma rays and a host of other energies from the sun, then increased solar activity may begin to trigger these defects and mutations. I hope it's about evolution and not about depopulation!
Inside 2004-2012 Solar Window
http://www.mayanmajix.com/art1647.html
In an article published in AR, early in 2004, I presented the case that we are in the final leg of a solar cycle. I called the 8-year period from 2004 to 2012, ‘The Portal’. That article presented the results of 27 years of research into the Mayan calendar system, which led to investigations into the sunspot cycle, the transit of Venus and their respective relationships to natural disasters.

The last pieces of the puzzle did not fall into place until 2002. That year, I finally realized that the 2012 end date of the Mayan calendar was also the peak of the next solar maximum and the second leg of the Venus Transit. Extensive research into the sunspot cycle had shown me that the 11-year solar maximums had multiple effects on the earth and on human beings. I found that everything from wars and natural disasters to fluctuations in the stock market move in tandem with the sunspot cycle.
2012: NASA sees start of “new solar cycle”
http://parallelnormal.wordpress.com/200 ... lar-cycle/
NASA today published a forecast for a “big and intense” new solar cycle in 2011 or 2012, which its suggests will wreak havoc on satellite GPS and telecommunications, power grids and air traffic. NASA says the next solar cycle, Solar Cycle 24, “could make itself felt as never before.”
Solar Cycle 24
http://www.worldwidewaterplan.com/solarcycle24.htm
A picture of how a solar flare can affect the earth. In 2012 - solar cycle 24 will send a giant solar flare towards the earth as it has for billions of years. The Sun changes its magnetic poles every time Jupiter orbits 11.86 year Jupiter Cycle - 11.5 year Sun Spot Cycle as 11.5 years has varied... Are Jupiter and the Sun responsible for solar flares that can affect the earth and ice ages? Jupiter, Saturn, and the Sun will change the magnetic poles of the Earth itself as it has for 4.6 billion years. This polarity shift is part of the hidden stability of our Solar System. The Earth shall move from the inside out and new Mountains and gorges shall form. We live in a time many of our ancestors talked about.
Unlocking of The Secrets of the Solar Cycle
http://www.thirdeyeconcept.com/news/ind ... topic=3322
The Mayan Calendar is based on the golden mean. The golden mean ratio is found in all of nature and is the underlying design of all things created in the natural world. A quick look at the golden mean numbers, are 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13 and one can see that the next number will be the sum of the previous two and that will be 21. The number 13 was the root number used by the Mayans and, if we add 13 to 13 we get 26 and if we add another 13 we get 39, and so forth, to get 52,65,78,91 etc.

Now the number 13 is also the number we find in the relationship between the Earth and the Planet Venus. In 8 earth years, Venus revolves around the sun making 13 orbits in that time.

The Mayans used multiples of 13, and by using this as their root number they set the time of each of the 5 suns at 5,126 years each, giving us 25,630 years total. Is it also happenstance that One Great Platonic Year of the zodiac adds up 25,925 years?

The Mayans believed that that sun had died and been reborn 4 times previously and that we are now in the time period which ends the 5th sun in 2012.

In Mr. Hart’s research, he keeps bring us back to Venus, because the Mayans were not just obsessed about the sun and its cycles but Venus and its cycles as well. If the reader recalls the Golden Mean number of 8 is the ratio between the orbits of the Earth and Venus as they both revolve around the sun, is it surprising to find that a very important event called the Venus Transit just happens to end in 2012? This event happens in two parts with an 8 years span between, which is this case was 2004.

The Mayans placed Venus in a very important position in their belief system and its crucial to understanding the solar cycle. The Long Count which ends in 2012 began with what they called “The Birth of Venus.” The cycles of Venus and the cycles of the sun are timed to be markers and that is why the Mayans focused on not just one but both. The transit of Venus across the sun causes a perfect harmonic relationship between the three spheres.

Grey Cloud
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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:25 am

Hi Lizzie,
Please stop posting this crap in this thread.
As far as I am aware, even full-time academic Mayan scholars cannot read Mayan glyphs to the degree of detail and subtlety that Cotterell and his ilk are claiming. If you have any evidence to the contrary then provide it. In fact, I will go further and say that one of the reasons people such as Cotterell write such rubbish about the Maya is precisely because nobody other than academic scholars can contradict them and scholars don't get involved. They don't use Vedic material as this has been translated into English and other European languages and is widely available online and so can be checked easily.

Another point to consider is that the tomb of Pacal is not actually ancient. From the wiki article:
Sarcophagus
Among these finds was the lid of Pacal’s sarcophagus. In the image that covers it, Pacal lies on top of the “earth monster.” Below him are the open jaws of a jaguar, symbolizing Xibalba. Above him is the Celestial Bird, perched atop the Cosmic Tree (represented by a cross) which, in turn, holds a Serpent in its branches. Thus, in the image Pacal lies between two worlds: the heavens and the underworld. Also on the sarcophagus are Pacal’s ancestors, arraigned in a line going back six generations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_ ... ions#Rob83
For a sensible examination of the 2012 thing see:
http://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum/phpB ... 012#p11246 which contains the following link:
http://www.infinitelymystical.com/essay ... part1.html
The essay at the end of the above link is probably the best I have read on the subject of 2012.

NASA was, a few years ago, predicting a higher than normal sunspot maximum for 2011-2012. This prediction amounted to a 'kiss of death' for sunspots as the Sun has been devoid of them since.
Today's Sun:
08 Feb 09
08 Feb 09
Noblerealms. A link to a forum is not evidence of anything.
The mayanmajix article does not provide a single reference.
The parallelnormal link is over 12 months old and is only another blog.
The worldwidewaterplan does not provide any sources and his model of the Sun appears to be the mainstream nuclear reactor version.
The thirdeyeconcept link is to a forum post from 2 years ago.

I ask you again, unless you can come up with some ancient textual evidence for planetary catstrophe, please refrain from posting this crap in this thread.

P.S. The reason I call this stuff 'crap' is because the forum rules prohibit me from calling it anything stronger.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

Grey Cloud
Posts: 2477
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Location: NW UK

Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:34 am

Hi Lizzie,
Just in case you are interested in Mayan scholarship rather than merely speculation, lies and bullshit about the Maya, here is a link to a scholarly essay on Palenque which provides an excellent insight into the complexities and difficulties involved in deciphering Mayan glyphs:
http://www.mesoweb.com/articles/guenter/TI.html
http://www.mesoweb.com/articles/guenter/TI.pdf
The sarcophagus is discussed beginning on page 55 of the pdf.
Please feel free to share any insights into sunspot cycles which you get from reading this essay.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

lizzie
Guest

Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by lizzie » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:43 am

Gray Cloud said: I ask you again, unless you can come up with some ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe, please refrain from posting this crap in this thread.
Since your scholarly texts don’t discuss a repetitive sunspot cycle, I should assume that it doesn’t exist? Or I should assume that your choice of “ancient texts” is the “be all and end all” of "proper" interpretations? ;)

Perhaps the next 10 years of solar activity will prove whether or not Maurice Cotterell’s interpretations of Mayan texts are correct. Stay tuned.

Grey Cloud
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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:20 pm

Hi Stefan,
Thanks for another epic post.
I've just read the Eliade book and while the introduction, as posted by you, looked very interesting, I didn't think that the book itself lived up to the intro.
To me, he appears as yet another author who is determined to force the ancient belief systems into his own theory. His own theory is too simplistic, consisting of his notions of the Eternal Return and the Sacred and the Profane.
His understanding of cyclical time appears to be one of clockwork time and so his Eternal Return becomes just a Regular Reset and everything begins from the beginning again. I view cyclical time as more analogous to the musical scale where it goes from do, re, mi, fa, so, la, ti and the next 'do' is an octave above the previous one. Variations on a theme is the way I think of it. (See p59 and especially the footnote).
His understanding of the yugas seems to be a bit off as he states that the yuga is the smallest unit and he divides things into three which he calls 'birth, wear and destruction'. I have no idea what the official Vedic smallest unit is but is at least a day. I understand things as being in four parts, e.g. midnight to dawn, dawn to midday, midday to dusk and dusk to midnight; four phases of the moon; winter, spring, summer and autumn. These equate to preparation, birth and growth, maturity and reproduction, decline and death.
In my, not great, understanding of the Vedic system, each of these, e.g. summer, has the same four phases within it. Also everything has an ascending and a descending cycle. This is the case in other cultures too. He doesn't make any reference to Precession though he uses the term 'Great Year' throughout the book.
Another problem I had was his over-emphasis of the 're-creation of Creation'. To a certain extent he is correct but I would argue that a better way of looking at it is 'Creation creating'. To my mind these ancient cultures thought of themselves as being part of Creation (as
opposed to merely living in it) and that creation did not stop after the act of Creation but was and is an ongoing process.
Related to this, most, if not all, ceremonies, rituals, etc are done at specific times in order to re-synchronise the person or culture with the cycles of Nature or Universal time, if you will. This is a point which comes out in the essay I was reading about the Navajo.

At the beginning of the books he identifies several archetypes but does not really follow through with them after the first section. Nor does he attempt to identify what they symbolise. He doesn't, as far as I can recall, give any examples of what he calls 'enemy brothers' which I would interpret as being the same person battling himself (higher and
lower selves?). It is similar story with his 'female', he doesn't attempt to identify what she is an archetype of, it is sufficient that she is an archetype.
Ditto with 'water' which he mentions frequently at the beginning of the book. He makes no attempt to explain why the ancients all use the word 'water', e.g. what water? water from where?
With the 'dragon' he does attempt an explanation but he lumps all dragons together as always representing the same thing, i.e. the forces of chaos. At the beginning of the book he uses the 'chaos'in the correct sense, 'undifferentiated' is the word he uses, and opposes this to cosmos. However, throughout the rest of the book he seems to chop and change and sometimes use 'chaos' in its modern sense of disorder.
There are subtle differences in the ways different ancient cultures use the dragon or serpent but they are all ultimately related to the same concept(s).For example the dragon can represent the male aspect of the aether with the water(s) representing the female aspect. Dragons breathe fire because Fire is 'life' or the anima mundi or the Logos. Or the dragon can represent the matter which is in the aether as in the Jormungandr of Nordic myth who lies at the bottom of the World Ocean. Tiamat was a female. Same thing looked at in a different way. I am reminded of Achilles at the end of the Iliad and the fight with the river god Scamander which I didn't understand. This is where Achilles 'dies' and / or is baptised. Scamander represents the waters and Achilles is his own dragon as he is wearing the armour of Hephaestus. Hera sends Hephaestus to defeat Scamander so Achilles is drawing on the
potential of the Universal Mind (female, Hera) and using his own creative energy, spirit, Fire to control the waters (aether). (I'm still working on that part so don't quote me).
(I hope Seasmith is looking in :D ) Ask yourself why a human sperm resembles a comet.

Another failing of Eliade was his lack of understanding of what a Hero is.
In numerous traditions (in Greece, for example) the souls of the common dead no longer possess a 'memory'; that is, they lose what may be called their historical individuality. The transformation of the dead into ghosts, and so on, in a certain sense signifies their
reidentification with the impersonal archetype of the ancestor. The fact that in the Greek tradition only heroes preserve their personality (i.e., their memory) after death, is easy to understand: having, in this life on Earth, performed no actions which were exemplary, the hero retains the memory of them, since, from a certain point of view, these acts were impersonal.p47.
The reason why the Hero (capital aitch) retains his memory is becasue he has died the second death. He is not a Hero until he has died to live. He has control over his own destiny and is now a 'citizen' of the higher world. The denizens of the Underworld are the people on Earth, as looked down upon by the Hero in the upper world. The majority of peole on Earth at any given period are grey and apathetic, they do not have a personality other than that provided by their parents or their culture or some other third party; they do not think for themselves and react rather than act. This second death is also known as the little death (le petit mort) which is also a name for the orgasm.
Because he doesn't understand what a hero is it follows that he has no idea what initiation is about.
Finally, the coincidence of initiations - in which the lighting of the 'new fire' plays an especially important part - with the period of the New Year is explained both by the presence of the dead (secret and initiatory societies being at the same time representatives of the
ancestors) and by the very structure of these ceremonies, which always suppose a 'death' and a 'resurrection', a 'new birth', a 'new man'.p69
The resurrection part is superfluous - you are born again but this time you do not emerge from the waters of your biological mother's womb but from the waters of mother Earth's or mother Nature's womb. There is no
coincidence involved in initiations, in fact there is no such thing as coincidence full stop.

P.S. I hope you liked the image of the Sun I posted earlier, I thought the colour might appeal :D
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

mague
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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by mague » Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:06 am

Grey Cloud wrote: Another failing of Eliade was his lack of understanding of what a Hero is.
In numerous traditions (in Greece, for example) the souls of the common dead no longer possess a 'memory'; that is, they lose what may be called their historical individuality. The transformation of the dead into ghosts, and so on, in a certain sense signifies their
reidentification with the impersonal archetype of the ancestor. The fact that in the Greek tradition only heroes preserve their personality (i.e., their memory) after death, is easy to understand: having, in this life on Earth, performed no actions which were exemplary, the hero retains the memory of them, since, from a certain point of view, these acts were impersonal.p47.
The reason why the Hero (capital aitch) retains his memory is becasue he has died the second death. He is not a Hero until he has died to live. He has control over his own destiny and is now a 'citizen' of the higher world. The denizens of the Underworld are the people on Earth, as looked down upon by the Hero in the upper world. The majority of peole on Earth at any given period are grey and apathetic, they do not have a personality other than that provided by their parents or their culture or some other third party; they do not think for themselves and react rather than act. This second death is also known as the little death (le petit mort) which is also a name for the orgasm.
Because he doesn't understand what a hero is it follows that he has no idea what initiation is about.
Finally, the coincidence of initiations - in which the lighting of the 'new fire' plays an especially important part - with the period of the New Year is explained both by the presence of the dead (secret and initiatory societies being at the same time representatives of the
ancestors) and by the very structure of these ceremonies, which always suppose a 'death' and a 'resurrection', a 'new birth', a 'new man'.p69
The resurrection part is superfluous - you are born again but this time you do not emerge from the waters of your biological mother's womb but from the waters of mother Earth's or mother Nature's womb. There is no
coincidence involved in initiations, in fact there is no such thing as coincidence full stop.

P.S. I hope you liked the image of the Sun I posted earlier, I thought the colour might appeal :D
Hello,

this is a very simple picture indeed. Buddhism offers an almost scientific description of the mechanics, bardos and lokas.

Looking at shamanic, buddhistic and hinduistic tradition it seems the "spiritual world" has a map/mandala. According to the buddhists the "deathzone" is divided into the six lokas. Just like a house with six rooms. And the house has doors. Doors to the "outside" and doors inside.

Basically it is shamanic tradition or rather initiation to enter this "house" and to leave it again. It is a global phenomenon that shamans all over the world describe their initiation as death. Then some beings remove their flesh from their bones and all is pain/horror movie. Those with the talent to be shamans still make their way back. Shamans consider themself as dead in relation to other people. The cause why they are still able to breathe and walk on the planet may differ. There are shamans who seek initiation intentionally and there are those who where "called". Those who where called tell us that there is something that creates shamans since forever.

The classic hero, lets take heracles for example, is able to enter and leave the deathzone. He doesnt die, he is usually a warrior with the strenght and skill to survive this journey. Heracles entering the domain of hades and killing a dog there is true heroism. He intentionally enters death to hunt a creature. And he is coming back from that place. It is not the wish of heracles to do this. It is, because he has a mission from someone else. You will find this mind-set in the world of the Samurai as well. Just as medival knights face death as servant of their lady. The hero seeks to use his skills without any ego. There is no ego when you serve.

The buddhist lamas are peaceful. They just die, but have highly trained mental skills. They configured themselfs to not loose "self-consciousness" and enter the flow of rebirth intentionally. As priests their intention is serving as well. Serving the people.

The buddhist seekers of nirvana do the same, but with the intention to avoid the flow of rebirth. They seek the other outer door of the deathzone. The door to nirvana.

The common dying person enters the deathzone as well. But here might happen what ever is planned for him. Either rebirth or nirvana or even leaving the zone alive like a hero or maybe as shaman. I think its based on rules and higher intentions.

The world of the ghosts is divided as well. Our physical body is accumulation energy over a lifetime. All joy and all anger will leave a signature in the physical body. This energy remains. The flesh but especially the bones keept that energy until they desintegrate. And even then this energy is flowing back to earth. This is it when natives tell you that their ancestors are always around.
Then there is the layer of chi. This isnt bound to the physical body but is able to ramain under certain conditions. This is what comes closest to the western picture of a ghost.
And there is what western people call soul. The godly part of us. Sometimes they get lost as well and wander as ghosts. There are more categories, but i think it enough to understand that there is more then black and white.

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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:47 am

Serpents in the news today:
Fossils Reveal Mammoth Snake
Fossils from northeastern Colombia reveal the biggest snake ever discovered: a behemoth that stretched 42 to 45 feet long, reaching more than 2,500 pounds.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/02/ ... 5432.shtml
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

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webolife
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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by webolife » Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:08 pm

Titanoboa harken's to an earlier time of dragons... a missionary friend of mine reports firsthand sightings of retriculating pythons deep in the jungles of Burma [now Myanmar] reaching lengths of greater than 40 feet, and crocodiles up to 30 feet.
It has always interested me that the Chinese dragon is generally a wingless serpent, and not a lizard. I realize the EU has a different [aerial plasma] view of the origin of dragon myths, but there is plenty of evidence to suggest that earlier reptiles of all types were able to grow to immense sizes during the pre-deluge subtropical era of earth history. The Ice Age upset this, but the subsequent warming trend to today makes for interesting speculation about future grow rates of these and other creatures. And what interest are the ancient texts if not to inform our future?
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.

Grey Cloud
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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:21 pm

Hi Webolife,
Snakes alive! The question I ask myself is what eats a 40ft snake? A 40ft mongoose? :shock:
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

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webolife
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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by webolife » Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:45 pm

"There's always a bigger fish..." Star Wars 1
Good thing snakes don't have to eat much... but I'm thinking they would have enough trouble just tending to a brood of eggs.
Smaller mammals/scavengers would prove adversarial enough.
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.

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