Testing the Velikovski Heritage

[SpaceTravellor]

Hi Steven - and thanks for the reply!

Question: Would you mind sharing the names of some of the cosmologists and/or comparative mythologists who subscribe to your theory?

Well, here you really hit me on a sore point. My hope for joining the Thunderbolt Society was to find some of the persons mentioned, and I´ve found some interested members on this forum who can follow me on my ideas. I´ve contacted a lot of possibly interested scholared mythologists, but without any good luck so far.

Steven, my problems are really that I´m "digging to deep or high" compared to "common knowledge on the mountain" and the best response I can get, is really from the Mythology of native people.

Though, I can recommend John O`Neill, author of "The Night of the Gods", published in 1893, which can be read online here if you are interested in reading the mythological background and theory for my sites.
http://www.archive.org/stream/nightgods ... 6/mode/1up

Observation: Reading your posts here, you seem to exhibit some of the traits of a class "A" (controller) personality, i.e., "I'm right and you're wrong, and that's just the way it is." And, of course, that's your business. But it probably won't get you very far with other researchers or life in general, for that matter.

Steven, if you have an idea on which you are certain, would you easily give up your idea? Well, I don´t! And that´s why people can take me for being "a controller person", but nothing is more wrong, really.

I just urge everybody to meditate a while over my ideas on my websites and maybe get some very alternative and mostly forgotten mythological knowledge back from the past.

That´s all there is to it, Steven.

All the Best from Ivar

[SpaceTravellor]

@Grey Cloud,
Thanks for the reply.

Admittedly he does sometimes let his passion for the subject get the better of him (a trait which I'm sure he would be the first to admit).

I think I have almost "admitted" this here:

Steven, if you have an idea on which you are certain, would you easily give up your idea? Well, I don´t! And that´s why people can take me for being "a controller person", but nothing is more wrong, really.

All the Best from Ivar

[StevenJay]

Re your question: Are you going to ask Dave Talbott the same question?

Why? I and most of the members of this forum already know who many of them are. They're talked about and referenced here all the time.

Re your 'observation': I correspond regularly with Ivar and find him witty, open and generous. There again, I'm not the expert psychologist that you seem to be. Admittedly he does sometimes let his passion for the subject get the better of him (a trait which I'm sure he would be the first to admit).

Expert psychologist? Oh, please. I base my personal observation on Ivar's approach so far on this forum and 60 years of life experience, which I feel has given me at least a modicum of understanding of human nature. The Illuminati are undoubtedly very passionate about their beliefs too, but that doesn't excuse their behavior. Religious zealots are over-the-top passionate about their beliefs, but that doesn't excuse their behavior either! No Ph.D. is required to see that.

Would you care to elaborate on why you don't find his information to be 'very compelling' given that the thread title is 'Disagreement with the Saturn Myth' and not 'What I think of Ivar'?

This isn't about what I think or don't think about Ivar. It's about the veracity of the material he's promoting. And when confronted with skepticism, he keeps falling back on the same argument; Just meditate and re-read my material over and over with an open mind. Then you're sure to see things my way. Sorry, but that's just not a valid defense for a supposedly science-based position,IMO. And, last time I checked, this is a science-based forum.

As an aside, I'm one of the most open and esoteric-minded people I know. I identify more with things spiritual and esoteric than I do with the hard sciences, and that wasn't always the case. In fact, I feel that the esoteric must eventually be once agin included in the scientific process, though, with utmost care. I've been retired for some time now, which gives me a LOT of time to meditate quite deeply and regularly. At this point in my life, it's akin to breathing.

For further elaboration, see DT's and DS's replies above. They pretty much took the words right out of my mouth.

- S

[SpaceTravellor]

@Steven,

You wrote:

And when confronted with skepticism, he keeps falling back on the same argument; Just meditate and re-read my material over and over with an open mind. Then you're sure to see things my way. Sorry, but that's just not a valid defense for a supposedly science-based position,

What else can I do when being confronted with scepticism than to take a look at the site where all my text and illustrations can be studyed?

Besides this I´ve also posted some arguments on both this tread and in the "Saturn Myth Confusion"- tread.

- I can`t force you to look at anything - and I cant force you to be sincerely interested - and I´can`t hinder you in being a sceptic even if you really have meditated on the issues - I can´t force you to see what I can see . . .

I identify more with things spiritual and esoteric than I do with the hard sciences, and that wasn't always the case. In fact, I feel that the esoteric must eventually be once agin included in the scientific process,

If you have this approach to gathering knowledge, I can comfort you by telling, that Dave Talbott means that my approach to my issues is very much esoteric and very little scientific . . . as if the Saturn Myth is science.

Me, myself, I just think my approach is very natural and simple, just by watching a star atlas and combine the northern and southern contours of the Milky Way Galaxy to the Mythological major deities of "the Greatest Father" and "the Greatest Mother" of Creation.

It´s really is that simple and that natural - and so difficult to tell because the modern human being have lost this natural connection to the Cosmos and lost the natural connection to the meaning of the genuine Myths.

All the Best from Ivar

[SpaceTravellor]

Hello All,

THE FORMER TREAD AND TOPIC, "SATURN MYTH CONFUSION" IS NOW ASSEMBLED IN THIS TREAD "TESTING THE VELIKOVSKI HERITAGE".

- I´m looking forward to further debate here.

All the Best from Ivar

[Grey Cloud]

SJ: Question: Would you mind sharing the names of some of the cosmologists and/or comparative mythologists who subscribe to your theory?

GC: Re your question: Are you going to ask Dave Talbott the same question?

SJ: Why? I and most of the members of this forum already know who many of them are. They're talked about and referenced here all the time.

Oh, you mean Cardona, Cochrane and v.d. Sluijs? Don't make me laugh. Cardona's Saturn theory is different from Talbott's; I'm not sure what exactly Cochrane's flavour is; and Sluijs' TPODs never contain enough meat to figure out what he's actually trying to say.

[StevenJay]

Oh, you mean Cardona, Cochrane and v.d. Sluijs? Don't make me laugh. Cardona's Saturn theory is different from Talbott's; I'm not sure what exactly Cochrane's flavour is; and Sluijs' TPODs never contain enough meat to figure out what he's actually trying to say.

Yeah - so? The point is, they're all exploringthe same basic idea, approaching it from different angles, pursuing some semblance of truth. But, hey - laugh all you want. It's good for ya!

For what it's worth, I personally became fascinated with the Saturn Theory several years ago due to the plethora of, what I consider to be, very strong evidence (primarily Talbott's) that has been, and continues to be, gathered over the past several decades. And, the more I read, the more a small, internal, long-silent memory bell began ringing. Like energies attracting, and all that (you know, that esoteric thang).

At any rate, I think I've shared all I have to share in this thread. Besides, it's getting redundant and starting to sound a bit like like Monty Python's [url2=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM]argument sketch[/url2] (No, it isn't! Yes, it is! No, it isn't! It is so! . . .)

[moses]

And, the more I read, the more a small, internal, long-silent memory bell began ringing. Like energies attracting, and all that (you know, that esoteric thang).
StevenJay
I've looked into the esoteric thing and I find that people who have raised
kundalini don't describe Velikovsky-type visions. It is like all the trauma
humanity went through is blocked from the consciousness of the kundalini
inspired mind. Like a collective consciousness of humanity is accessed by
kundalini, but even this collective consciousness suffers from repression
of past trauma. And I wonder whether studying Velikovsky and Saturn System
will start to crack this repression, and so I read with interest about your
'small, internal, long-silent memory bell began ringing'.
Mo

[Grey Cloud]

Oh, you mean Cardona, Cochrane and v.d. Sluijs? Don't make me laugh. Cardona's Saturn theory is different from Talbott's; I'm not sure what exactly Cochrane's flavour is; and Sluijs' TPODs never contain enough meat to figure out what he's actually trying to say.

Yeah - so? The point is, they're all exploringthe same basic idea, approaching it from different angles, pursuing some semblance of truth. But, hey - laugh all you want. It's good for ya!

For what it's worth, I personally became fascinated with the Saturn Theory several years ago due to the plethora of, what I consider to be, very strong evidence (primarily Talbott's) that has been, and continues to be, gathered over the past several decades. And, the more I read, the more a small, internal, long-silent memory bell began ringing. Like energies attracting, and all that (you know, that esoteric thang).

At any rate, I think I've shared all I have to share in this thread. Besides, it's getting redundant and starting to sound a bit like like Monty Python's [url2=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM]argument sketch[/url2] (No, it isn't! Yes, it is! No, it isn't! It is so! . . .)

I was thinking more in terms of scholarship than esotericism. Do you read the source material or just the ST-ers?

[Grey Cloud]

And, the more I read, the more a small, internal, long-silent memory bell began ringing. Like energies attracting, and all that (you know, that esoteric thang).
StevenJay
I've looked into the esoteric thing and I find that people who have raised
kundalini don't describe Velikovsky-type visions. It is like all the trauma
humanity went through is blocked from the consciousness of the kundalini
inspired mind. Like a collective consciousness of humanity is accessed by
kundalini, but even this collective consciousness suffers from repression
of past trauma. And I wonder whether studying Velikovsky and Saturn System
will start to crack this repression, and so I read with interest about your
'small, internal, long-silent memory bell began ringing'.
Mo

Hi Mo,
And your proof for the existence of this collective trauma would be? BTW not everyone is afraid of death.

[flyingcloud]

if I may interject some commentary and questions for further self enlightenment

I have contributed to the cause, purchasing and reading books and purchasing and viewing videos, and I may have missed some things so please forgive my ignorance, I certainly do appreciate the feedback

I too find that when the opportunity to convey EU/PC theories to the general populace, those who recognize the topic or those who are curious enough to do their own initial research often come back with an initial response of the Velikovski/Saturn system as a prerequisite for EU theory and dismiss much of what I have to present due to prujudices and fixations on their disbeleif of the Saturn Theory making it quite difficult to continue with any meaningful conversation regarding the discoveries and contribultions of PC and subsequently EU in regards to conventional thinking.
That being said...

are there any other systems, planetary, or stellar, that we have observed that maintain a current polar alignment? from what I have seen all systems have been observed to be stellar equatorial plane or semi-equatorial plane orbit, or even examples of planet/moon configurations with polar allignments

secondly, I try to envision what the view from the northern hemisphere would be within a Saturn based polar configuration as illustrated by Talbott

I have two questions,
first the rings - such prominent features as observed from a southerly pole orientation would encircle the planet and would be a major player in the illustration of such images. Am I missing this? And with the reflection of sunlight on the planet to cause the crescent shape that circled the planet daily would that not be apparent within the ring structure as well or was this allignment pre-ring development

secondly with respect to the sunlight reflection and the polar configuration with Saturn Mars and Venus all with observable crescents would it not be probable that the light from the sun also be apparent on the earth if there was enough light to reflect off the other planets to produce an observable crescent? I understand the distance from the sun would have been substantially different, but it seems odd to me that even with a plasma sheath from Saturn that earthlings would see a reflection of said sunlight on the planets without actually observing the source of said light from various degrees throughout the rotational day or having observable differences on light intensity on the earth itself

[SpaceTravellor]

@StevenJay,

For what it's worth, I personally became fascinated with the Saturn Theory several years ago due to the plethora of, what I consider to be, very strong evidence (primarily Talbott's) that has been, and continues to be, gathered over the past several decades. And, the more I read, the more a small, internal, long-silent memory bell began ringing. Like energies attracting, and all that (you know, that esoteric thang).

What kind of "strong evidence" is it if the "Velikovsky Society" replace superior Milky Way deities for being inferior planetary deities?

- In Mythology there is major deities and minor deities. The major deities is called Giants or "Great" because they belong to the telling of the Milky Way contours, the largest figures we can observe on the night Sky.

The Earth hemisphere is divided and it shows different contours: On the north it shows a great mythological Milky Way male figur and on the southern hemisphere the Milky Way contour shows a great Milky Way female figure. This is why the egyptians also divided the kingdom in The Northern and The Southern, or Upper Egypt and Lower Egypt.
http://www.native-science.net/Forefather.Worship.htm

- In Roman Mythology, the northern Milky Way figure was called Saturn/Saturnus and the southern Milky Way figure was called Opis/Venus. It is these 2 superior figures/deities "The Velikovsky Society" confuses for being planetary deities and thereby reduces the genuine Story of Creation regarding the Milky Way to the pure non sense - and still they are trying to call this confusion for being science and scientifical evidence.

Not surpricingly, this non sense got a massive critigue when launched.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worlds_in_ ... l_reaction

Regarding "the sweet bell ringing" if anything, I get a rather crackled sound in my ears ...

All the Best from Ivar

[moses]

This reply for Grey Cloud and flyingcloud. Not related ?
And your proof for the existence of this collective trauma would be? BTW not everyone is afraid of death.
Grey Cloud
Mainly geological proof. Some might not fear death but an unresolved
trauma is shunned. If two consciousnesses can access the experiencing
of anyone from anytime then they form a collective. Accept maybe that
experiencing from some times is repressed due to the trauma undergone.
So does humanity have a collective consciousness that can be reached ?
And some of our dreams arise from this collective consciousness ? But
this same consciousness shuns the group trauma of Velikovskian times.

...first the rings - such prominent features as observed from a southerly pole orientation would encircle the planet and would be a major player in the illustration of such images.
flyingcloud
The double layer around Saturn or the Birkeland currents around Saturn,
in the Saturn System, in glow mode might have been too bright to allow
the Saturn rings to be very visible. Also, something caused the Saturn
System to break up and the rings around Saturn might have only formed
at or after the break up. Remember the rings would have looked like a
washer lying on a table looking from directly above the table. So like
a circle within a circle.
... I understand the distance from the sun would have been substantially different, but it seems odd to me that even with a plasma sheath from Saturn that earthlings would see a reflection of said sunlight on the planets without actually observing the source of said light from various degrees throughout the rotational day or having observable differences on light intensity on the earth itself
flyingcloud
One can see Saturn now with pictures from an orbitting satellite. The
light and dark is very clearly seen. Even if there was a lot of plasma
in glow mode around Saturn this contrast might still be quite evident.
I think there was a sort of day and night for the Earth dwellers of
those days. But one should expect descriptions of a bright day star.
No wait ! If the Sun was say 20 degrees away from Saturn then anywhere
on Earth above 20 degrees latitude would have light from the Sun 24 hrs
a day. On the equator there would be 12 hrs day and 12 hrs night but
the Sun would have a low angle in the sky and so the difference between
day and night might have been so small that the eyes might have
adjusted to the difference with little psychological impact of a day
and night. Still, something might be wrong.
Mo

[SpaceTravellor]

@Flyingcloud,

I don´t know of any other planetary alignments than the astronomically and with my firm believe of the Saturn Myth being very wrong, I just focus on the mythological misunderstandings.

Take a look here for the very basical confusions in the Velikovsky Society :
http://www.saturn-myth-delusion.net/Sat ... hology.htm

All the Best from Ivar

[SpaceTravellor]

@Everybody,

As an introduction to our topical issue, take a brief look here:

http://www.saturn-myth-delusion.net/Sat ... hology.htm
(Critics)
http://www.native-science.net/
(Mythological issues)

All the Best from Ivar