No, we do not agree. The projectile and the collimated beam both travel transverse to the train. Their path over the ground describes a diagonal. At no time do they "move diagonally." The projectile can be seen moving transversely from either frame, the burst of light cannot.Michael V wrote:Goldminer,
Thanks for your responses so far, although I am still not entirely satisfied.
(Note: I've adjusted the diagrams slightly, so please don't refer to the older ones.)
Hopefully, we all pretty much agree that a projectile will behave as shown. It points perpendicular from the train, but travels diagonally along the line BY.
Why can't the burst be seen, Goldminer? Because, Micheal V, it has to be detected to be seen.
No, it does not. The burst travels from B to X, which as I stated, moves with B. The burst travels from B to X at the speed of light. The path that the burst supposedly makes across the ground has to exceed the speed of light in order to reach Y when the actual burst reaches X.Michael V wrote:This diagram represents the Goldminer view of light's directional propagation (I hope, do correct me if I am mistaken). It is very similar to the projectile, except that light can only travel at c
I would be happy to explain: The burst only travels perpendicularly to the train. The omnidirectional light source has a spherically expanding wave front. This wave front expands at the speed of light. A ray of light is a portion of the expanding sphere that is absorbed by a given detector. (By the way, your idea of excluding detectors and observers is absurd.)Michael V wrote:Now then, this is where it gets interesting. What if we place a light bulb right next to the laser and "fire" them at the same time. Won't the light from the light-bulb travel away in all directions?. If so, I am having a hard time reconciling the spherical/circular propagation from the light-bulb with the inertial directionality of the laser light. Can you explain you point of view please.
There is a ray from the omnidirectional light source burst that accompanies the transverse laser pulse to X, which is in the train frame. They will both be detected at the same time in both frames when the pulses travel the distance from B to X (at the speed of light in the train frame), provided detectors happen to be at X in the train frame, and at Y in the track frame. The Y detector has to be placed specially in the track frame so that X happens to be there at Y exactly when the two pulses arrive. ( Actually the Y detector needs to be a series of detectors aligned along the tracks, and angled at the aberration angle in order to detect the pulses, since X and the arrival of the pulses will be moving by at your specified speed of 1/3 the speed of light.)
There is another ray of light from the omnidirectional light source burst that does travel at the angle you show for the ground path of the transverse traveling bursts. This wavefront ray does travel at the speed of light along that angle in the train frame. (If another collimated laser beam were to be fired simultaneously with the other bursts, at this angle, it would coincide with this ray.) You can use vector addition to find the effective speed of light for this ray in the ground frame. This pulse would be detected further down the tracks (from where X,Y, and the bursts coincide), in the direction of the train's motion, at a later time. This pulse would have both some Doppler shift and some aberration as seen from the tracks.
IMHO, "photons" are an artifact. At any rate "photons" or the "wavefront ray" cannot be seen or detected until they travel the distance to the detector. Neither "experience" anything as they are not sentient. All they can do is interact with matter. That means that they must be detected. Please apply some logic while you seek.Michael V wrote:I am not seeking argument, just seeking facts/opinions. Also, I am not really interested in the experience of observers relative to each other, I am seeking to understand the behavior and experience of the photons.
Michael