Randi Forums, what do you think about them?

[Maddogkull]

I have recently seen the randi forums make fun of the EU/plasma model time after time. What is there problem? I dont understand? They are not scientists why bother trying to prove this wrong? Ignorance?

[Jarvamundo]

You are reading the responses to all your topics yeah?
http://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum/phpB ... f=8&t=3434

It can be a common misconception that PC is non-mainstream science, this could not be anything further from the truth. The 'appeal to authority' 'non-mainstream fear agenda' that can often be pushed by any establishment to curious laymen i find very distasteful, and have often experienced it. Once you meet this fear campaign with names like Hannes Alfven, Anthony Peratt, Halton Arp, Tom Van Flandern, Kristian Birkeland, you realize the fear campaign is a pointless house of cards... credentials aplenty on both sides... it then becomes time to put the 'shiney badges' down and address the science.

I remind them that most of the science most people get to read is not written by scientists, but by journalists and textbook writers, whose job is to dumb down the science enough for the uneducated to understand. Of course this applies generally to pre-college level literature. I teach them to honor honest wording like "may", suppose", "believe", "many scientists think...", "observations suggest..." etc. and to mistrust literature that is written in declarative "factual" language. I teach the distinction between an observation and a conclusion, between evidence and opinions.

I empathize a lot with Web in this respect, I teach my students that being a scientist is about asking questions and answering them yourself. In the end, the only way to learn something is to ask your own question and then do your own experiment/research/etc. to answer it. It's not enough to find the answer to someone else's question. You haven't learned anything unless you've asked your own. Sometimes your own turns out to be identical to someone else's, but oftentimes someone else's question just doesn't mean the same thing to you.

some wise words from all the contributing posts in that thread.

The unique thing about this forum is that we post information and references, for members to then go and ask their own questions, and "do their own" research and reading. It just accelerates the process outlined by weboflife... it does not replace it with appeals to authority. Been there done that with forums like the ones you have mentioned....

[Maddogkull]

Just wondering. What did you do when you try to explain to the people on the randi forums about the EU and plasma universe? Did they all classify you as a loon?

[Siggy_G]

I hadn't seen Randi Forums before, and I'm fairly new to Physics Forums and BAUT Forum ("Bad Astronomy and Universe Today") as well. To be frank, reading through those old Electric Universe or Plasma Cosmology threads (2004-2007 and also some more recent ones) is just depressing and frustrating. Not only because of the contents, but also the lack of progression in the threads. They are cluttered with ad hominem attacks ("crackpot", "crank" etc.) and direct questions are seldomly answered. The proponents of the EU/PC theories don't always present the material well enough and are instantly shouted at. The ones that do point to the correct issues or confront mainstream issues, tend to be diverged into other issues by the ones answering.

Also, I don't think too many on this forum have been participating on those forums - it seems to be a cluttered discussion between 5-6 people; a couple of new members towards 3-4 forum gurus, always with Tim Thompson and/or the Nereid included.

By the way, is "The Iron Sun" related to EU/PC? They keep discussing it sooner or later within the thread at Randi Forums.

[nick c]

hi Siggy_G,
Tpod's about the "Iron Sun Debate"

http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2006/ ... solar1.htm
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2006/ ... nebula.htm
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2006/ ... solar3.htm
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2006/ ... solar4.htm

also a forum thread:
http://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum/phpB ... ?f=3&t=148

Nick

[Maddogkull]

That is what I realised, they never actually adress the issues. Then they just call you a crackpot. If you do present material, I am pretty sure you get banned

[Jarvamundo]

Just wondering. What did you do when you try to explain to the people on the randi forums about the EU and plasma universe? Did they all classify you as a loon?

Plenty of times...
http://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum/phpB ... f=6&t=3073

Tis now one of the MOST VIEWED THREAD on the biggest astro site in AU.
The usual pattern is REALLY LOUD DISMISSAL usually in the form of an Ad-Hominem attack without addressing the science, by the establishment. Checkout that thread, a Sky & Telescope Editor weighs in without addressing the science at all....

I've since canceled my subscription to that magazine.

What these guys don't realize is that WAY more people read posts, i often receive private messages of support through those forums. The key is to just present your case with references, agreed to disagree and move on. Intelligent folk make up their own mind and will do their own research. (As weboflife points out). The thread (including this one) will stay there, continue to be read, and searched, for history (including their illogical rants).

What my intention in that thread was, was to discuss the theory.... i really would've liked some genuine open input from some of the talented amateurs... which in part was received... then continued in private messages with members to the detriment of a SCIENCE forum.

NASA does not INVITE Don Scott to come and present to the Goddard Colloquium without the ideas having serious merit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOI-X215A8Y

Plasma is here to stay... make room or look dull.

'Does this "plasma" idea pass Occham's Razor -- not by any stretch of the imagination.'
Les D - Australian Sky & Telescope Contributing Editor

Voted with my feet. Every time Sky n Tel sends me a subscription reminder, I log on and donate it to TB.

[Sparky]

I have recently seen the randi forums make fun of the EU/plasma model time after time. What is there problem? I dont understand? They are not scientists why bother trying to prove this wrong? Ignorance?

Why do you care what others think?...Does Randi agree with the forum's general disagreement with EU?...Whether he agrees or not is not important!...Do your really expect the world's population to agree with you?

"What is their problem"?!..What is your problem?..What is anyone's problem?..We all pretty much share an assortment of problems, and we can only correct our own, not someone elses.

True, you "do not understand"....only at a very basic level do i understand, and that understanding is only a tiny piece of the puzzle we work with every day. Keeping an open mind and continuing with good questions will bring some understanding.

Well, they may be scientists or not, as you may be a scientist or not....Just because they do not agree with you does not make them a non-scientist, though i suspect that most people in forums are non-scientists. If one is science inclined, i give them an A for effort,even if they fail at the scientific method. Randi is a skeptic, and i suspect that attracts skeptics...Skeptics can be a pain in the ass , but they are also part of the equation to balance out the absurdities of superstitious belief, even if they do go overboard sometimes.

"Why bother to prove them wrong"?...Excellent question!...It has to do with propping up or maintaining the ego, establishing superiority of intellect over another, building personality,defining who you are, and/or establishing and developing priorities...Indeed, why prove someone wrong?...Have you considered that that act itself may be wrong?...I think our efforts would be better spent proving ourselves wrong...And those who can not bring themselves to do that, the ideologues, will be easily recognized by their assembly into groups, cults, and inbred, exclusive associations.


We move from error to error until we achieve perfection, then we are in deep error.