Thunderbolts Forum v3.0

2603

Thanks for your reply, Ev.

I hope you may like to comment on my latest post at https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=13&p=5269#p5269
which is about Objective, Non-creationist Arguments for Reducing the Ages for the Geologic Column.
And is the following plausible to you?
_MAINSTREAM SHORTSIGHTEDNESS.
Just as mythologists have overlooked basic facts in mythology, geologists have missed some basic facts in geology (such as lack of erosion between sedimentary strata and sorting of strata).

Thanks for your reply, Ev.

I hope you may like to comment on my latest post at https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=13&p=5269#p5269
which is about Objective, Non-creationist Arguments for Reducing the Ages for the Geologic Column.
And is the following plausible to you?
_MAINSTREAM SHORTSIGHTEDNESS.
Just as mythologists have overlooked basic facts in mythology, geologists have missed some basic facts in geology.

[quote=Lloyd post_id=5234 time=1623944049 user_id=184]
2300

Do you think Saturn left the configuration first, leaving Jupiter in its place?

Personally, I don't see any role for the planet Jupiter in the polar configuration. As you will likely remember, this idea is original with Dave Talbott in several summary articles in Aeon. Dave presented some fascinating suggestions but never followed through in presenting his evidence for Jupiter's role. In the absence of that evidence, I will refrain from commenting further. Suffice it to say that, if you have been following my various Youtube presentations on Zeus, you will know that I do not identify the Greek god with Jupiter (that identification is the product of late influence from Babylonian astronomy). I believe I have posted some of this material on my website (see the video page kindly uploaded by Ian Tresman). You can also look under Thundergods and Thunderbolts, for example, or Written in the Stars. I have several chapters on Zeus in my forthcoming book that will discuss his proper identification.

Thanks much for the interest Lloyd. My latest book is titled The Case of the Turquoise Sun and examines the earliest cosmogonic myths of ancient Mesopotamia, Egypt, India, Greece and Mesoamerica for clues to the role of planetary catastrophism in shaping the major institutions of human civilization (religion, the origin of writing, monumental architecture, drama, dance, etc.). As I hope to show, the ancients were obsessed with the planets and purposefully designed their cultures to model the appearance and/or behavior of the planets participating in the polar configuration. Although many volumes remain to be written, this particular volume represents a general overview of the findings of Talbott and myself to this point.

2300

Yes, that helps. Thanks for correcting me.
"the spiraling comet-like apparition presented by the planet Venus — disappeared from the ancient skies at some point between prehistoric times and the end of the Early Dynastic period" [of Mesopotamia, 2300 BC].

Has it also been determined by you or others when the planet-gods stopped appearing in the sky?

Do you think Saturn left the configuration first, leaving Jupiter in its place?

And did Jupiter, Venus and Mars then depart to their present orbits shortly after Saturn left?

Also, do you want to say what your new book will be about?

It will be noted that I was talking about the Early Dynastic Period in Mesopotamia, not Egypt. The Early Dynastic is traditionally dated from 3000 to 2300 BCE. The comet-like sign of Inanna-Venus appears already in the previous period, i.e., the Uruk III levels, traditionally dated to 3200 BCE or so. Unfortunately, these texts were found in a rather jumbled context so they are very difficult to date securely. It is my judgment that the Venus-comet period occurred at some point before this period, likely during the Neolithic period and in the prehistoric levels of Mesopotamia and Egypt. Thus the texts allegedly written by Sargon's daughter--attested, you will note, only in much later texts--are not eyewitness accounts (presuming she is even the author at all). Rather, I suspect she is drawing on traditional materials for her tales much like the Biblical authors were drawing on traditional materials in composing the tales pertaining to the dragon combat. In short, there is no way that the Venus-comet material can be dated to as late as 2200 BCE. Hope this helps.

2182

[color=#FF0000]SEEKING THE TIME OF THE SATURN SYSTEM BREAKUP[/color]

[color=#0000FF]TIME OF THE VENUS COMET[/color]
(I'm copying this from my CMC thread)

I found that Ev estimated the time of the Venus Comet. I posted Highlights from Ev Cochrane's paper, FOSSIL GODS, at https://futureschool.boards.net/thread/76/best-models-comparison . On page 123 is this statement. "The natural form referenced by the MUÍ3-sign — i.e., the spiraling comet-like apparition presented by the planet Venus — disappeared from the ancient skies at some point between prehistoric times and the end of the Early Dynastic period. As the planet Venus settled into a more stable orbit, its heaven-spanning tail disappeared together with its terrifying aspect. At that decisive juncture in history new symbols were devised to describe Sumer’s greatest goddess."

Wikipedia says the Early Dynastic Period of Egypt lasted from c. 3150 BC – c. 2686 BC. So the cometary appearance of Venus would apparently have ended (no later than) about 2700 BC. However, I don't know how accurate conventional dating is. I'll try to ask Ev his opinion on that.

This https://www.worldhistory.org/Enheduanna/ says, "The Akkadian poet Enheduanna (l. 2285-2250 BCE) is the world's first author known by name and was the daughter of Sargon of Akkad (Sargon the Great, r. 2334-2279 BCE)." She's the one who apparently wrote about Venus depositing venom upon the land, which was likely the time when Venus appeared to be comet-like. If she was an eye-witness, then the time of the end of the Venus Comet would have been about 2260 BC.

So there's a 440 year difference between the two dates. Hopefully, Ev can comment on that if I can get back in touch.

1644

[color=#0000FF]SHAMASH = SATURN BEFORE 7TH CENTURY[/color]
In this post https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=13&start=480#p4978 in which I responded to JP's so-called unanswered questions, I quoted a Cardona (Fkare Star) quote of Ev, stating: "Saturn's identification with Shamash is attested in omen texts from the 13th century BC", ref.: "In Defence of the Saturn Theory," Chronology & Catastrophism Review (2002: I), p. 29

Here's the link to the book Ev mentioned, I think, i.e. Mesopotamian Astrology
https://books.google.com/books/about/Mesopotamian_Astrology.html?id=8QiwAqGlmAQC

On April 24th JP Michael stated that "there is no evidence prior to the 7th century BCE in any [i]extant[/i] tradition, oral or literary, that Saturn was Earth's former sun." A day later he doubled down on this claim, adding that Rens van der Sluijs had "checked the sources of used by Talbott, Cardona, and Cochrane and discovered that [i]none[/i] of them can be reliably dated earlier than the 7th century BCE." The bone of contention here is Saturn's explicit identification with Shamash in Babylonian astronomical texts, which formed a cornerstone in Talbott's argument in The Saturn Myth (1980). Why exactly Saturn was identified with Shamash remains a subject of much controversy among scholars of Babylonian astronomy. Here's what Ulla Koch had to say in her book Mesopotamian Astrology (1995):

"The association of Saturn and the sun is certainly older [than the 7th century] and far more entrenched in tradition than warranted by such arcane speculations [i.e., those Babylonian astrologers who associated Saturn with justice]." (123)

Elsewhere in the book the same scholar pointed to astronomical texts dating to the 13th century BCE (Emar IV/4) and observed that the several references to Shamash therein "must refer to Saturn."

Note: It is possible to read this book online simply by going to Advanced Google Book Search and typing in the title of the book.

1492

I tried to contact Ev, to see when he expects to be back here, but he hasn't replied yet.

[quote=Lloyd post_id=5134 time=1621732220 user_id=184]Did you say somewhere that Ramose was buried in Egypt? Or did he just have a tomb there that he was not buried in?[/quote]
He had a tomb in Thebes (TT55) and another at Amarna (AST11). Both were found empty, and his mummy was never located elsewhere. Of course, most tombs were found empty, and archaeologists are never surprised when they can't find somebody -- rather, they're surprised when they do. :) So just because he wasn't found in Egypt doesn't mean that he had to have left.

972

[color=#FF0000]MOSES = RAMOSE?[/color]

Charles, I think the following is where you explained the id. of Moses as Ramose. Isn't it?

Akhenaten, Moses, & Atenism
http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=5678

Did you say somewhere that Ramose was buried in Egypt? Or did he just have a tomb there that he was not buried in?

[quote=evcochrane post_id=5132 time=1621727695 user_id=7711]Lost on all of these folks is the unfortunate fact that all of these characters were mythical figures and never walked on Earth at all.[/quote]
I won't fault you for being skeptical. ;) Certainly we can't take the Torah at face value, since it contradicts itself, so [i]something[/i] has to be reinterpreted, and of course one possibility is that it was all made up. But there is a difference between skepticism and dismissal -- the skeptic is still open to new information, while the dismissive one has already made up his mind, and on the basis of what? ;) My attitude is not to have my mind already made up when studying something, and to simply use the tools to see what conclusions can be drawn, and to what degree of confidence. ;)

[quote=evcochrane post_id=5132 time=1621727695 user_id=7711]And of course Moses never appears in the Egyptian sources either.[/quote]
In Egyptian "Moses" would have been "Mose", which was a very common component in Egyptian names (e.g., Ahmose, Thutmose). I think that his original name was Ramose, and that the "Ra-" was dropped since it was the name of a pagan sun god in Judaism (and Atenism for that matter).

Cheers!

[quote=CharlesChandler post_id=5130 time=1621700014 user_id=446]
[why do you find "Moses and Monotheism" to be a non-starter?

[/quote]

It's a long story, I'm afraid. 100 years ago all of the top scholars wasted a ton of time and energy attempting to sort out the chronology of Heracles or Gilgamesh or Samson, making of them a king of this or that tribe or locale. Almost unbelievably, Sumerologists continue to churn out books claiming Gilgamesh was an early king of Uruk who lived in 3000 BCE (or some equally fictitious date). Lost on all of these folks is the unfortunate fact that all of these characters were mythical figures and never walked on Earth at all. I suspect that Moses belongs together with Samson and Noah and various other mythical figures in the Old Testament. Virtually every biography ever written on Moses begins with a disclaimer stating: "Virtually nothing is known of Moses from archaeology or historical sources." And of course Moses never appears in the Egyptian sources either.

Charles, perhaps you could just email me directly at ev.cochrane@gmail.com

Thanks much in advance.