Dating of events...

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Re: Dating of events...

Unread post by moses » Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:09 pm

Duat is the Egyptian underworld, the equivalent of Hades, neither of these is a physical location.
Grey Cloud

Jno Cook reckons that there was a ring of dusty material around
the Earth, around the Van Allen belts, I guess. This dusty material
was illuminated by the Sun everywhere except in the circular
shadow of the Sun. So that at night one would see a circular
shape that was darker than the surrounding, and which also allowed
viewing of the stars through this circular 'hole'. And especially to
view Jupiter and Saturn.
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Re: Dating of events...

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:35 am

Hi Moses,
Jno Cook isn't an ancient source himself and his sources are a bit too 'few and far-between' for me.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

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Re: Dating of events...

Unread post by Krackonis » Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:04 am

Grey Cloud wrote:
Krackonis wrote:
Another throw-away comment by Plutarch was that the Greeks call the ocean 'the tears of Kronos'. The last water sign before Pisces was Cancer, c.8700 BCE.

No need to set your clocks by any of this, it's just me thinking aloud.
Well yes... But Oceanos, the Greek word did not refer to the seas. It referred to the rings around the planet that were seen in the Southern sky. (Of course, this is why all major (older) constellations are northern)

The Egyptians called it Duat. So, the tears of Chronos (The remains of the dust when Jupiter and Saturn(Kronos) interacted and left for beyond the ocean, to the underworld.) would be the rings. They left us before or during our orbital change from 360 days to 365 days. When the moon arrived in our skies.
Hi Krackonis,
My comment, which you quote, does not mention Oceanus.
As to where you get the idea that the Greek word (Okeanos/Oceanus) refers to the rings of Saturn, I'm guessing that it is the Saturn theory? Please correct me if I'm wrong (and apologies to DT if I am).

Duat is the Egyptian underworld, the equivalent of Hades, neither of these is a physical location. From your post it is unclear whether you are saying that Duat is the Egyptian equivalent of Oceanus, the rings of Saturn or the ocean. None of these are correct.

If you, or anyone else, can point me to an ancient source which supports any of the assertions made in your post I would be very grateful, not to say gobsmacked.
Sorry, I apologize for not being clear ;P The Greeks referred to the rings of planet Earth as the Ocean (Oceanos). We adopted it to refer to the "Waters Surrounding the World". Which is what it was, but it was in the sky. It was the "Bowl the Earth Sat in". There were seven of these rings as seen from the Mediterranean. I believe this is why we say "Sailing the Seven Seas".

And yes the Duat and Oceanos are the same. Referring the rings which are no longer in our skies, either due to Mars/Venus or the Moon.

Sorry if I cannot point a source, I am inferring from many sources and sites, but I'm familiar with my Mythology. If I could locate my reference, I believe have it in a text.
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Re: Dating of events...

Unread post by Krackonis » Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:08 am

Grey Cloud wrote:Hi Moses,
Jno Cook isn't an ancient source himself and his sources are a bit too 'few and far-between' for me.

Actually I even recall seeing a video from this site, or a related site showing a plasma column as seen through the rings of the planet, creating an image of a giant winged bird. Perhaps it was a Nazca line drawing. If I stumble across it I will post it for you.
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Re: Dating, Chronology, Pass the salt, please...

Unread post by Krackonis » Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:44 am

Krackonis wrote:
davesmith_au wrote:One thing which should be remembered when talking dating and chronology, especially the recent posts full of 'interesting' dates and events, they must be taken with a huge dose of salt... That is, these are NOT dates/events proposed by EU theory or EU's Saturn hypothesis.

Whilst Jno Cook's site does credit Dwardu among others as a source for information, it is in no way reflective of EU Saturn Myth. Jno takes loads of information about which there is little or no accurate dating, and then seems to come up with the exact year of some events :shock: .

The EU approach is one of forensic investigation and as such you will likely NOT see such specific dating within EU material. Whilst everyone out there has the right to speculate I would not like to see the above dating/events misconstrued as the EU position on such matters.

Now, could someone pass the sauce, please? :?

Cheers, Dave Smith.

I understand what you are saying Dave, truly, and I bring them up as contentions to your (and others) theories. I consider myself an EU theorist. I think intently on this often and I apply to myself a great amount of criticism. I see some issues with his site and I do not like to apply stringent dates, but he is working backwards and much of his information is based on sound reasoning. (We should not take the dates to heart either, I can say 3114, 3110, 3100, About 3000 bc as all the same time...)

Two incidents which I hinge on are Venus Figurines and The Caduceus , both symbols show the 'formation' Saturn, Uranus, Mars, outside of contact with our planet. Seen from the side. One is glow form and the other seems to be Arc mode.

With that alone, we must agree that further and more accurate research needs to be done. I would recommend, perhaps, Jno, yourself, and many others from this board get together for a evidence analysis of all the writings and accept what we see in light of the new presented evidence. I do not mean reach consensus, since we have no authority to present something other than our views, but we should see that the works can be amalgamated and perhaps we all learn to see these issues from a different angle. There can be nothing wrong with that.

Venus Figures and the Caduceus are here for reference. ;P
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Re: Dating of events...

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:16 am

Krackonis wrote:
The Greeks referred to the rings of planet Earth as the Ocean (Oceanos).
A: Which Greeks and where?
B: What rings of planet Earth?
We adopted it to refer to the "Waters Surrounding the World". Which is what it was, but it was in the sky.
C: Who is this 'we'? If you mean ancient humans, then can you point to a source or sources which demonstrate that 'we' adopted it and that it was in the sky?
It was the "Bowl the Earth Sat in".
D: What bowl? Is this your own metaphor or are you implying that the ancients thought of the
Earth as sitting in a bowl?
There were seven of these rings as seen from the Mediterranean.
E: Can you furnish reference to this as stated by any ancient writer? Or even any Greek (or
other) myth which you interpret as saying this?
And yes the Duat and Oceanos are the same. Referring the rings which are no longer in our skies, either due to Mars/Venus or the Moon.
F: No, Duat and Oceanus are not the same and you and other Saturnistas repeating the statement will not make them the same. They are not even similar concepts in ancient writings.
Actually I even recall seeing a video from this site, or a related site showing a plasma column as seen through the rings of the planet, creating an image of a giant winged bird.
G: And what exactly does that prove? I have seen a video of a giant gorilla climbing up the Empire State building.
Two incidents which I hinge on are Venus Figurines and The Caduceus, both symbols show the 'formation' Saturn, Uranus, Mars, outside of contact with our planet.
H: Just how do these Venus figurines such as the Venus of Willendorf 'show the 'formation'
Saturn, Uranus, Mars, outside of contact with our planet'. Your own source (wiki) states that
'Venus figurines' is an umberalla term. Scholars do not appear to associate them with the
planet Venus.
I: What evidence do you have that the ancients associated the caduceus with Venus or any other planet. In Greek myth the caduceus is primarilry identified with Hermes/Mercury.
I would recommend, perhaps, Jno, yourself, and many others from this board get together for a evidence analysis of all the writings and accept what we see in light of the new presented evidence.
J: I would love to see the Saturn theory and its variants discussed on this forum, if only
because the more I look into the evidence, the less I see. I have asked several times in various threads for someone to come up with one ancient source which supports this theory in any way, shape or form. Thus far 'no answer came the reply'. Given that the Saturn theory has been around since at least the seventies (if one doens't include Velikovsky's original) then I think it's a bit lame.
Nor have I seen any evidence that my misgivings, which I laid out in my opening 'Cautionary Note' post (and subsequently), were misplaced. In fact, I came across something last night dating back to the nineties which raises similar points about the Saturn theory:

An Antidote to Dave Talbott's "Saturn Thesis"
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/cle/cle-t ... tidote.txt

DAVID N. TALBOTT: Hoist, Clueless & 'Nihilated
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/cle/cle-talbott.txt

And before any apologists for the Saturn theory decide to take up cudgels in its defence, I will
say that I do not believe all that is said in either of these two pieces, nor do I accept their
arguments in blind faith.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

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Re: Dating of events...

Unread post by davesmith_au » Sat Jul 12, 2008 6:59 pm

Grey Cloud wrote:An Antidote to Dave Talbott's "Saturn Thesis"
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/cle/cle-t ... tidote.txt

DAVID N. TALBOTT: Hoist, Clueless & 'Nihilated
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/cle/cle-talbott.txt

And before any apologists for the Saturn theory decide to take up cudgels in its defence, I will
say that I do not believe all that is said in either of these two pieces, nor do I accept their
arguments in blind faith.
I have found little substance (if any at all) in anything written by Ellenberger. He employes essentially the same tactics as Josh Schroeder (aka Science Apologist) using little more than ad hominem attacks mixed with a little mainstream reference. I would also point out that much more has been studied since Talbott wrote The Saturn Myth and Ellenberger's *cough* rebuttals *cough* are neither accurate nor current.

As to your other concerns, there is no quick or easy way to explain the vast amount of study which has gone into the current Saturnian hypothesis, as put forward by Cardona in God Star and Flare Star. And Dave Talbott has little time on his hands to address your concerns at this point in time, as discussed in the "Directions" thread. As has already been asked, please allow some time for a response from Dave on these matters.

I should also point out that Neil (Krackonis) is putting forward his own personal views of Saturn Myth, and whilst some of what he states has been found in the EU literature some of it is also from other sources which the EU crowd don't necessarily endorse. This is not a personal put-down of Neil in any way, simply making clear that he speaks his own mind and is not representing strictly EU views.

Cheers, Dave Smith.
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Re: Dating of events...

Unread post by Krackonis » Sun Jul 13, 2008 2:02 pm

davesmith_au wrote:
Grey Cloud wrote:An Antidote to Dave Talbott's "Saturn Thesis"
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/cle/cle-t ... tidote.txt

DAVID N. TALBOTT: Hoist, Clueless & 'Nihilated
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/cle/cle-talbott.txt

And before any apologists for the Saturn theory decide to take up cudgels in its defence, I will
say that I do not believe all that is said in either of these two pieces, nor do I accept their
arguments in blind faith.
I have found little substance (if any at all) in anything written by Ellenberger. He employes essentially the same tactics as Josh Schroeder (aka Science Apologist) using little more than ad hominem attacks mixed with a little mainstream reference. I would also point out that much more has been studied since Talbott wrote The Saturn Myth and Ellenberger's *cough* rebuttals *cough* are neither accurate nor current.

As to your other concerns, there is no quick or easy way to explain the vast amount of study which has gone into the current Saturnian hypothesis, as put forward by Cardona in God Star and Flare Star. And Dave Talbott has little time on his hands to address your concerns at this point in time, as discussed in the "Directions" thread. As has already been asked, please allow some time for a response from Dave on these matters.

I should also point out that Neil (Krackonis) is putting forward his own personal views of Saturn Myth, and whilst some of what he states has been found in the EU literature some of it is also from other sources which the EU crowd don't necessarily endorse. This is not a personal put-down of Neil in any way, simply making clear that he speaks his own mind and is not representing strictly EU views.

Cheers, Dave Smith.
Absolutely Dave ;P I have to think with my own mind of course. I certainly would love the opportunity to persuade you to my thoughts on these issues, but certainly, the direction we are heading are not far different from each other. We are simply debating event order and chronology, and perhaps some minor interpretive evidence.

Either way I'm glad to have the opportunity, and perhaps, if you are ever in the area we can discuss sometime. :D
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Re: Dating of events...

Unread post by Krackonis » Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:41 pm

Grey Cloud wrote:Krackonis wrote:
The Greeks referred to the rings of planet Earth as the Ocean (Oceanos).
A: Which Greeks and where?
B: What rings of planet Earth?
These are common Mythological Themes, and I did not expect to have to explain it. I will use "The Google" and give you some definitions:

Definition of Oceanos
Oceanus or Okeanos, in the Greek mythology the great world-stream which surrounds the whole earth, and is the parent source of all seas and streams, presided over by a Titan, the husband of Tethys, and the father of all river-gods and water-nymphs. He is the all-father of the world, as his wife is the all-mother, and the pair occupy a palace apart on the extreme verge of the world.
- Wikipedia

The Rings of planet earth were the rings of the planet, much like the rings of Saturn. Any planet with a magnetic field has rings. Ours, however, have been dispersed via the events I previously mentioned.

Grey Cloud wrote:
We adopted it to refer to the "Waters Surrounding the World". Which is what it was, but it was in the sky.
C: Who is this 'we'? If you mean ancient humans, then can you point to a source or sources which demonstrate that 'we' adopted it and that it was in the sky?
Modern Greeks (500bc til present) read the words and interpreted them differently than today, since they do not see a giant stream in the heavens they simply moved the term to the waters of the world. Much like the Sacred Mountain became any nearby bifuricated mountain.

When Odysseus and Nestor walk together along the shore of the sounding sea (Iliad ix.182) their prayers are addressed "to the great Sea-god who girdles the world." It is to Oceanus, not to Poseidon, that their thoughts are directed.

Some scholars believe that Oceanus originally represented all bodies of salt water, including the Mediterranean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean, the two largest bodies known to the ancient Greeks. However, as geography became more accurate, Oceanus came to represent the stranger, more unknown waters of the Atlantic Ocean (also called the "Ocean Sea"), while the newcomer of a later generation, Poseidon, ruled over the Mediterranean.
Grey Cloud wrote:
It was the "Bowl the Earth Sat in".
D: What bowl? Is this your own metaphor or are you implying that the ancients thought of the
Earth as sitting in a bowl?
TIRAWA

In Pawnee mythology, Tirawa created the world in the shape of a bowl floating in space. He gave the stars the task of supporting the world and protecting it. He ordered the Moon and Sun to mate and produce a son and he ordered the Evening and Morning stars to mate and produce a daughter, these became the parents of the human race.

In Mordvin culture the earth is described as flat, scoop or bowl shaped with the brims curled inside and is surrounded by the 'World Sea'.
Grey Cloud wrote:
There were seven of these rings as seen from the Mediterranean.
E: Can you furnish reference to this as stated by any ancient writer? Or even any Greek (or
other) myth which you interpret as saying this?
IN THE Universe of the Lamas (Plate XXV) we come upon the very greatest of the Mountains of the World, Mount Meru, the universal hub, the support of all the worlds. Meru is also the "Garden of the Tree of Life," for the Jambu or Rose Apple World Tree springs from it. This Tibetan Universe is not only a beautiful but a complex universe as well, and it is going to be difficult to describe its many divisions simply and directly. 1

But first of all, say the Lamas of Tibet, this world of ours is merely one of a series, which all together form a universe or Chiliocosm of which again there are many. Each universe is set like a jewel in illimitable space, upon a warp or woof of "blue air" or wind. Crossed thunder-bolts are the symbols of this "blue air," which is hard and indestructible, like a diamond. Upon this "warp" or "woof" is set "the body of the waters," and upon this is a foundation of pure gold, on which is set the Earth. From the Earth's axis soars Mount Meru, crown of the world, which rises to a height of 84,000 miles before it is surrounded by the heavens. It is likened to "the handle of a millstone," and half way up its southern side is the Jambu, or Rose Apple Tree, the object of combat between the gods and the Titans. From its root four inexhaustible rivers

p. 128

take their source. It bears an immortal fruit, like gold, which falls into the rivers, and from its scattered pips comes the golden seed which is carried down to the sea, and is, sometimes, washed up again on its shores.

In the ocean about Mount Meru lie the four continents, each with two attending "satellites," and all with bases of solid gold in the form of a tortoise. But the continents are separated from the sacred Meru by seven "stages" or golden mountains, between which flow seven oceans of seven substances: fragrant milk which is churned by the gods, curds, butter, blood or sugar-cane juice, poisons or wine, fresh water, and salt water. Encircling all these divisions is a double iron wall which shuts off the light of the Sun and the Moon of each universe from all the space which intervenes between it and the succeeding universe. No ray of light illumines the void between the "thousand-thousand" universes. This is the "outer darkness".
Grey Cloud wrote:
And yes the Duat and Oceanos are the same. Referring the rings which are no longer in our skies, either due to Mars/Venus or the Moon.
F: No, Duat and Oceanus are not the same and you and other Saturnistas repeating the statement will not make them the same. They are not even similar concepts in ancient writings.
That's quite a blunt statement. I'm not sure what a 'Saturnista" is, but please don't call me names if that was the intent. The Duat and the Oceanoes are clearly the same by the above statements, and if you wish more, I'm not going to help you, google it on your own. If they are not the same, please explain their differences.

The theme of an ocean following the circular perimeter of the earth is widespread, and in quite a few cases, the enclosing body of water is itself envisioned as a “ring” or river. The Egyptians had such a concept, portraying the god Osiris in his “watery” aspect as the personification of the circular ocean: “… you are hale and great in your name of ‘Sea’; behold, you are great and round in <your name of> ‘Ocean’; behold, you are circular and round as the circle which surrounds the Ḥзw-nbwt …”, says a spell in the Pyramid Texts.

The Greek historian Herodotus bemoaned his compatriots for “foolishly” perpetuating the myth of the circular ocean, in the face of current knowledge: “And I laugh to see how many have ere now drawn maps of the world, not one of them showing the matter reasonably; for they draw the world as round as if fashioned by compasses, encircled by the river of Ocean, and Asia and Europe of a like bigness.” But the concept remained popular for millennia afterwards, in countries far outside the sphere of Greek influence. As an example, the people of Benin contended until recently that “the water surrounds the earth around its entire convex surface”. And the Pueblo people of New Mexico “believe the earth to be circular and surrounded on all sides by the ocean.”

Grey Cloud wrote:
Actually I even recall seeing a video from this site, or a related site showing a plasma column as seen through the rings of the planet, creating an image of a giant winged bird.
G: And what exactly does that prove? I have seen a video of a giant gorilla climbing up the Empire State building.
... Are you just trying to be rude? We are dealing with a new science here, and I am not trying to be mean, I am trying to help.
Grey Cloud wrote:
Two incidents which I hinge on are Venus Figurines and The Caduceus, both symbols show the 'formation' Saturn, Uranus, Mars, outside of contact with our planet.
H: Just how do these Venus figurines such as the Venus of Willendorf 'show the 'formation'
Saturn, Uranus, Mars, outside of contact with our planet'. Your own source (wiki) states that
'Venus figurines' is an umberalla term. Scholars do not appear to associate them with the
planet Venus.
I: What evidence do you have that the ancients associated the caduceus with Venus or any other planet. In Greek myth the caduceus is primarilry identified with Hermes/Mercury.
They are called Venus Figurines, I didn't say they represented Venus. The formation is easy to see. Saturn's Torus represents the Bust, the legs lead down to Mars, and Neptune and Uranus make the nodding head and neck. In later times the form changed a bit including a longer neck and sometimes did not look "normal" but it's Plasma, it undulates.

Why the Caduceus is now associated with Mercury I can only speculate. I could also speculate that it may represent Mercury running into another planet and making a south polar connection to it. However, I am just guessing.
Grey Cloud wrote:
I would recommend, perhaps, Jno, yourself, and many others from this board get together for a evidence analysis of all the writings and accept what we see in light of the new presented evidence.
J: I would love to see the Saturn theory and its variants discussed on this forum, if only
because the more I look into the evidence, the less I see. I have asked several times in various threads for someone to come up with one ancient source which supports this theory in any way, shape or form. Thus far 'no answer came the reply'. Given that the Saturn theory has been around since at least the seventies (if one doens't include Velikovsky's original) then I think it's a bit lame.
Nor have I seen any evidence that my misgivings, which I laid out in my opening 'Cautionary Note' post (and subsequently), were misplaced. In fact, I came across something last night dating back to the nineties which raises similar points about the Saturn theory:

An Antidote to Dave Talbott's "Saturn Thesis"
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/cle/cle-t ... tidote.txt

DAVID N. TALBOTT: Hoist, Clueless & 'Nihilated
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/cle/cle-talbott.txt

And before any apologists for the Saturn theory decide to take up cudgels in its defence, I will
say that I do not believe all that is said in either of these two pieces, nor do I accept their
arguments in blind faith.
[/quote]

It seems perhaps then you should go to a place where you would be constructive. It's obvious to many here that the planets were once Gods. Homer stated it 2500 years ago. We should have listened. This is the common ground in which we are building our reconstructions. Combined, of course, with real experimental science.

If your fundamental argument is that Jung was right and Myth's are not literal but metaphors, then really, there is nothing more to say. My evidence will always be circumstantial to you, and your mind will always be 'closed' to me.

I recommend a crash course before casting random remarks about something which you seem grossly uneducated.
Neil Thompson

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Re: Dating of events...

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:18 am

Hi Krackonis,
First I would like to clear up any confusion caused by my 'saturnista' remark. This was not meant as an insult to you or any other votary of the Saturn theory (ST), it was merely me being facetious.

Oceanus
It was you who introduced Oceanus into this thread by quoting me from a post in another thread. As far as I am aware, in neither thread have I associated Oceanus with 'the seas' or anything other than the world-ocean. And, while we are on the subject of your original post
(Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:50 am) Kronos does not mean time ;P or no ;P.

You stated that "The Greeks referred to the rings of planet Earth as the Ocean (Oceanos)" and I asked A: Which Greeks and where? B: What rings of planet Earth?
Your reply to these questions consisted of what appears to be a paraphrase of of a wiki article and a comment about magnetic fields.
Neither the paraphrase nor the comment about magnetic fields has any relevance to the questions I asked. Furthermore, in your paraphrasing of the wiki article you state that "He [Oceanus] is the all-father of the world, as his wife [Tethys] is the all-mother". If this so then
where do Ouranus and Gaia, the parents of Oceanus and Tethys, fit in?
Can you furnish a reference to a Greek text which cites Oceanus as the All-Father?

You wrote "We adopted it [Oceanus] to refer to the "Waters Surrounding the World". Which is what it was, but it was in the sky". So I asked "C: Who is this 'we'? If you mean ancient humans, then can you point to a source or sources which demonstrate that 'we' adopted it and that it was in the sky"?
The first sentence of your reply does not appear to make any sense: "Modern Greeks (500bc til present) read the words and interpreted them differently than today, since they do not see a giant stream in the heavens they simply moved the term to the waters of the world". How
can modern Greeks (up to the present)interpret differently than today?
You then quote from the wiki article on Oceanus, including a reference to Iliad ix 182, which the wiki piece gives as "to the great Sea-god who girdles the world", and continues "It is to Oceanus, not to Poseidon, that their thoughts are directed".
Now, my copy of the Iliad (Wordsworth Classics, trans George Chapman) gives book nine, line 182 (actually lines 181 and 182) as "They went along the shore, and pray'd the god that earth doth bind in brackish chains, they might not fail, but bow his mighty mind". This edition
has an endnote identifying the god as Poseidon. Also as a double-check, at http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/homer/ili/ili08.htm
(trans Samuel Butler) it gives "They went their way by the shore of the sounding sea, and prayed earnestly to earth-encircling Neptune that the high spirit of the son of Aeacus might incline favourably towards them".
So much for the perils of using wikipedia as a source. You then quote a paragraph from the wiki article which is directly at odds with your (correct) assertion that Oceanus is in the sky:
"Some scholars believe that Oceanus originally represented all bodies of salt water, including the Mediterranean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean, the two largest bodies known to the ancient Greeks. However, as geography became more accurate, Oceanus came to represent the
stranger, more unknown waters of the Atlantic Ocean (also called the "Ocean Sea"), while the newcomer of a later generation, Poseidon, ruled over the Mediterranean".

Tirawa.
The unattributed paragraph pertaining to Tirawa which you you posted appears to come from here:
http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/browse/DB.HTM
From this quote I would associate Tirawa with Ouranus rather than Oceanus. Mircea Eliade's 'From Primitives To Zen. A thematic sourcebook to the history of religions', lends credence to this interpretation as on p13, a Pawnee named the kuruhus states "The white
man speaks of a heavenly Father; we say Tirawa atius, the Father above, but we do not think of Tirawa as a person. We think of Tirawa as in everything, as the Power which has arranged and thrown down from above everything that man needs. What the Power above, Tirawa atius, is like, no one knows; no one has been there".

You wrote: "In Mordvin culture the earth is described as flat, scoop or bowl shaped with the brims curled inside and is surrounded by the 'World Sea'".
There does not seem to be a Mordvin culture per se, instead, various branches of the Mordvin group of peoles appear to have each there own creation myths etc. See
http://www.folklore.ee/Folklore/vol17/mordmyth.pdf , or for the HTML version:
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:j8aB ... cd=8&gl=uk

Having said all that about Tirawa and the Mordvin, and despite the fact that you originally used the bowl metaphor in the context of the Greeks and Oceanus, I will accept it as answering my question a to its origin.

Next we have your statement "There were seven of these rings as seen from the Mediterranean" and my question "E: Can you furnish reference to this as stated by any ancient writer? Or even any Greek (or other) myth which you interpret as saying this?

Your response to this involves another unattributed source, this time from 'The Book of Earths by Edna Kenton [1928], which can be found here:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/boe/boe17.htm
Interesting though the passage is, it does not come anywhere near answering my question, e.g. it has nothing to do with planetary rings, or the view from the Mediteranean. As an aside, anything concerning the structure of the Universe written from the perspective of one of the Eastern religions, as a rule of thumb, is not about the world as seen by looking up at the sky. Clue: think meditation.

In response to my point F you wrote: "The Duat and the Oceanoes are clearly the same by the above statements, and if you wish more, I'm not going to help you, google it on your own. If they are not the same, please explain their differences".
If they are 'clearly the same' then one wonders as to why, for several thousand years, no one made the association. Here are a view of Duat and of Oceanus which are more along the lines of my understanding of the terms.
Duat:
The Egyptians thought of manifestation as taking place in three main gradations of crystallization that they called "worlds." There was the celestial world or heaven, the domain or condition of being of the Neters, the inherent qualities in nature. The second sphere was the Duat or Dwat, intermediate between the celestial realm and our more tangible earth. It has been described as the "moment between night and day." It is the condition when causal forces are in transition from the abstract phase to the material aspects of nature. Because of this it is really a duality, representing the state of an entity's 'becoming' into and 'emerging' from different sets of qualities or levels of experience. The third world is the concreted, material globe. "It is the world of Ptah -- the innate fire of terrestrial matter -- who created it, who is its secret motive force and the agent of its future development" (Schwaller de Lubicz, p. 341).
From The Radiant Thread of Egyptian Myth By I. M. Oderberg, which is at
http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/wor ... y-imo5.htm
And I cannot recommend too highly, Schwaller's works.
Oceanus:
"Oceanus and Tethys.
Parents of all rivers and three-thousand Oceanids which in the subsequent became wives of many gods, and in particular are parents of Metis who was oceanid and was a wife of Zeus, as which personified wisdom of Zeus.
The Oceanus is a kind and peaceful god who did not participate in struggle of titans against Zeus and Olympic gods, and also tried to reconcile Zeus with Prometheus. But he frequently quarrels with wife Tethys as she corresponds with zodiac constellation Scorpio where
managing planet is Mars, and the Oceanus corresponds with zodiac constellation Libra where managing planet is Venus. That is from the point of view of a modern astrology "Mars in Scorpio" and "Venus in Libra" are a combination in which the imperious woman rules the
peaceful man and as a result there are conflicts.
The Oceanus was not thrown in Tartarus and has kept the authority among Olympic gods.
His place of stay and the house are in the extreme west that confirms a parity with zodiac constellation Libra which within the framework of the astrological circle is in the west".
From 'Philosophical bases of the astrology and numerology. Global world categories and ancient Greek myths'. Which can be found at
http://www.numeralgame.64g.ru/num1en.htm
I have plucked these two from the net via a quick google. They are not exactly my take on things but are close enough for our purposes. They will also, I hope, introduce you and others to the concept that the interpretation of myth is not quite as cut-and-dried as many appear to
think. It should also be kept in mind that two or more different interpretations of a particular myth are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
"Are you just trying to be rude? We are dealing with a new science here, and I am not trying to be mean, I am trying to help".
I was not trying to be rude (doubt tends to evaporate when I am), rather I was wondering what the video has to do with evidence of things mythological.

With regard to Venus figurines and the caduceus, you are correct in saying that you did not say they represented Venus. But how you can say "The formation is easy to see" is beyond me as nobody has ever seen the planetary alignment thing you outline.
For an alternative view of the caduceus see:
http://www.esotericstudies.eu/caduceus.htm
You wrote:
"It seems perhaps then you should go to a place where you would be constructive. It's obvious to many here that the planets were once Gods. Homer stated it 2500 years ago. We should have listened. This is the common ground in which we are building our reconstructions. Combined, of course, with real experimental science".
Is my criticism not constructive? Is this the comfort zone where everyone sings from the same hymn sheet? In the science topics there is widespread disagreement on some of the things discussed - is the myth section different? While it may well be that to many here the planets were gods, this does not mean that the planets were gods. The view that the planets were gods and nothing more is to my mind far too simplistic. And one thing the ancient myth writers were not is simplistic. Homer did not say that the planets were gods full stop (or even period). You may want consider the fact that some gods were associated with constellations for instance. What planet was Oceanus? What is 'the common ground in which we are building our reconstructions'?
You wrote:
"If your fundamental argument is that Jung was right and Myth's are not literal but metaphors, then really, there is nothing more to say. My evidence will always be circumstantial to you, and your mind will always be 'closed' to me".
I have absolutely no idea how or why you are bringing Jung into this. Having read Jung (Freud, Skinner and several others), I can state categorically that I have no time for anything he (or they) says. For the record, it is not just Jung who says that myths are metaphor (or allegory etc). This has been recognised for at least two thousand years. Plato uses allegorical mythological stories. The Plutarch text 'Isis and Osiris' gives five differing interpretations of the Isis and Osiris myth. Renaissance alchemists frequently reference Homer's Iliad to illustrate certain processes in their work. Late nineteenth and early-twentieth century Theosophists explore and interpret the allegorical meaning of various myths. Our ancestors were far more sophisticated and intelligent than the ST credits them.
You wrote:
"I recommend a crash course before casting random remarks about something which you seem grossly uneducated".
Please make clear what area it is in which I am "grossly uneducated", and could you provide a list of suitable reading for my 'crash course'? Thanks in anticipation.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

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