Questions and Answers...

Plasma formations in the ancient sky. The role of planets as charged bodies in these formations. Ground-rules for drawing reliable conclusions. A new approach to the mythic archetypes: is a unified theory of world mythology possible?
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Questions and Answers...

Unread post by Forum Moderator » Fri May 16, 2008 1:41 pm

This thread is a place where users can ask questions of those familiar with the Saturn theory and the implications of the mythic reconstruction, hopefully without sidetracking conversations from the main "Origins of Myth..." thread, which is currently being used to facilitate communication of the backbone of the theory as a whole.

If you have a question, you may wish to link back to the post from which your question is derived. At the top of each post, next to the name of the author, is a "page" symbol that links to that specific post. You can use the URL from that to refer back to the post you have a question or insight about.

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(FMV 5-16-08: Added thread per request by DT)

Divinity
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Re: Questions and Answers...

Unread post by Divinity » Fri May 16, 2008 1:49 pm

Good Afternoon,
David Talbott wrote:[Continuing our earlier discussion]

Saturn, the ancient sun god
(snip)

As we noted earlier, Sumerian myths say that the rites and standards of "kingship" descended from the central luminary An, founder of the Golden Age. In Babylonian myth the Sumerian An appears as Anu, first in the line of gods and kings. And as cuneiform experts began to decipher archaic tablets in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, the specialists on Babylonian astronomy began to notice curious associations of the god Anu with the planet Saturn. The connection was stated most bluntly by the renowned expert on Babylonian astronomy, Peter Jensen, in Die Kosmologie der Babylonier: Anu was Saturn.

What makes this identity stand out is the degree to which one nation after another repeated the same connection. It's an interesting fact,not often noticed, that the ancient Hebrews regarded their race as having been "Saturnian" in the beginning, when they lived under the rule of the creator El. That is, the Hebrews honored the same ancestral tie to Saturn as did the Romans.
David Talbott
Very interesting post, which explains much about how humanity lost its way..thank you very much.

Above, you raise the Sumerian 'Anu' but you don't appear to mention the alleged race of 'Gods/ET's' called the 'Annunaki'. This is from Widipedia:

"The Anunnaki (also transcribed as: Anunnaku, Ananaki) are a group of Sumerian and Akkadian deities related to, and in some cases overlapping with, the Annuna (the 'Fifty Great Gods') and the Igigi (minor gods). The name is variously written "da-nuna", "da-nuna-ke4-ne", or "da-nun-na", meaning something to the effect of 'those of royal blood'[1] or 'princely offspring'[2] or "heaven and earth" (Anu-na-ki) The Annunaki appear in the Babylonian creation myth, Enuma Elish. In the late version magnifying Marduk, after the creation of mankind, Marduk divides the Anunnaki and assigns them to their proper stations, three hundred in heaven, three hundred on the earth.[3] In gratitude, the Annunaki, the "Great Gods", built Esagila, the splendid: "They raised high the head of Esagila equaling Apsu. Having built a stage-tower as high as Apsu, they set up in it an abode for Marduk, Enlil, Ea." Then they built their own shrines.

[15:50:35] The One says: According to later Babylonian myth, the Anunnaki were the children of Anu and Ki, brother and sister gods, themselves the children of Anshar and Kishar (Skypivot and Earthpivot, the Celestial poles). Anshar and Kishar were the children of Lahm and Lahmu ("the muddy ones"), names given to the gatekeepers of the Abzu temple at Eridu, the site at which the Creation was thought to have occurred. The head of the Anunnaki council was the Great Anu, (rather than being just a sky god, Anu in Sumerian actually means "sky"), of Uruk and the other members were his offspring. His place was taken by Enlil, (En=lord, lil=wind,air), who at some time was thought to have separated heaven and earth. This resulted in an ongoing dispute between Enlil of Nippur and his half brother Enki of Eridu regarding the legitimacy of Enlil's assumption of leadership. Enki, (En=lord, Ki=Earth), in addition to being the God of fresh water, was also God of wisdom and magic, regarded by some as an alchemist. When the Igigi went on strike and refused to continue to work maintaining the universe, on the Shappatu (Hebrew: שבת, Eng: Shabbath) Enki created humankind to assume responsibility for the tasks the Gods no longer performed. The Anunnaki were the High Council of the Gods, and Anu's companions. They were distributed through the Earth and the Underworld. The best known of them were Asaru, Asarualim, Asarualimnunna, Asaruludu, En-Ki (Ea for the Akkadians), Namru, Namtillaku and Tutu".


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anunnaki

-----

I was just wondering if you will be covering the children of 'Anu' (the Annunaki) in the future? Thanks.

Divinity

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Re: Questions and Answers...

Unread post by David Talbott » Fri May 16, 2008 1:50 pm

One thing we've realized is that it would be helpful to start a thread on questions and suggestions. I've asked the moderators to facilitate this, and to place the question about the Anunnaki into that thread. It's certainly a legitimate question, and I'll answer it there. (And yes, I do have some observations concerning the "children of Anu", based on a comparative approach.)

David Talbott

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Re: Questions and Answers...

Unread post by David Talbott » Fri May 16, 2008 6:05 pm

As a preliminary answer to the question above, I'll offer a few brief comments on the Anunnaki.

Our guide will be the principles of a comparative approach, because it is the archetypes or universal themes, brought to light by comparative study, that constitute the reliable substructure of human memory.

All of the ancient cultures tended to regard themselves as the children of the creator-king, seeing the creator as the great ancestor of their own race, while identifying other cultures and races with the clouds of darkness--the "fiends of chaos" that overtook the world when the celestial theater was thrown into turmoil. Though rooted in a collective memory, this tendency reveals one of the transparently self-serving motives affecting the cultural evolution of the myths across the centuries.

In creation mythology, particularly in the more archaic sources, very few themes are more consistently expressed than what I've called "the creative outflow." The myths speak of luminous material erupting explosively from the creator, or more specifically from his central eye or heart-soul. The Egyptians called this outflow the "primeval matter," identifying it as tears from the Eye of Ra, saliva, blood, semen, seed, or grain. But myth-making imagination also saw in this sea of material a mass of shining words--or "words of power"--shouted into existence by the creator. The language suggests that the events involved a noisy and tumultuous phase. And here, the primeval ("ancestral") generation comes into play, because this same erupting material was seen as luminous gods. The "words of power" spoken by Ra in the creation mean exactly the same thing as the "children of Ra" born from and as the god's tears.

The Anunnaki are a lively Mesopotamian counterpart to this creative outflow. But notice how later texts reduce them to semi-divine or merely human beings. In both the Egyptian and Mesopotamian cultures we can observe the evolution of mythic themes over time, seeing how both the created "gods" and the celestial temples or cities they are said to have brought forth are progressively localized, as if the events had occurred on earth. In fact, it is by this process of localization that the gods become "ancestors" of those telling the stories.

What is generally not realized is that the primeval generation of gods--the inhabitants of the emergent celestial city--are themselves indistinguishable from the primeval matter--the raw material of creation (what the alchemists called the prima materia). They "build" the city because they are the "stuff" of which the enclosure of the celestial city was constructed.
______________________

Well, I've been a bit cryptic here, having run out of time. But I do intend to discuss this subject in greater detail in a coming thread on "The Creation Myth."

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Re: Questions and Answers...

Unread post by Plasmatic » Fri May 16, 2008 8:28 pm

The Logos /temple of living stones comes to mind. Divine word at the "begining" etc.
"Logic is the art of non-contradictory identification"......" I am therefore Ill think"
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Re: Questions and Answers...

Unread post by moses » Sat May 17, 2008 2:43 am

My question is - if Saturn, Venus and Mars were at the northern pole,
which would be very unlikely to be where the pole is now, ie in the
Arctic Ocean, then what was at the southern pole, and what peoples
were drawing the different diagram depicting what was seen at the
southern pole, even if it was nothing at all ?

And now that Peratt's results resemble the proposed Saturn System
is there a portion of the Earth where such petroglyphs don't exist ?
Has the Saturn System theory been modified in light of Peratt's
findings ?

Mo

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Origins of Myth...

Unread post by dubliner » Sat May 17, 2008 7:38 am

Before the Golden Age,according to the Greek myth, there was Uranus,who was attacked by Cronus (Saturn) using a sickle.
What do you think could be the meaning of this myth?

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Re: Questions and Answers...

Unread post by David Talbott » Sat May 17, 2008 9:29 am

Hi Mo,

In the thread Plasma Sciences I take up the issue of what was seen and where in the sky. Certain questions need to stay open, but my own surmise is that the original "Polar Configuration" stood in the north, while the resurrected world, arising out of what I called "the phase of wandering," was seen in the southern hemisphere.

I suspect that Earth's north geographic pole remained essentially where it is today, though there are indications of a change in the polar positions on Mars. It is likely than an axial lock between Earth and Mars occurred before the final break-up of the configuration, which would explain both the similar rotational periods and the similar axial tilts of the two planets. A conventionally defined model would never predict that for two planets of different sizes and different positions in relation to the Sun. A tilted axis is an anomaly requiring an explanation. Two dissimilar planets with the same tilt and the same rotational period pose a much deeper mystery.

David Talbott

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Re: Questions and Answers...

Unread post by moses » Sun May 18, 2008 5:53 am

Having read Peratt Part II, a couple of things stand out. There are very few
petroglyphs in the plains, and it appears that Saturn, Venus and Mars were
near the south pole. I conclude that the Earth flipped at some stage, causing
widespread flooding and destroying any civilization. The survivors were
shocked and recorded the new situation as best they could. But the Saturn
System had not broken up, so this is yet another human catastrophe. There
were few or no petroglyphs before this flip, because there was widespread
civilization which was wiped out in the flip.
Mo

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Re: Origins of Myth...

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Sun May 18, 2008 6:32 am

dubliner wrote:Before the Golden Age,according to the Greek myth, there was Uranus,who was attacked by Cronus (Saturn) using a sickle.
What do you think could be the meaning of this myth?
My guess is that the symbolism concerns harvesting and reaping. Cronos is reaping what Uranus has sown . The castration of Uranus means that he wont be doing anymore sowing. Cronos is similarly castrated by Zeus.
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but people delight in complexity.
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Re: Questions and Answers...

Unread post by Plasmatic » Sun May 18, 2008 1:39 pm

See Child of Saturn By Dwardu :
If, therefore, as I have attempted to show, Janus was merely the Roman variation of the Greek Uranus, and/or both of them mere variations of the more ancient Anu or An, and if Janus was merely the alter-ego or alias of Saturn/Kronos, it follows that the Greek Uranus was also merely another name for Kronos/Saturn. If not etymology, comparative mythology demands this -- especially since Varuna, Anus, Anu, and An are also all identifiable as Saturn (see Appendix 1). From a Velikovskian point of view, the above is given additional substance by the fact that Osiris, the Egyptian Saturn,(23) was also known as An.(24)
Actually, I need not have taken such a circuitous route. I did so only to stem possible future squabbles. I could easily have guided the reader to the same conclusion merely by citing Sanchoniathon. He who called Athene the daughter of Kronos also made Kronos equivalent to Uranus.(25) This requires that Venus, both as Athene and Aphrodite, should be the offspring, not of the Jovian god-head, but of the Saturnian one. "Consensus of opinion" notwithstanding, I shall soon demonstrate that Sanchoniathon was correct.
From: Kronos Vol. VII No. 1 (Fall 1981)
"Logic is the art of non-contradictory identification"......" I am therefore Ill think"
Ayn Rand
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
Aristotle

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Saturn's Cycle of Brightening and Dimming

Unread post by Pomalee » Sun May 18, 2008 9:19 pm

From David Talbott's Thread "Origins of Myth", subsection "A Worldwide Theme":
Just as the Egyptian and Mesopotamian sun gods "rise and set" in one place, Surya occupies samanam dhama--"the same place of rising and setting." For the words translated as "rising" and "setting" to possess any intelligible meaning, one must refer (as in the case of Egypt discussed above) to a phase of brightening followed by a phase of dimming in a daily cycle.
:?: What is the mechanism for this cycle of brightening and dimming? How much contrast would exist between the two stages within the cycle?

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Re: Saturn's Cycle of Brightening and Dimming

Unread post by MGmirkin » Sun May 18, 2008 11:07 pm

Pomalee wrote:From David Talbott's Thread "Origins of Myth", subsection "A Worldwide Theme":
Just as the Egyptian and Mesopotamian sun gods "rise and set" in one place, Surya occupies samanam dhama--"the same place of rising and setting." For the words translated as "rising" and "setting" to possess any intelligible meaning, one must refer (as in the case of Egypt discussed above) to a phase of brightening followed by a phase of dimming in a daily cycle.
:?: What is the mechanism for this cycle of brightening and dimming? How much contrast would exist between the two stages within the cycle?
I think the proposed "mechanism" was at least partly illuminated (pardon the pun) in a couple of posts from the thread on "Crowns of Sages and Warrior Kings (Part 3)," but perhaps D.Talbott could be more explicit?

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Re: Saturn's Cycle of Brightening and Dimming

Unread post by David Talbott » Mon May 19, 2008 9:38 am

Pomalee wrote:What is the mechanism for this cycle of brightening and dimming? How much contrast would exist between the two stages within the cycle?
The best clues as to the cycle of day and night come from the role of a crescent on Saturn. Due to the polar station of Saturn, the crescent visually revolved around the sphere as the Earth rotated on its axis. I'll have plenty to say on this because the revolving crescent is one of the most specific acid tests. The evidence suggests that the crescent was not originally seen when the 8-rayed star first appeared in the center of Saturn. For want of better terminology, I called this primordial phase the "pre-dawn glow." In recent years, it's become clear that the ambient environment was electrically alive, obscuring direct illumination of the sphere of Saturn by the Sun.

The coming of the crescent was the emergence of a daily cycle from the more timeless epoch that preceded conscious timekeeping.
Polar configuration - crescent-small.jpg
(41.83 KiB) Downloaded 1551 times
Two Mesopotamian images of the crescent below (i.e., two of thousands) highlight its "midnight" position, when the configuration was its brightest.
MesoCrescent.jpg
MesoCrescent(2)-S.jpg
When the crescent was above (noon position in today's timekeeping language) it could not compete with the light of the Sun. This was the phase of dimming, giving rise to various words and images for above, upper, dim, night, inactivity, non-existence, sleep, death, peace, mysterious).

The more commonly recorded position of the crescent below (midnight position in today's timekeeping language), was the supreme moment of the celebrated "day," the configuration having exploded into life. Words and images inspired by this position include below, lower, day, bright, life, power, strong, awake, support, celebration, and more.

Taken as a whole, the evidence suggests that the coming of the crescent was remembered as a critical juncture, strongly associated with the "raising up of heaven" and the coming of the "first dawn." For this to make sense, we'll have to take up the role of the polar column, a dusty plasma discharge stream between Earth and Mars. When the column appeared it gave the midnight crescent the appearance of outstretched arms holding aloft the sphere of Saturn, though the same crescent was seen as the shining horns of a bull, and the twin peaks of the cosmic mountain. The emerging contrast between the phase of brightening (archaic "day") and phase of dimming (archaic "night") appears to have had a profound impact on human witnesses.

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Re: Questions and Answers...

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Mon May 19, 2008 11:05 am

Plasmatic wrote:See Child of Saturn By Dwardu :
If, therefore, as I have attempted to show, Janus was merely the Roman variation of the Greek Uranus, and/or both of them mere variations of the more ancient Anu or An, and if Janus was merely the alter-ego or alias of Saturn/Kronos, it follows that the Greek Uranus was also merely another name for Kronos/Saturn. If not etymology, comparative mythology demands this -- especially since Varuna, Anus, Anu, and An are also all identifiable as Saturn (see Appendix 1). From a Velikovskian point of view, the above is given additional substance by the fact that Osiris, the Egyptian Saturn,(23) was also known as An.(24)
Actually, I need not have taken such a circuitous route. I did so only to stem possible future squabbles. I could easily have guided the reader to the same conclusion merely by citing Sanchoniathon. He who called Athene the daughter of Kronos also made Kronos equivalent to Uranus.(25) This requires that Venus, both as Athene and Aphrodite, should be the offspring, not of the Jovian god-head, but of the Saturnian one. "Consensus of opinion" notwithstanding, I shall soon demonstrate that Sanchoniathon was correct.
From: Kronos Vol. VII No. 1 (Fall 1981)
Two different translations of Eusebius:
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/euseb ... _book1.htm
'And Uranus, having succeeded to his father's rule, takes to himself in marriage his sister Ge, and gets by her four sons, Elus who is also Kronos, and Baetylus, and Dagon who is Siton, and Atlas. Also by other wives Uranus begat a numerous progeny; on which account Ge was angry, and from jealousy began to reproach Uranus, so that they even separated from each other.

'To Kronos are born children, Persephone and Athena. The former died a virgin: but by the advice of Athena and Hermes Kronos made a sickle and a spear of iron.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/af/af01.htm
But Ouranus, succeeding to the kingdom of his father, contracted a marriage with his sister Ge, and had by her four sons, Ilus who is called Cronus, and Betylus, and Dagon, which signifies Siton (Bread-corn,) and Atlas.

And to Cronus were born children, Persephone and Athena; the former of whom died a virgin; but, by the advice of Athena and Hermes, Cronus made a scimitar and a spear of iron.
Both clearly state that Kronos is the son of Uranus.
Eusebius is the only source for Sanchoniathon. Given that Sanchoniathon is alleged to have lived in the pre-Homeric age, Philo and Eusebius are writing approximately 1,000 years later (Philo of Byblos c. 64-141 CE; Eusebius c 263 – 339 CE). Not to mention the fact that Eusebius in a Christian and is writing to 'prove' that paganism is inferior to Christianity. Eusebius was also one of the committee which 'invented' Christianity at the first Council of Nicea.


I've read the Sanchoniathon material in Eusebius and even accepting its euhemeristic take it is pretty incomprehensible.
I would like to read the rest of Cardona's piece to see how he gets Janus = Uranus and Varuna = Saturn.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

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