Is it just me, or does LIGO's 03 seem embarrassing?

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Michael Mozina
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Is it just me, or does LIGO's 03 seem embarrassing?

Unread post by Michael Mozina » Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:32 am

Is it just me, or is the deafening silence from LIGO's 2019 (03) run looking pretty suspicious and rather embarrassing at this point?

I recently downloaded LIGO's gravitational wave app for my iPhone. I see that there are something like 31 events marked "GW19...." suggesting that they've 'reported' 31 events this year which weren't injected signals and later retracted. The last one occurred a few days ago on the 15th of this month. They are assigned a range of "confidence" from a low of 49 percent to a high of 100 percent, with most of them listed in the 90+ percent category.

Even with three detectors however and the ability to isolate the signal to a much smaller region of the sky, and even with an improved ability to let astronomers know about the events in real time as they happen, I still don't see any evidence to suggest that any of them have been confirmed by any external piece of equipment, not by any telescopes and not from neutrino detectors. As far as I can tell, there hasn't been a single multi-messenger event in 2019, even though some of them are listed as binary neutron star events and black hole/neutron star merger events.

Am I the only one that finds the lack of confirmation of any of these events to be highly suspicious? How could every single one of these merger events take place without emitting enough light or emitting enough excess neutrinos to be detected by other types of equipment?

I must say, I'm actually starting to wonder if the single multimessenger event in 2017 was simply a statistical fluke, a random coincidence of lucky timing. It's just hard to believe that all these 2019 events release *massive* amounts of energy in the form of gravitational waves, and yet none of them emit anything substantial in the EM spectrum, or in increased neutrino emissions. It seems kinda fishy to me that they'd all be "naked" black hole merger events, and in fact some of them are listed as "BNS" merger events which should be visible events like the 2017 event.

It looks to me like LIGO/Virgo are 0 for 31 in terms of externally supporting any of their GW claims from this year. That's a pretty terrible batting average. :) I'm definitely not impressed. It's starting to look suspiciously like a Joseph Weber scenario all over again.
Last edited by nick c on Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: spelling correction to thread title

crawler
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Re: Is it just me, or does LIGO's 03 seem embarassing?

Unread post by crawler » Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:06 pm

At least with Weber he could recycle the aluminium or whatever.
How can they recycle LIGO?
Does LIGO measure anything useful?
It would make a great echo chamber.
I hav pointed out that LIGO is a 3rd order MMX, or can be.

But perhaps LIGO will end up like a kind of Noah's Ark museum &, a Cathedral to Einsteinology.
Worshippers could go from Nobel to Nobel, Saint to Saint, genuflecting & praying.
Its 8 km up & back, twice (16 km).
Pilgrims could travel from one site to the twin facility, & do it all again (32 km).
A new major Pilgrimage Route. Like Lourdes, like Mecca.

Cargo
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Re: Is it just me, or does LIGO's 03 seem embarassing?

Unread post by Cargo » Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:27 pm

That's a great question though. What could the LieGo tunnel be used for that might be real?

It's obviously very sensitive to something, therefore it could be useful with the right view point. They could make music from the Earth's quakes, mountains leaning, or bombs. Or could they detect the Aurora.
interstellar filaments conducted electricity having currents as high as 10 thousand billion amperes

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neilwilkes
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Re: Is it just me, or does LIGO's 03 seem embarassing?

Unread post by neilwilkes » Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:20 am

Gravitational Waves are like Dark Matter & Unicorns - mythical, with no basis in reality.
I suspect the 2017 "event" was system noise of some sort, and as for claims of "neutron Stars" merging, words simply fail me. Neutron Stars are also an invented object with absolutely no foundation in solid reality simply because you cannot have an object that comprises just Neutrons at all - it would fall well outside the bounds of Nuclear Stability.
I tried pointing this out to an astrophysicist once and what a waste of time & effort that was, as all he could say was that he was talking about physics, not Chemistry. I stopped bothering at that point as it would have been futile to continue. We are talking about an almost religious fervour with these people as what they do is preach dogma, not practise actual science.

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Michael Mozina
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Re: Is it just me, or does LIGO's 03 seem embarassing?

Unread post by Michael Mozina » Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:01 pm

It seems more than a tad suspicious that each of these 31 O3 GW events presumably releases more energy in a fraction of a second in the form of gravitational waves, than all the stars in the host galaxy combined release in the EM spectrum during that same timeframe, yet somehow every single one of those 31 events are "invisible" on the EM spectrum. Something doesn't add up. Why aren't other astronomers able to confirm *any* of these GW events in EM radiation, or in increased neutrino emissions?

Ya know.....

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/na ... -ray-burst

If LIGO keeps asserting that a GW signal occurs every few days, it's statically possible that a real celestial event will just so happen to roughly coincide with one or more of their numerous claims. If these are in fact "real" celestial events, why aren't they able to confirm them as multimessenger events on a regular basis? Why would every BBH merger event occur between "naked" black holes, and why would they all be "invisible" on the EM spectrum? Why haven't any of the BNS events been verified externally since the single event in 2017?

The single "multimessenger" event from 2017 could in fact have been a statistical fluke, and could have been caused by an unrelated celestial event that just so happened to roughly coincide with their supposed "signal". Admittedly there are plenty of obvious scientific reasons to give LIGO the benefit of the doubt on that *one* specific multimessenger event, but the fact it's the single exception rather than the rule seems more than a tad suspicious to me.

It could also be that the one multimessenger event in 2017 was a "real" GW wave event, but none of the other claimed events was "real".

Why aren't they able to duplicate such multimessenger events, and why are almost all of their GW waves signals incapable of being confirmed by external celestial observation?

Even as a fan of GR theory, and even as someone who would *like* to believe that gravitational waves have been observed, I'm finding it very difficult to believe they've been observed by LIGO anymore than I believe that Joseph Weber observed any such waves with his now infamous "Weber bars". It wouldn't be the first time that anyone cried "wolf" based on this same basic technology when there was no actual wolf.

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Zyxzevn
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Re: Is it just me, or does LIGO's 03 seem embarassing?

Unread post by Zyxzevn » Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:52 pm

Michael Mozina wrote:It seems more than a tad suspicious that each of these 31 O3 GW events presumably releases more energy in a fraction of a second in the form of gravitational waves, than all the stars in the host galaxy combined release in the EM spectrum during that same timeframe, yet somehow every single one of those 31 events are "invisible" on the EM spectrum.
Yes. Until now there has been no high energetic event that emits no radiation at all.
Even the object that are called "black holes" emit enormous amounts of light in the form of plasma beams.

But that is what theoretical physics does: It makes physics more and more theoretical.

And with a noise generator, that sometimes picks up electrical signals itself,
the LIGO is a gold-mine for papers and PhD students.
More ** from zyxzevn at: Paradigm change and C@

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Re: Is it just me, or does LIGO's 03 seem embarassing?

Unread post by Michael Mozina » Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:58 pm

Well, as we approach the 8 month mark of the O3 run of LIGO, it's quite telling IMO that not one single additional "multimessenger" event has been observed in spite of the fact that LIGO has issued far more "detection" events in 03 than in 01 and 02 combined. Not a single additional "detection" of a supposed gravitational wave in 03 has a visual or neutrino counterpart.

In addition, LIGO has been forced to "retract" quite a large number of their supposed detection events, and the letter coding at the end of each supposed 'detection" demonstrates that they experience on a daily basis, quite a large number of "blip transients" that generate a signal that is very similar to what they're calling a gravitational wave "detection".

IMO LIGO has painted themselves right into the very same corner that Joseph Webber painted himself into, only this time each new "detector" costs hundreds of billions of dollars to build. To date, there's no physical evidence from the entire 03 run that these "events"/signals are even celestial in origin.

crawler
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Re: Is it just me, or does LIGO's 03 seem embarassing?

Unread post by crawler » Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:59 pm

I suppose that LIGO is looking for a GW signal to be detected (1) at both of the detectors & (2) with a time difference of no more than c/distance tween the two detectors, & (3) that the signal be identical at both detectors.

Hencely i suppose that they wont declare a hit unless they can tick all three criteria.
So, which criteria is missing?
I vote that (2) is the primary offender/culprit.

But anyhow there aint no such thing as an Einsteinian GW.
What we have is Newtonian GWs (ie near binary stars), & these NGWs are very weak & mainly exist in the nearfield of a binary, & these NGWs do not grow stronger as a merger/collision progresses.

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neilwilkes
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Re: Is it just me, or does LIGO's 03 seem embarassing?

Unread post by neilwilkes » Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:03 am

crawler wrote:At least with Weber he could recycle the aluminium or whatever.
How can they recycle LIGO?
Does LIGO measure anything useful?
It would make a great echo chamber.
I hav pointed out that LIGO is a 3rd order MMX, or can be.

But perhaps LIGO will end up like a kind of Noah's Ark museum &, a Cathedral to Einsteinology.
Worshippers could go from Nobel to Nobel, Saint to Saint, genuflecting & praying.
Its 8 km up & back, twice (16 km).
Pilgrims could travel from one site to the twin facility, & do it all again (32 km).
A new major Pilgrimage Route. Like Lourdes, like Mecca.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Is it just me, or does LIGO's 03 seem embarrassing?

Unread post by Solar » Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:44 pm

If you do not know why your detector detects something that does not look like what you expect, how can you trust it in the cases where it does see what you expect?- What’s up with LIGO? - September 04, 2019
Have we really measured gravitational waves? Nov 2, 2019 - Sabine Hossenfelder
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden

Sci-Phy
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Re: Is it just me, or does LIGO's 03 seem embarrassing?

Unread post by Sci-Phy » Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:17 am

The waves without media are nonsense.
When the amplitude of the wave is growing, the elasticity of the media acts as the returning force.
The more displacement is, the greater returning force is.
When the amplitude of EM or gravity wave is growing - what is the mechanism of stopping that growing?
Why suddenly it decreases? The field do not interact with field and there are nothing else in empty space.
Cheers.

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paladin17
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Re: Is it just me, or does LIGO's 03 seem embarrassing?

Unread post by paladin17 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:33 am

Sci-Phy wrote: When the amplitude of EM or gravity wave is growing - what is the mechanism of stopping that growing?
EM waves are excitations of the electromagnetic field. The amplitude of "growing" is determined by the amount of energy in the excitation.
Gravitational waves are perturbations of matter distribution (i.e. all the fields combined).

Sci-Phy
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Re: Is it just me, or does LIGO's 03 seem embarrassing?

Unread post by Sci-Phy » Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:19 am

paladin17 wrote:EM waves are excitations of the electromagnetic field. The amplitude of "growing" is determined by the amount of energy in the excitation.
The waves on the string are displacement of particles of that string. Particles move up and down. The returning force is the elasticity of the spring. The particles of the spring are moving according to sine function, which corresponds to linear returning force F=-kx.
Now when excitation of electromagnetic field grows according to sine function, at some moment this excitation change direction and starts to decrease. What stops this "excitation" from growing even more? The energy of excitation is constant and could not be responsible for sine-like behavior.

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paladin17
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Re: Is it just me, or does LIGO's 03 seem embarrassing?

Unread post by paladin17 » Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:51 am

Sci-Phy wrote:Now when excitation of electromagnetic field grows according to sine function, at some moment this excitation change direction and starts to decrease. What stops this "excitation" from growing even more? The energy of excitation is constant and could not be responsible for sine-like behavior.
In this case you might as well introduce the same concepts of "elasticity" and "returning force", since you're satisfied with that type of explanation.

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Re: Is it just me, or does LIGO's 03 seem embarrassing?

Unread post by Sci-Phy » Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:12 am

paladin17 wrote:In this case you might as well introduce the same concepts of "elasticity" and "returning force", since you're satisfied with that type of explanation.
Let me repeat the question. In the case of wave on the string - some particle of the string was displaced from equilibrium position by excitation and then returned back by elastic force of the spring.
Now we switch to EM wave in the vacuum. At certain point of space electric field starts grow. When the value of electric field reached certain number, the electric field starts to decrease. It's a sine, right?
What physical effect stops electric field from grow to infinity?
Are you saying that the reason is elasticity of electric field?
Cheers.

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