Gravity, Mass and Charge during Earth's Yearly Orbit

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JP Michael
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Gravity, Mass and Charge during Earth's Yearly Orbit

Unread post by JP Michael » Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:58 pm

In comment to Don Scott's Thunderbolt video here, he mentions that the earth gains positive charge at aphelion and begins to lose it again as it approaches perihelion.

If this is so, is there any way to reliably measure or approximate:
  • 1. The amount of charge gained or lost at both aphelion and perihelion and the earth's approaches thereto;

    2. Change in the earth's effective mass due to the difference in charge, assuming mass is a property of charge as Wal Thornill claims;

    3. Change in the earth's effective gravity due to the difference in effective mass;

    4. Observable phenomena that might confirm 2 and 3, perhaps relating most poignantly to the orbit of the moon (apogee and perigee) at those times since it is the closest and most easily observable object held by earth's gravity; alternatively a man-made orbiting satellite (ISS?)

Aardwolf
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Re: Gravity, Mass and Charge during Earth's Yearly Orbit

Unread post by Aardwolf » Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:19 am

Very difficult to measure for sure as gravity is fluctuating all the time, however, GRACE has measured it but their explanation is underground water (they had to think of something).

Seasonal gravity changes estimated from GRACE data
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 4715302172

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paladin17
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Re: Gravity, Mass and Charge during Earth's Yearly Orbit

Unread post by paladin17 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:42 am

If Earth's mass changes with charge, and charge changes along the orbit, the orbit of the Moon (as well as orbits of any artificial satellites) would change as the year goes by. It doesn't happen. Therefore, the initial claim is wrong.

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Re: Gravity, Mass and Charge during Earth's Yearly Orbit

Unread post by Aardwolf » Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:51 am

paladin17 wrote:If Earth's mass changes with charge, and charge changes along the orbit, the orbit of the Moon (as well as orbits of any artificial satellites) would change as the year goes by. It doesn't happen. Therefore, the initial claim is wrong.
Then you have a fundamental misunderstanding of orbit mechanics. Any satellites distance from the main body, the route taken and the time taken to orbit varies for each cycle. Any specific figures you read in a book or online are averages.

That you even mention artificial satellites in this context reveals much. Satellites are steered with thrusters to keep them in stable orbit. Leave them alone and they drift.

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Re: Gravity, Mass and Charge during Earth's Yearly Orbit

Unread post by paladin17 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:22 am

Aardwolf wrote:
paladin17 wrote:If Earth's mass changes with charge, and charge changes along the orbit, the orbit of the Moon (as well as orbits of any artificial satellites) would change as the year goes by. It doesn't happen. Therefore, the initial claim is wrong.
Then you have a fundamental misunderstanding of orbit mechanics. Any satellites distance from the main body, the route taken and the time taken to orbit varies for each cycle. Any specific figures you read in a book or online are averages.

That you even mention artificial satellites in this context reveals much. Satellites are steered with thrusters to keep them in stable orbit. Leave them alone and they drift.
Then please, show a yearly signal in orbital parameters. It should be easy with your advanced level of understanding.

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Re: Gravity, Mass and Charge during Earth's Yearly Orbit

Unread post by Aardwolf » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:45 am

paladin17 wrote:
Aardwolf wrote:
paladin17 wrote:If Earth's mass changes with charge, and charge changes along the orbit, the orbit of the Moon (as well as orbits of any artificial satellites) would change as the year goes by. It doesn't happen. Therefore, the initial claim is wrong.
Then you have a fundamental misunderstanding of orbit mechanics. Any satellites distance from the main body, the route taken and the time taken to orbit varies for each cycle. Any specific figures you read in a book or online are averages.

That you even mention artificial satellites in this context reveals much. Satellites are steered with thrusters to keep them in stable orbit. Leave them alone and they drift.
Then please, show a yearly signal in orbital parameters. It should be easy with your advanced level of understanding.
Too many variables for anyone to be able to do that. How exactly am I to determine all the relevant bodies variation in charge? However GRACE measured the gravitational pull of Earth and found a seasonal variable. See link above. Explain how the Earths mass changes seasonally?

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Re: Gravity, Mass and Charge during Earth's Yearly Orbit

Unread post by paladin17 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:51 pm

Aardwolf wrote:
paladin17 wrote:
Aardwolf wrote:
paladin17 wrote:If Earth's mass changes with charge, and charge changes along the orbit, the orbit of the Moon (as well as orbits of any artificial satellites) would change as the year goes by. It doesn't happen. Therefore, the initial claim is wrong.
Then you have a fundamental misunderstanding of orbit mechanics. Any satellites distance from the main body, the route taken and the time taken to orbit varies for each cycle. Any specific figures you read in a book or online are averages.

That you even mention artificial satellites in this context reveals much. Satellites are steered with thrusters to keep them in stable orbit. Leave them alone and they drift.
Then please, show a yearly signal in orbital parameters. It should be easy with your advanced level of understanding.
Too many variables for anyone to be able to do that. How exactly am I to determine all the relevant bodies variation in charge? However GRACE measured the gravitational pull of Earth and found a seasonal variable. See link above. Explain how the Earths mass changes seasonally?
So you basically have no evidence. You should have started from that.

GRACE has found local seasonal gravitational anomalies, not the changes in the mass of the Earth as a whole (in which case the mission would have failed altogether, as I've said, since it initially relied on precise knowing of the gravitational parameter of the Earth and even higher order corrections such as the equatorial bulge).

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JP Michael
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Re: Gravity, Mass and Charge during Earth's Yearly Orbit

Unread post by JP Michael » Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:58 pm

I would like to emphasise two points:
  • 1. The change in charge (and therefore potential changes in mass and gravity) are negligible on the macro scale between aphelion and perihelion of the earth's rotation. We should not expect generally radical departures of current stable orbits of our satellites, natural or man-made, solely as a result of seasonal variables. The system is stable. We already know that. The GRACE experiment utilised the stable, macro-scale average of earth mass and gravity to undertake their calculations. They had no reason to do otherwise.

    2. Such changes, if present, should still be measureable in the orbital distances of satellites when compared to the seasonal cycle of the Earth's orbit-charge. Averages do not suffice such an investigation. Specific, high-accuracy figures linked to time/season of the year are necessary, such as those given in the postulated table of earth's own aphelion and perihelion in the years to come (which are still estimates). Differences might only range in the tens or hundreds of kilometres in the case of Earth-Moon or Earth-Satellite (in the case of Earth-Sun, it is in the thousands), but could point to key evidence that changing charge is resulting in changing mass and therefore gravity, in turn affecting satellite orbits ever so slightly day by day, month by month, year by year.
Please do not simplify what is clearly a complex set of potential interrelationships.

The whole point of this discussion is to present a potential method by which Thornill and Scott's hypotheses can be empirically examined. If the earth's charge varies, however slight, season to season, there ought to be resulting changes in earth mass and gravity, however slight, season to season. The question then becomes a search to see if extant or new data supports or denies the hypothesis.

Of course there can be a myriad of other reasons for seasonal fluctuations in gravity and satellite orbits, but I present this scenario as pertinent to some of the key assumptions of the Electric Universe Model.

Paladin17 has asserted that it is not the case but has not produced data with a sufficiently accurate margin of error, neither has he provided a detailed seasonal comparison of orbital distances against inbound or outbound seasonal charge (then again, neither have I; this thread primarily represents a thought experiment for now). I believe this case is still open to question.

The findings, if positive, can be used to test examples of such slight gravitational anomalies in other systems. Saturn and its myriad of moons and rings would be another ideal test case, although perhaps somewhat difficult to compute the fine data required for accurate calculations of minor seasonable variations in charge, mass and gravity, not to mention its 10,756 day solar orbital cycle.

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paladin17
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Re: Gravity, Mass and Charge during Earth's Yearly Orbit

Unread post by paladin17 » Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:16 am

JP Michael wrote: Paladin17 has asserted that it is not the case but has not produced data with a sufficiently accurate margin of error, neither has he provided a detailed seasonal comparison of orbital distances against inbound or outbound seasonal charge (then again, neither have I; this thread primarily represents a thought experiment for now). I believe this case is still open to question.
What kind of data you want me to produce? I mean, what exactly do you expect to change from season to season due to some yet unexplained, but possibly related to Earth's charge reasons?
You see, one cannot verify or falsify a vague hypothesis. "Something changes due to additional charge" - well, OK, maybe? But this is not a hypothesis. I'd claim it's just a tautology. Yes, if you'd charge the Earth, something would surely change. At the very least its electric charge.
Now, the question is, what should we look for to confirm that the Earth charges/discharges on a yearly basis? What exact effects would your hypothesis predict? Additional precession of the line of nodes of satellites? Periodic increase or decrease in their orbital period/semimajor axis? Etc. If you formulate the hypothesis exactly (e.g. "Earth's surface has extra positive charge in northern winter, when it's closer to the Sun"), we can check the implications of that quite easily.

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Re: Gravity, Mass and Charge during Earth's Yearly Orbit

Unread post by JP Michael » Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:45 am

JP Michael wrote:2. Such changes, if present, should still be measureable in the orbital distances of satellites when compared to the seasonal cycle of the Earth's orbit-charge.
Please read more carefully. I already clearly indicated one specific example. Maybe I can crystallise this better:

If earth's charge changes with seasonal direction changes in current, its relative mass and gravity should also change with season, albeit by amounts that do not overall peturb stable satellite orbits. These seasonal variations in mass and gravity might be measurable by recording miniscule changes in the orbital distance of the moon at apogee, perigee and semi-minor axes, relative to the earth charge season.

The effects are primarily what earth's gravity should be affecting, namely the earth's grip upon the moon and man-made satellites. I am somewhat reticent to suggest measurements of the latter due to a myriad of additional variables correcting artificial satellite position but perhaps these corrections could be useful data. The moon's apogee and perigee, as well as its semi-minor axes, would certainly be the easiest to measure potential seasonal variations, though, due to the fact that the moon will be at any one of these during various seasonal earth charge cycles.

I did like your point, though:
paladin17 wrote:"Earth's surface has extra positive charge in northern winter, when it's closer to the Sun"
This made me think: I simply do not know anything about what effect gaining or losing positive charge has on overall charge, and thus mass and gravity. Perhaps the seasonal cycle of in-out doesn't actually change the overall earth charge, thus has no measurable effect on earth mass or gravity. I wonder if the same can be said of comets, since they experience radically changing environments of charge. That would be very difficult to research and observe, though.

And if you can't tell, I'm not a trained physicist. I came here to float and debate ideas, not do math. If someone wants to do that they're more than welcome to.

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Re: Gravity, Mass and Charge during Earth's Yearly Orbit

Unread post by Aardwolf » Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:34 am

paladin17 wrote:
Aardwolf wrote:
paladin17 wrote:
Aardwolf wrote:
paladin17 wrote:If Earth's mass changes with charge, and charge changes along the orbit, the orbit of the Moon (as well as orbits of any artificial satellites) would change as the year goes by. It doesn't happen. Therefore, the initial claim is wrong.
Then you have a fundamental misunderstanding of orbit mechanics. Any satellites distance from the main body, the route taken and the time taken to orbit varies for each cycle. Any specific figures you read in a book or online are averages.

That you even mention artificial satellites in this context reveals much. Satellites are steered with thrusters to keep them in stable orbit. Leave them alone and they drift.
Then please, show a yearly signal in orbital parameters. It should be easy with your advanced level of understanding.
Too many variables for anyone to be able to do that. How exactly am I to determine all the relevant bodies variation in charge? However GRACE measured the gravitational pull of Earth and found a seasonal variable. See link above. Explain how the Earths mass changes seasonally?
So you basically have no evidence. You should have started from that.
The information isn't available for anyone not just me, however, are you still standing by your comment that the moon and artificial satellites orbits never change?
paladin17 wrote:GRACE has found local seasonal gravitational anomalies, not the changes in the mass of the Earth as a whole (in which case the mission would have failed altogether, as I've said, since it initially relied on precise knowing of the gravitational parameter of the Earth and even higher order corrections such as the equatorial bulge).
And how exactly does GRACE measure the gravity of the Earth as a whole? Do you have any idea how this experiment works?

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Re: Gravity, Mass and Charge during Earth's Yearly Orbit

Unread post by paladin17 » Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:27 pm

JP Michael wrote: If earth's charge changes with seasonal direction changes in current, its relative mass and gravity should also change with season, albeit by amounts that do not overall peturb stable satellite orbits. These seasonal variations in mass and gravity might be measurable by recording miniscule changes in the orbital distance of the moon at apogee, perigee and semi-minor axes, relative to the earth charge season.
OK then, that's something measurable. If you exclude (in case of the Moon) tidal forces, angular momentum exchange, perturbations from other planets, instrumental errors etc. and still see some oscillatory signal, then that might be what you're looking for. As I understand, the residuals in current models of the lunar motion are of the order of 1 cm.
JP Michael wrote: I did like your point, though:
paladin17 wrote:"Earth's surface has extra positive charge in northern winter, when it's closer to the Sun"
This made me think: I simply do not know anything about what effect gaining or losing positive charge has on overall charge, and thus mass and gravity. Perhaps the seasonal cycle of in-out doesn't actually change the overall earth charge, thus has no measurable effect on earth mass or gravity. I wonder if the same can be said of comets, since they experience radically changing environments of charge. That would be very difficult to research and observe, though.
I think the change in Earth's charge might be detected in situ by observing the electric field in the atmosphere (or, alternatively, the ionospheric potential). Though it is actually dependent on space weather factors quite a lot (including even the time of day - see Fig. 1). (A brilliant review on that topic). Then there are longer time factors - e.g. the cosmic ray ionization of the troposphere is stronger during solar minimum (like right now). And cosmic rays also deliver a net positive charge, which should be dealt with somehow.
Overall, given the extremely complex multi-layered system (even the word "system" sounds too simple here) that is Earth I wouldn't expect naive electrostatic models to give any insights into the physics of our environment. All the observations indicate that the objects immersed in space plasmas act quite differently than a charged metallic ball in a vacuum would.
Last edited by paladin17 on Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Gravity, Mass and Charge during Earth's Yearly Orbit

Unread post by paladin17 » Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:44 pm

Aardwolf wrote:The information isn't available for anyone not just me, however, are you still standing by your comment that the moon and artificial satellites orbits never change?
I didn't say they never change. They do change, and there are plenty of known factors: tidal forces, disturbances from other planets, even solar radiation and solar wind pressure and atmospheric drag (for artificial satellites). What I did claim is that these changes are not caused by a seasonal charging and recharging of the Earth. Even more precisely: I did claim that there is no evidence for changes being caused by this.
Aardwolf wrote: And how exactly does GRACE measure the gravity of the Earth as a whole? Do you have any idea how this experiment works?
They don't measure it. They use an existing model. What they do measure is slight deviations (with respect to the existing model) of the orbits of satellites, caused by local gravitational anomalies. If the initial model would be incorrect (say, if the Earth suddenly became heavier), these changes would be a bit more than slight. I.e. the orbital parameters of both satellites would start drifting in a certain manner. Same is true for GPS satellites, geostationary satellites, Earth observing satellites in Sun-synchronous orbit etc. All of them would suddenly feel the increase in gravitational parameter of Earth.
BTW, would this hypothetical mass increase affect us here on Earth? Maybe we shouldn't go very far and just measure the weight of something very precisely and see if something changes with the time of year - and by how much.

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Re: Gravity, Mass and Charge during Earth's Yearly Orbit

Unread post by JP Michael » Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:08 pm

These are excellent points, paladin17. Thank you!

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Re: Gravity, Mass and Charge during Earth's Yearly Orbit

Unread post by dren » Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:10 am

My precision scale says I've gained 30lbs over the last decade, so surely the Earth is taking on charge and increasing mass over the same time period!

Thanks again Palidin for providing links to papers that I'm unaware of. I'm enjoying the solar wind - atmospheric electricity - cloud paper, currently.

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