Are Electric Currents "Frozen In" to Plasma?

Many Internet forums have carried discussion of the Electric Universe hypothesis. Much of that discussion has added more confusion than clarity, due to common misunderstandings of the electrical principles. Here we invite participants to discuss their experiences and to summarize questions that have yet to be answered.

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mharratsc
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Re: Are Electric Currents "Frozen In" to Plasma?

Unread post by mharratsc » Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:53 pm

:P Ya know Michel, you certainly popped off a little bit defensively there... in what way did you feel threatened? You *know* that EM fields cannot be frozen into a naturally-occurring plasma any more than a naturally-occurring plasma's resistivity cannot be zero, right? Why crawl all over me like I'm your enemy? :?

You said:
The answer is simply: generally they are not frozen-in.
This is mainstream understanding.
However, the frozen-in conditions are often met in practice, at least approximatively.
There is a marked difference between a guy who is trying to simplify some equations while he's working on a tokamak reactor, and an Astrophysicist or Astronomer who is trying to analyze an observed phenomena in deep space and trying to understand what they are looking at! Astrophysicists and Astronomers are observational scientists- their job is to report what they preceive at the farthest reaches of Mankind's vision, and report it as accurately and precisely as possible. They have no business using shortcuts like 'assuming infinite conductivity/frozen EM field in a given reference frame' than they have to round up to the nearest whole number!

Maybe you missed my point- I'll admit that I didn't specify whom the subject of my focus was:

'Astrophysicists, Astronomers, and anyone who works with them in trying to understand the specifics of the physical phenomena we witness in the Universe around us.'

I thought it was pretty apparent that most of the topics found on this board are pretty much aimed towards the competing cosmologies- the Mainstream vs. IEEE's Plasma Cosmology, and it's off-shoot the Electric Universe.

It was a bit insecure of you to presume I was chastising engineers for making a mathematical shortcut in an equation to simplify a parameter in an experiment, I think. :oops:

Last but not least- I wouldn't give too much credit to those Astro guys when it comes to understanding plasma physics- we can cite *numerous* examples of them stating things like: permanently frozen-in magnetic fields (that were generating current!), open-ended magnetic lines of force, lines of force twisting/snapping/breaking/reconnecting, etc. :P

No hard feelings tho, bud! I'm built tough enough that a few cracks against my 'though processes' don't really bother me- I'm pretty proud of what little I have learned so far, and with no professional education in the subject as a basis for it! :)

Mike H.
Mike H.

"I have no fear to shout out my ignorance and let the Wise correct me, for every instance of such narrows the gulf between them and me." -- Michael A. Harrington

mharratsc
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Re: Are Electric Currents "Frozen In" to Plasma?

Unread post by mharratsc » Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:57 pm

One other thing too, Michel...
On the experimental side, it is quite funny that they seem to know more about the Z-pinch than about the tokamak!
Yet, there is quite a lot of physics to be observed and analysed going on in tokamaks!
Z-pinches occur rather naturally all over the place in nature. My limited understanding (as a layman) regarding tokamak reactors, is that they attempt to bottle a really, really, REALLY hot plasma in an attempt to create a self-sustaining nuclear fusion reaction (like they seem to think is going on at the core of the Sun, vs. at the photosphere where the Sun is at it's hottest and the actual fusion seems to take place).

By contrast, a Z-pinch will pull loose surrounding matter and compress and heat it in a small sphere, which is what Plasma Cosmologists state causes stars to form, galaxies, etc. Replicating this effect in laboratory experiments has led to the development of the [url2=http://www.plasma-universe.com/index.ph ... asma_focus]Dense Plasma Focus[/url2], which scientists like Eric Lerner and the [url2=http://focusfusion.org/]Focus Fusion Society[/url2] are attempting to use as a means of generating clean, affordable power in line with how it is seen to occur in nature.

However, in all seriousness and honesty- if you feel that your knowledge learned while working on tokamaks can help us to better understand plasma physics on a level that is applicable to Plasma Cosmology- please and by all means share with us.
Myself and I think many other of the non-scientific proponents of Plasma Cosmology, are still in the process of learning all that we can about how plasma physics can account for so much of the observed phenomena reported by mainstream astronomy. Sadly, most of the real plasma physicists behind Plasma Cosmology are too busy with their 'real jobs' to post on every question or topic. It leaves us layman-types asking lots of questions but not getting lots of answers :\
I, for one, would welcome a plasma physicist willing to discuss some of the intricacies of the field, and I'm sure that there are many, many others here who would feel the same way! :)

Mike H.
Mike H.

"I have no fear to shout out my ignorance and let the Wise correct me, for every instance of such narrows the gulf between them and me." -- Michael A. Harrington

seasmith
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Re: Are Electric Currents "Frozen In" to Plasma?

Unread post by seasmith » Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:59 pm

Currents in Plasma
Superconductivity vs Superinsulation

Scientists at the U.S. Department of Energy's Argonne National Laboratory have discovered the microscopic mechanism behind the phenomenon of superinsulation, the ability of certain materials to completely block the flow of electric current at low temperatures.
... In arrays of tunnel junctions that are the basic building units of modern electronics...

First, the passing electrons lose their energy not directly to the heat bath; they transfer their energy to electron-hole plasma, which they generate themselves,”
... but below certain temperatures, electrons and holes become bound into pairs ...
“Electron-hole plasma disappears from the game and electrons cannot generate the energy exchange necessary for tunneling...
Begs the question of exactly how to define "Electric Currents" and "Plasma".


http://www.nanowerk.com/news/newsid=139 ... gy+News%29

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jone dae
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Re: Are Electric Currents "Frozen In" to Plasma?

Unread post by jone dae » Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:18 am

I would like to point out, that the link to Don Scott's paper, which is on this webpage, is dead. The website times out, doesn't answer, is probably gone. I've found other dead links related to Don Scott, so this is not surprising. However, I did find a link to the paper here: http://web.archive.org/web/201107211812 ... ug2007.pdf }which you can put on your webpage now.
BTW for those who still don't know, I'm a friend of Jae Kamel's. He's a retired professional researcher, and we've been making Lists that include valuable information about the Electric Universe, etc., and we distribute out LIsts via e-mail for the time being (although websites are "in the works"). So, links to some of our work, that is, redistributions of some of your (plural) work, can be found here http://bit.ly/qh4KzU and http://bit.ly/rSF161 . The second link has many of the papers. We're redoing website links that were in IE format to be also in Firefox HTML format, etc., and many improvements. We're also going to add more papers and documents that's you'll want to look at to that folder soon. That is, some background to how we found your dead link and a replacement link for it, why I'm sending it to you, etc. That is, neither one of us are working academics or scientists, but we still think that it is very, very important for each human to know that truth about the world they live in, and themselves, so that they can think and behave sanely. And so we spend a lot of time trying to teach people here and via the web, e-mail, FB, etc., about the electromagnetic nature of our world and and cosmos, etc. -Would love a reply from someone. Jone Dae.
I should add, an example of a List that tells about your work, The Free List, can be found here http://bit.ly/xTMMZM . Image gallery from HST, here http://on.fb.me/GD62eQ and ; http://bit.ly/xkG8AI , which we made ourselves by hand.

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nick c
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Re: Are Electric Currents "Frozen In" to Plasma?

Unread post by nick c » Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:31 pm

hi jone dae,
I updated the link to the Scott paper referenced in the original post for this thread.
here it is again:
http://electric-cosmos.org/IEEE-TransPl ... ug2007.pdf

Here is the current link to the index for the Electric Cosmos site:
http://electric-cosmos.org/indexOLD.htm

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jone dae
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Re: Are Electric Currents "Frozen In" to Plasma?

Unread post by jone dae » Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:39 am

Thank you, Nick C.
I also wondered, have you found a way to receive e-mail notification of when someone replies to a Thunderblogs post? I was thinking that, since you're the moderator for this thread, that you might now. I have checked my settings and such, several times, but still don't receive notifications of when some one has replied to a post or reply of mine, and so, often find out about it later, sometimes much later; I would would prefer to reply more promptly.
Jone Dae

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nick c
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Re: Are Electric Currents "Frozen In" to Plasma?

Unread post by nick c » Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:57 pm

hi jone dae,
have you found a way to receive e-mail notification of when someone replies to a Thunderblogs post?
I assume that by "Thunderblogs" you mean this forum. (There is a Thunderblog section here, but there is no venue for any replies.)
If you want to receive an email notification for replies to a thread on which you have a post or posts:
-click on the "user control panel"
-click on "board preferences"
-click on "edit posting defaults"
-select "yes" after "Notify me upon replies by default"

I do not use this function but I think that should do it, you should receive an email notification of a reply to your posts. Let me know if that does not work.

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jone dae
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Re: Are Electric Currents "Frozen In" to Plasma?

Unread post by jone dae » Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:42 pm

Thank you for your reply. So, I'm spread pretty thin, as the old saying goes, and don't give these forums as much of my time as I'd like to. That is probably why I missed the details in the settings and such, which you sent to me. I also had the impression that all these forums collectively are called "thunderblogs", but used your link, and can see that there is another category of apparently blogs. So, are these forums not listed there? It would be useful if there was a clear site map to look at. Anyway, thanks for your help. You know, if they didn't have walk-throughs and tutorials on Wordpress, I wouldn't have known what to do there.
Apparently this sort of thing often happens to people with high IQs. In one of the Hi-Q Societies that I belonged to, there was a cartoon by a famous cartoonist, taken from the SF Chronicle, and we liked it so well we had t-shirts made with the cartoon on it. It showed, an old style brick building, with steps leading up to a door. The sign said, "School For Gifted Children", and showed a boy with books under his arm, glasses on, and with one arm pushing the door to the school open. Or rather, trying to: the sign on the door said "pull".
I hope to receive more on-topic replies to my posts soon.
Jone Dae

jjohnson
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Re: Are Electric Currents "Frozen In" to Plasma?

Unread post by jjohnson » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:28 pm

Jone,

That cartoon was drawn by Seattle cartoonist Gary Larsen, whose cartoons are, well, original and hilarious. I hope you got to see his 30-minute animated cartoon, made with a local friend of his. I think it only appeared on TV once, without much notice, and I just lucked out one evening when it came on. I haven't thought about it in, oh, 20 years, and don't know if it's ever been posted on YouTube or anywhere else. Deer in the headlights, weird insects flying a plane and eating weird things for snacks in the cabin (and each other) and much more. His books of collected cartoons are really cool, too.

Hope the system notifies you of a response, now.

Jim

ekimmu777
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Re: Are Electric Currents "Frozen In" to Plasma?

Unread post by ekimmu777 » Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:49 am

THEMIS data clearly shows electrified dynamic plasmas. not "frozen". check out my whitehouse petition to use MHD to create electricity from these cosmic sources. the signatures are important to raise awarness of the technology. http://wh.gov/dNkD

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jone dae
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Re: Are Electric Currents "Frozen In" to Plasma?

Unread post by jone dae » Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:28 pm

Gary Larsen is famous as a very funny cartoonist. I knew that, but didn't recognize that the cartoon was one of his. Thanks for that.
Jone Dae

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