On the Move - Curiosity rover on Mars, 7 Sep 2012

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jjohnson
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On the Move - Curiosity rover on Mars, 7 Sep 2012

Unread post by jjohnson » Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:08 pm

In the next to last paragraph, the TPOD noted that
Recently, NASA investigators announced that they have detected “non-thermal radiation” from the Martian surface. Since the energy readings were independent of the surface temperature, and occurred during one of the giant dust storms that sometimes rage through the southern plains, the assumption is that they are evidence for lightning discharges.
The link to that source shows that it is from a press release issued by the University of Michigan at Ann Arbor, MI,in June of 2009, regarding findings of observations measured by a microwave instrument on one of the two previous Mars Rovers.
The first direct evidence of lightning has been detected on Mars. Researchers from the University of Michigan found signs of electrical discharges during dust storms on the red planet using an innovative microwave detector . The bolts were dry lightning, said Professor Chris Ruf. “What we saw on Mars was a series of huge and sudden electrical discharges caused by a large dust storm. Clearly, there was no rain associated with the electrical discharges on Mars. However, the implied possibilities are exciting.
One shouldn't be too quick to agree that their interpretation - that the dust storm caused the lighting discharges - is correct, as it might have been the other way around, with twisting electromagnetic discharge conditions in Mars' this atmosphere picking up and ionizing surface and atmospheric particles to create the dust devils and sandstorm conditions that accomanied the discharges. Pictures of dust devils with bright, arc-light-looking tops have been posted on this Forum previously, those same dust devils that leave those beautifully stark, blackened trails criss-crossing and weaving erratic patterns in certain areas in the HiRise satellite photos.

While Mars does not have a strongly organized magnetic field and magnetosphere like many planets in our system, it still provides evidence of continuing small-scale electrical activity, and older, historic large-scale evidence of cosmically-scaled electrical discharges such as Calles Marinaris and Olympus Mons, and its smoothed northern hemisphere that is much lower than the rough terrain of the southern hemisphere. Without a significant atmosphere and no magnetosphere, it is subject to much more intense solar bombardment, both radiation and charged particles from the solar wind, than denser, magnetized planets with thick atmospheres elsewhere. It may be that the solar wind is a feeder circuit to Mars and possible the source of charge imbalances which occasion the lightning discharges.

I would suggest that electricity needs to become elevated to a more prominent position in the planetary geologists' bag of explanations for what they are seeing with the clear, fresh eyes of these clever robotic explorers.

Jim

Sparky
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Re: On the Move - Curiosity rover on Mars, 7 Sep 2012

Unread post by Sparky » Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:25 pm

Jim, do you know if NASA has been challenged to a public debate by an EU proponent?

Has anyone been invited to give a lecture on EU at TED?
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire

jjohnson
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Re: On the Move - Curiosity rover on Mars, 7 Sep 2012

Unread post by jjohnson » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:56 pm

Sparky: Sorry for the delay. The answer to your first question is "no", and to the second, "I don't know".

Don Scott was invited to give a talk to a group of NASA engineers/scientists, generally considered a success by EU proponents. He was well treated by a polite audience. I'm not sure that getting into a debate is as desirable as just being able to get into a discussion with these guys. As the EU hardly qualifies as a theory, yet, at least by the conventional definition of it, debating a non-theory versus an existing theory seems pointless. They would want to know, among other things, our reference sources and published papers in their peer-reviewed journals, which will not publish EU anything because it does not adhere to the standard model interpretation of how things work. It is also still woefully short in the quantitative or math-supported area, always an easy target to chip away at in a "theory" in the physical sciences.

I watch TED every week after I get my notice, but not for EU enlightenment. These are brief clips, 20 minutes or less, and it would be hard to wade in and get across a broad explanation of the EU ideas in that amount of time. Even with "pretty" slides, as soon as "plasma physics" slipped out of a talker's mouth, she's lost her audience.

The EU is needing a lot of work before it's ready to step into The Big TIme. As does its potential audience. Thunderbolts is working on a lot of things behind the curtain, making contacts, planning educational and informational moves suitable for an interested but fairly lay audience. The larger and better educated the audience, and the better they can be taught to use balanced, critical thinking, that the EU can get interested and involved in its ideas, as a counterpoint to the massive press release and education efforts by the main players, the more likely it will move forward and get traction in the scientific world. There is an awful lot of inertia in today's thinking, as most here have observed and commented on.

If it were easy, it'd have been done by the time you and I showed up, right?

Jim

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nick c
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Re: On the Move - Curiosity rover on Mars, 7 Sep 2012

Unread post by nick c » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:08 pm

jjohnson wrote:Don Scott was invited to give a talk to a group of NASA engineers/scientists, generally considered a success by EU proponents.
NASA Goddard presentation by Dr. Donald E. Scott.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8tqgntb ... 2EA70D493D

Sparky
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Re: On the Move - Curiosity rover on Mars, 7 Sep 2012

Unread post by Sparky » Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:46 am

Jim and Nick, thanks..... ;)
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire

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