It's actually easy to force people to be stupid.

Has science taken a wrong turn? If so, what corrections are needed? Chronicles of scientific misbehavior. The role of heretic-pioneers and forbidden questions in the sciences. Is peer review working? The perverse "consensus of leading scientists." Good public relations versus good science.

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Zyxzevn
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It's actually easy to force people to be stupid.

Unread post by Zyxzevn » Fri Feb 26, 2016 6:37 am

Related to the ARStechnica article:
It's actually easy to force people to be evil

Our science and education system is based on tutors ordering students what to do
and to tell them what is correct and what is wrong.

This system disables the open minded thinking that students naturally have, and
forces it into a structured limited thinking that follows a predetermined path.
This system disables the intelligence of the students and the scientists.
It disables critical thinking on a deep level.
That is exactly what we see in the article.
People start to see that what is trained as their reality.

After a lot of training in following orders and instructions, they even think
that their work and thinking is justified. Their intelligence is only trained to follow
the directions that have been trained. They will try to punish people that
say anything different.

They can not even tell that their trained ideas might be wrong on some level.
The open minded part of intelligence has been damaged by schooling and "science".

It is sad to say this, but in some way, school and science can make people stupid.
More ** from zyxzevn at: Paradigm change and C@

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Zyxzevn
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Re: It's actually easy to force people to be stupid.

Unread post by Zyxzevn » Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:26 am

Bonus video:
[Astroturf and manipulation of media messages (Sharyl Attkisson) TED

How we are manipulated in media (and science) and how this system starts on school.
More ** from zyxzevn at: Paradigm change and C@

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nick c
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Re: It's actually easy to force people to be stupid.

Unread post by nick c » Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:59 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bYAQ-ZZtEU
That video is a must see for all those interested in the EU, as many of those same manipulative techniques are used by EU critics.

Grey Cloud
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Re: It's actually easy to force people to be stupid.

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Fri Feb 26, 2016 3:20 pm

nick c wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bYAQ-ZZtEU
That video is a must see for all those interested in the EU, as many of those same manipulative techniques are used by EU critics.
I'll take Nick's endorsement and raise it. The subject of the video applies to every aspect of your life.
Trust nothing of what you hear and only half of what you see. ;)
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

Chan Rasjid
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Re: It's actually easy to force people to be stupid.

Unread post by Chan Rasjid » Sat Feb 27, 2016 4:30 am

Grey Cloud wrote:
nick c wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bYAQ-ZZtEU
That video is a must see for all those interested in the EU, as many of those same manipulative techniques are used by EU critics.
I'll take Nick's endorsement and raise it. The subject of the video applies to every aspect of your life.
Trust nothing of what you hear and only half of what you see. ;)
video:
"Sharyl Attkisson shows how astroturf, or fake grassroots movements funded by political, corporate, or other special interests very effectively manipulate and distort media messages."
This thread, as well as the subject of the video talk, is all about how to be wise. Or in everyday parlance, how to be smart. There is no rule of thumb on how to be wise.

There is something that I learn from experience - but only slowly through realization over the years:
We are all born different.
- and this is one of the greatest of mystery about the human being. Man is not just what most of us think he is - just his thinking mind, his heart, his opinions. The one single missing element that most people are unaware of is the soul. In Islam there is even an exhortation as if to say : "Don't ask too much about the soul".
The soul is what you do not yet know.
There is a belief in some spiritual community that the majority of human beings are asleep - in a waking sleep. Man in general do not know what they are doing. You ask any of the posters here, and they can come out with "my" argument why you are wrong. But if the "I" that is giving an answer is a soul asleep, it is not about any "garbage in, garbage out", but "garbage out and out". Rarely does words of wisdom come out of the mouth of one talking and asleep at the same time. So one should not be surprised that Wal Thornhill's gravity thread goes to 22 pages. The physics world is currently in a frenzied debate about the greatest discovery of all times - gravitational waves! But the majority of the people debating about gravitational waves don't know what they are talking about - neither do the LIGO experimentalists; the LIGO experimentalists don't know what they were doing nor do they understanding what conclusions they have concluded!
That which the hands wrought of one whose soul is stunted and asleep cannot have enduring significance.
Man in general live life following impulses leading their lives; most would be doing so from cradle to the graves -
except for those with great good fortune to be hit by "The Intervention".
The worldly impulse is like inertia of mass - it just goes on by itself and man is not even aware he is just being pushed on in life without really having much of free will to talk about. When one is not aware of the inertia of life dictating his ways, how could such be said to have free will. So there is not much free will happening in human society. That man in general do not have much free will applies regardless of a person's social status - it is the same for president Obama as it is for you and me - we only think and imagine we do have a choice to do what we do.

We cannot help being what we are as long as we are in a waking sleep - our souls being enthralled by the various influences running the world. So what seems to be our opinions may be just what influences we have been subjected to throughout our life without us really able to separate the "wheat from the chaff". It is difficult to tell the hypocrites from the sincere.

King James Version, Matthew 23 :
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,

7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
For a practical example, take what the Pope very recently suggested, that he likes to see all countries abolish the death sentence as capital punishment. He cites the law "Thou shall not kill"; he seems to be of the opinion that it should be very general for mankind. What is the implications? I'll leave you to think about it.

Best regards,
Chan Rasjid.

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Re: It's actually easy to force people to be stupid.

Unread post by Elder » Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:43 am

Hi Chan Rasjid, one has to agree with most of what you said, but how to get from sleepwalking to awake? I think most spiritual ways would say, 'it is only by disciplining oneself, that you can rise above the habits of ones life'. Before he died I think Mohammad said 'one has to do Jihad, not against other people but against oneself'. In Islam there is the Ramadan and in Christianity there is the Lent, which unfortunately not many people follow nowadays. Ramadan is followed quite diligently by a lot of Moslems, but it has been commercialized far too much. However, even doing these fasts in a small way will help bring us more wakefulness, and this is verified by modern doctors who say that fasting in moderation is good for the body and mind.
Even with fasting, it is not easy to get away from the dogmatic life styles of the 21st. century. The machines we have put in place to serve us, are now the masters. The machine I am using now to write this post has become the 'God' of the modern age. Without it people would be completely lost. Using it, is a habit that has been forced on us by modern technology. The computer takes away some of your free thinking ability, despite its apparent usefulness. Motorcars are another part of everyday life that has become a habit, and is taking away the desire for people to use their legs. Where would people be without a car or motorbike? Mobile phones are another obvious example of the way machinery has become a habit of our lives, and very difficult to counteract.All these different types of machine have become our masters and not our servants. Before long, robots will be teaching in classrooms and Universities, instead of human teachers and lecturers. The students will have even less human contact and interaction with ideas, than they did before.
It is only the young man within us that is able to use these machines, take them apart, put them together or cheerfully throw them away, that is able to live with them. Even the young man, has such a bewildering variety of machines to choose from, he is likely to end up very confused anyway. I think the only real answer at the moment is stick close to the God within, whether it is the Almighty in heaven, the Beetle sat in the garage or the roses growing in the front garden.

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Re: It's actually easy to force people to be stupid.

Unread post by seasmith » Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:06 pm

Bravo and Kudus to Sharyl Attkisson (via Zyxzevn, Nick C, etc) for exposing the devious machinations (and innate gullibility) of the naked ape, but heaven help us if the rest of it is the "Future of Science".

Perhaps some of these (very astute) philsophical ponderings on soul and spirit of homo-erectus would be more pertinent to, and more conducive for internet search functions in, the Human Question forum ?
Just a thought...

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Re: It's actually easy to force people to be stupid.

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Sun Feb 28, 2016 3:40 am

Seasmith - You beat me to the suggestion that this is a Human Question issue.

Chan -
The soul is what you do not yet know.
I disagree with you on this. The operative word there is 'yet'. To me it suggests that the 'soul' is knowable. Know thyself the kingdom of heaven is within - the greater jihad, etc. Religion = re-ligio = rebind or reunite.

Elder -
but how to get from sleepwalking to awake? I think most spiritual ways would say, 'it is only by disciplining oneself, that you can rise above the habits of ones life'.
You answered your own question there, surely? 'One eye for study and one eye for meditation' as the Buddha put it.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

Elder
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Re: It's actually easy to force people to be stupid.

Unread post by Elder » Sun Feb 28, 2016 5:51 am

I did answer the question. That was basically my intention. We are not supposed to talk about or discuss religious matters, but the first post was talking about people, students etc. going to sleep and not interacting or thinking for themselves. One answer to that problem is the self discipline suggested by most religions, which takes the form of self sacrifice. However, one does not have to be religious to do this. There are innumerable ways to discipline oneself or make self sacrifice. Only by doing this can one hope to be rid of habits or behaviour which put us to sleep.In the modern world this is often very difficult because our lives rely on many things which are regarded as essential. How do you 'not' use a computer or a handphone nowadays. These sort of things have a hold on us and tend to control what we think and the way we think. I am not suggesting it is all bad, but it is definitely something to be aware of. Our psychology is being affected by all these things and we still don't know the long term effects of them. Perhaps sleepwalking is one of them.

Grey Cloud
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Re: It's actually easy to force people to be stupid.

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Sun Feb 28, 2016 9:04 am

Elder,
However, one does not have to be religious to do this. There are innumerable ways to discipline oneself or make self sacrifice. Only by doing this can one hope to be rid of habits or behaviour which put us to sleep.In the modern world this is often very difficult because our lives rely on many things which are regarded as essential. How do you 'not' use a computer or a handphone nowadays.
Agreed.
Materialism is a major problem. This in part is caused by the things mentioned in the video - people believing when they are told they must have one of these or one of those.
Computers etc are just tools. The key is how one uses the tool. Most people don't use a computer - they use a grossly over-powered web-browser to get on Facile Book and Ebay.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

Webbman
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Re: It's actually easy to force people to be stupid.

Unread post by Webbman » Sat Mar 19, 2016 1:24 pm

It is my opinion that true wisdom is derived from pain and reflection upon it.

why people are dumb is simple. The system deprives them of failure and the pain that comes with that, and thus they never learn to overcome anything like good slaves. You see this more and more every day. all coddling, no fire.

The second part of this is that in this world, cunning (and the ability to lie effectively) is (secretly)prized over all other traits, and is falsely attributed to intelligence. A fox can be cunning, but has little intelligence. Intelligence is, in fact, the ability to not be an predator, to not take advantage of your fellow man. Its what is supposed to be what separates us from the animals.

So we have wisdom-less morons who are rewarded for their cunning against their fellow man/woman, ruled by the most cunning animals that have ever lived.

sounds like hell to me. we were warned. nobody listened.
its all lies.

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