Matter is made of only waves?

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pln2bz
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Re: Matter is made of only waves?

Unread post by pln2bz » Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:16 pm

2. Perhaps you could initiate a private conversation with Dave Smith and teammates as to the wisdom of starting a new Forum Section titled "Electric Universe--Philosopher's Corner." It seems to me that we should do everything in our power to contain discussion in the present electric universe threads to observation, measurements, and testable explanations. But in the end, philosophical perspectives will need a place to be aired.
My own vote would be for a forum category specifically dedicated to the particle-quantum-aether domain. And within this specific category, philosophical and metaphysical discourse would be permitted so long as it directly derives from issues related to particles, aether or quantum mechanics. This would also permit us to avoid labeling aether-related discourse as a "Mad Idea". As is, there is aether-related material embedded in virtually every single category here on this forum. It would be simpler for people to develop an education on the issue if it was all in one single place. This would also permit people who are new to the forum and the Electric Universe to easily identify that there exists no current consensus on aether. As is, that might not be immediately obvious.

I think that a Philosopher's Corner would probably languish because there are few times when philosophy actually starts a conversation. It usually comes up as a consequence of some other discussion, and in particular conversations related to the origins of matter and forces.

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Re: Matter is made of only waves?

Unread post by Plasmatic » Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:36 pm

My own vote would be for a forum category specifically dedicated to the particle-quantum-aether domain. And within this specific category, philosophical and metaphysical discourse would be permitted so long as it directly derives from issues related to particles, aether or quantum mechanics. This would also permit us to avoid labeling aether-related discourse as a "Mad Idea". As is, there is aether-related material embedded in virtually every single category here on this forum. It would be simpler for people to develop an education on the issue if it was all in one single place. This would also permit people who are new to the forum and the Electric Universe to easily identify that there exists no current consensus on aether. As is, that might not be immediately obvious.
I agree :o :D

there are few times when philosophy actually starts a conversation. It usually comes up as a consequence of some other discussion, and in particular conversations related to the origins of matter and forces.
This is because every person always and at all times applies thier own philosphy when they form concepts. The difference is the level of EXPLICIT awareness of ones own philosophy and the natural consequences of the concepts therein!! So in essence it does in fact "start" the conversation because it is ALWAYS IMPLICIT in every statement , no exclusions to this are possible.
"Logic is the art of non-contradictory identification"......" I am therefore Ill think"
Ayn Rand
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
Aristotle

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StefanR
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Re: Matter is made of only waves?

Unread post by StefanR » Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:07 pm

pln2bz wrote:My own vote would be for a forum category specifically dedicated to the particle-quantum-aether domain. And within this specific category, philosophical and metaphysical discourse would be permitted so long as it directly derives from issues related to particles, aether or quantum mechanics.
.....
Well said. That would be a good idea, in my view.
The illusion from which we are seeking to extricate ourselves is not that constituted by the realm of space and time, but that which comes from failing to know that realm from the standpoint of a higher vision. -L.H.

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webolife
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Re: Matter is made of only waves?

Unread post by webolife » Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:19 pm

For a teacher of math and science, I'm a fairly simple minded person, hopefully reasonable...
Since I think that light action is instantaneous across distance, it doesn't make sense to me to see "photons" as either particulate or wavish. So the idea of a photon as a "longitudinal wave" escapes me entirely. A "photon" as a field manifestation may have a globular geometric aspect, but it makes no sense to me to regard that as a "particle" property. I have described elsewhere the concept of a photon as an operational "vector" occupying a conical region of influence, the apex being at the centroid of the [roughly spherical] system and the base being at the periphery [receptor] [surface] of the sphere. The vector direction is centropic, ie toward the apex, contrary to any models that have light being emitted from the "source". The base of the photon/conic region has roughly a planck diameter. The "photon" is phenomenal, without reference to wavishness or particality, because it is a "quantum", if you please, of the unified force field local pressure gradient. Geometry of the system determines the order/magnitudes/measurements/quality of observation, etc., and how this relates to aetherometry and the electric universe is an ongoing challenge and enrichment to my understanding. :)
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.

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junglelord
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Re: Matter is made of only waves?

Unread post by junglelord » Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:44 pm

webolife wrote:For a teacher of math and science, I'm a fairly simple minded person, hopefully reasonable...
Since I think that light action is instantaneous across distance, it doesn't make sense to me to see "photons" as either particulate or wavish. So the idea of a photon as a "longitudinal wave" escapes me entirely. A "photon" as a field manifestation may have a globular geometric aspect, but it makes no sense to me to regard that as a "particle" property. I have described elsewhere the concept of a photon as an operational "vector" occupying a conical region of influence, the apex being at the centroid of the [roughly spherical] system and the base being at the periphery [receptor] [surface] of the sphere. The vector direction is centropic, ie toward the apex, contrary to any models that have light being emitted from the "source". The base of the photon/conic region has roughly a planck diameter. The "photon" is phenomenal, without reference to wavishness or particality, because it is a "quantum", if you please, of the unified force field local pressure gradient. Geometry of the system determines the order/magnitudes/measurements/quality of observation, etc., and how this relates to aetherometry and the electric universe is an ongoing challenge and enrichment to my understanding. :)
Sounds like Wilbert Smith so your not the only one, nor the first. I see that it deserves a proper evaluation as even my lost and recovered thread on the New Theory of Light was having lots of hits and good discussions.
http://thunderbolts.info/wp/forum/phpBB3/v ... f=10&t=217
Light needs to be reexamined and I think as well a Aether Section would be well served.
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
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Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
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Re: Matter is made of only waves?

Unread post by seasmith » Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:38 pm

~
Webolife wrote:
Reply to Blue Crab on Young's double-slit "interference" experiment:
Elsewhere [moderators, do you know where this is? I can't find it since the accidental demolition of the previous forum], I explained a model for so-called "interference" and "diffraction" in which we see these patterns as a light field pressure gradient.
Don't know where that post is, but here's a light-slit graphic that's as wave theory compatible as most:
Image
...scientists soon found that when electrons pass through a narrow opening they show 'diffraction' and 'interference' effects which were known to be exclusively wave phenomena. Thus, the particle-wave duality of matter was added to the wave-particle duality of light and modern physics declared the quadruplicity of Nature. The mathematical formalism that evolved from this hypothesis became the foundation of Quantum Mechanics.
...
In the all-pervading ideal gas of Aether all moving chunks or particles of matter create waves just like a fish or a boat in the water. When particles are driven through a narrow slit the reflecting Aether-waves destruct their straight line paths. This is the real kinematic cause of the diffraction of electrons.
http://www.aethro-kinematics.com/w8_mwaveX.html
~non-moderator

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junglelord
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Re: Matter is made of only waves?

Unread post by junglelord » Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:44 pm

Interesting but I am having trouble with point particles at present. Still seems like a valid supposition. I still think about the two particle model of light when we come back to a particle model.
http://lighttheory.com/light/
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
— Junglelord.
Knowledge is Structured in Consciouness. Structure and Function Cannot Be Seperated.
— Junglelord

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junglelord
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Re: Matter is made of only waves?

Unread post by junglelord » Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:49 pm

In my thread "The New Theory of Light" which was inspired from the link above, It was asked what are the two particles as the author of the theory, Victor M. Urbina, never stated in his model what those particles were, just that light was two particles of opposite charges. The work of Konstantin Meyl showed them to be the electron positron pair. The work of Urbina showed me in relationship what Meyl was thinking. I actually emailed this to him as we had a short correspondance several years ago when I found his web page in my constant studies on light.

So I find little pearls at many different places that all string together to make a better whole. In trying to understand why light has no mass I came across this when looking at AMP.
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Paper:A_Ne ... _Institute
Since the photon has the total mass equal to one electron, but the mass divides equally as matter and antimatter, the masses nullify each other gravitationally, therefore giving the appearance of a massless photon.

This would support the premis of Meyl about the electron actually being a combined pair matter/antimatter dual vortex opposites idea as well as Photons, but explained in a language I could better understand about why its massless in its geometric relationship as a Photon vs the geometric relatonship in the electron. Fundamentally if we are dealing with point particles I suspect that there are no monopoles and therefore all subatomic particles and or waves are in reality a dual and one must learn to understand that even time has a reverse time line component as well. Duals exist at all levels I guess.

Tesla made a statement about 3,6,9 and the power of those numbers. The Rodin Coil number pattern compared to what Tesla said and related to the Yin/Yang was interesting to me.
Image

The Dual Vortex Opposites work of Meyl added to this Dual Opposite sign and this agreement with APM is very interesting to me as Bruce Lee added two arrows around the Yin/Yang to explain his philosophy of Jeet Kune Do which just about satisfies me on many levels at this point in my life.
Image
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
— Junglelord.
Knowledge is Structured in Consciouness. Structure and Function Cannot Be Seperated.
— Junglelord

seasmith
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Re: Matter is made of only waves?

Unread post by seasmith » Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:42 pm

Junglelord wrote:
Interesting but I am having trouble with point particles at present.
Not endorsing the aethro-kinematics scheme, just plagarizing their graphic. What is represented as a point or particle, is always relative to the observer and therefore a quantum of EM 'light' energy, itself interacting with other quanta forming the slit.
All within the matrix of an aetheric substrate.
Science does currently need both the Point and Wave concepts to explore our EU.

Your very apt Yin Yang symbols are, i agree, most powerful illuminating archetypes.
:idea:
~

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bboyer
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Re: Matter is made of only waves?

Unread post by bboyer » Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:27 pm

seasmith wrote:<snip>What is represented as a point or particle, is always relative to the observer and therefore a quantum of EM 'light' energy, itself interacting with other quanta forming the slit.
<snip>~

A point often either overlooked, discounted, or willfully ignored, imo. And not just interactions with the slit but all other components and peripherals of the experimental apparatus. Not to mention the susceptibility of our own sense channels to observing and accepting illusion as reality as in this example given from the web site I'd referenced earlier.
illusory_square.jpg
illusory_square.jpg (2.4 KiB) Viewed 16366 times
Caption:The illusion above demonstrates how the mind can get fooled. I challenge anyone to look at it with without [sic] seeing a square. Perhaps a similar kind of illusion occurs with our imagining the trajectory of photons coupled with the classical existential description of light. http://www.nobeliefs.com/light.htm
There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's subtle body rest upon that and not rest on anything else. [---][/---] Maitri Upanishad

pln2bz
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Re: Matter is made of only waves?

Unread post by pln2bz » Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:08 pm

As a footnote to the yin-yang discussion, it has also been proposed that the figure may have originated from a Saturnian configuration. I don't know the strength of the evidence with regards to that however. Maybe somebody else can chime in on that real briefly ...

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Re: Matter is made of only waves?

Unread post by Forum Moderator » Sat Apr 12, 2008 6:28 pm

Let's try to get this thread back on the originator's topic of "Matter is made of only waves?". Discussion of specific models should probably best take place in either existing or newly made topics relevant to the specific models. Obviously, some reference to particular models may prove useful in supporting one viewpoint or another with regard to the wave theory of matter, but please don't let such overtake the overall subject at hand. We have just made a new topic on the Future of Science (FoS) board for the exclusive discussion of the APM; you'll find it here Aether Physics Model (APM). We have also made one for the &AElig;therometry model as well; it can be found here The Aetherometry Model. There will be some attempt to clean this particular thread up a bit to the degree it's possible without rendering it disjointed. So, please, let's focus future posts to this particular thread to the addressing the post's title.

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junglelord
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Re: Matter is made of only waves?

Unread post by junglelord » Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:19 pm

An important post I made seems to be gone down a black hole. I will say again I do not champion any one theory other then an Aether model in general. Its a starting place to leave the standard model of particles. To me the Aether is a wave model and that is the way I understand it, which is why the discussion of any wave model is good in this thread. I do not believe in the standard model or modern cosmology. I do think that we find many salient points of agreement amongst the different Aether Models that at least give us a chance to look at the wave model with some powerful concepts. I also believe that the Aether models are a more fitting model then the standard model to the EU and to Plasma Physics.
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
— Junglelord.
Knowledge is Structured in Consciouness. Structure and Function Cannot Be Seperated.
— Junglelord

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Re: Matter is made of only waves?

Unread post by Forum Moderator » Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:34 pm

junglelord wrote:An important post I made seems to be gone down a black hole....
Looks like you found it (HERE: The Aetherometry Model). Sorry for the inconvenience.

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junglelord
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Re: Matter is made of only waves?

Unread post by junglelord » Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:42 pm

No, my apology, I was going back to edit as I found it like you said. Nothing is lost and the link is as provided by the forum mod. Thanks Team, very good work, no inconvience and better division of topics. Lets us seperate the wheat from the chaff so to speak without mudding the water.
8-)
PS I often edit a response up to the full one hour time limit. Dsylex, Post Concussion Syndrome and all that stuff.
:?
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
— Junglelord.
Knowledge is Structured in Consciouness. Structure and Function Cannot Be Seperated.
— Junglelord

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