more effecient electrolysis

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Sparky
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more effecient electrolysis

Unread post by Sparky » Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:19 pm

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Thermodynamic Device (TD)
The TD is fabricated of metals and ceramic in the geometric form of a coaxial cylinder made up of a centered hollow tubular electrode which is surrounded by a larger tubular steel cylinder. These two electrodes comprise the coaxial electrode system energised by Component I. The space between the two electrodes is, properly speaking, Component III which contains the water solution to be electrolysed. The center hollow tubular electrode carries water into the cell, and is further separated from the outer cylindrical electrode by a porous ceramic vitreous material. The space between the two electrodes contains two lengths of tubular Pyrex glass, shown in Figures 2 and 3. The metal electrode surface in contact with the water solution are coated with a nickel alloy.
This is found at http://www.rexresearch.com/puharich/1puhar.htm#4394230
Dr Andrija Puharich received his patent ,4,394,230, 18 july 1983.

He did not promote his device!!!

The patent seems detailed enough to construct a device from!!!

I think these points are salient!!!


excerpts:
In the following sections we describe the new method of electrolysis by means of alternating current, and the exact method and means used to measure the endergonic process of Eq.(4) and the governing Eq.(2) and Eq.(5).
The resultant ration between current and voltage is dependent on many factors such as the gap distance between the center and ring electrodes, dielectric properties of the water, conductivity properties of the water, equilibrium states, isothermal conditions, materials used, and even the pressure of clathrates. The above current and voltage values reflect the net effect of various combinations of such parameters. When one takes the product of rms current, and rms volts, one has a measure of the power, P in watts.

P = I x E = 25 mA x 4.0 volts =100 mW (0.1 W)

and P = I x E =38 mA x 2.6 volts = 98.8 mW (0.0988 W)

At these power levels (with load), the resonant frequency of the system is 600 Hz (plus or minus 5 Hz) as measured on a precision frequency counter. The wave form was monitored for harmonic content on an oscilloscope, and the nuclear magnetic relaxation cycle was monitored on an XY plotting oscilloscope in order to maintain the proper hysteresis loop figure. All experiments were run so that the power in watts, applied through Components I, II, and III ranged between 98.8 mW to 100 mW.
Dr Andrija Puharich's bio.:http://www.puharich.nl/Bio/biography.htm

An unusual man, an unusual life!
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire

Sparky
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Re: more effecient electrolysis

Unread post by Sparky » Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:43 am

Dr Andrija Puharich reportedly drove his motor home for hundreds of thousands of miles around North America in the 1970s using only water as fuel. At a mountain pass in Mexico, he collected snow for water. Here is the only article he wrote on the subject, plus his patent:
Excerpts from article :
It is of interest to record that a new invention is now being developed to realise the above outlined goal of cheap, clean renewable and high grade energy.

A Thermodynamic Device has been invented which produces hydrogen as fuel, and oxygen as oxidant, from ordinary or from sea water, eliminating the cost and hazard of liquefaction, storage, transmission, and distribution. The saving of this aspect of the invention alone reduces the total cost of hydrogen by about 25%.

This Thermodynamic Device is based on a new discovery --- the efficient electrolytic fission of water into hydrogen gas and oxygen gas by the use of low frequency alternating currents as opposed to the conventual use of direct current, or ultra-high frequency current today. Such gas production from water by electrolytic fission approaches 100% efficiency under laboratory conditions and measurements. No laws of physics are violated in this process.

This Thermodynamic Device has already been tested at ambient pressures and temperatures from sea level to an altitude of 10,000 feet above sea level without any loss of its peak efficiency. The device produces two types of gas bubbles; one type of bubble contains hydrogen gas; the other type contains oxygen gas. The two gases are thereafter easily separable by passive membrane filters to yield pure hydrogen gas, and pure oxygen gas.

The separate gases are now ready to be combined in a chemical fusion with a small activation energy such as that from a catalyst or an electrical spark, and yield energy in the form of heat, or steam, or electricity --- as needed .
ENGINE EFFICIENCY. By a combination of the breakthroughs outlined above, (1), (2), and (3) utilized in a highly efficient engine to do work, it is possible to achieve a 15% to 20% surplus of energy return over energy input, theoretically.
-The fuel hydrogen, and the oxidant oxygen, can be used in any form of heat engine as an energy source if economy is not an important factor. But the practical considerations of maximum efficiency dictate that a low temperature fuel cell with its direct chemical fusion conversion from gases to electricity offers the greatest economy and efficiency from small power plants (less than 5 kilowatts).
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire

Sparky
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Re: more effecient electrolysis

Unread post by Sparky » Sat Mar 05, 2011 3:02 pm

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Image
In water the 1s electrons from two hydrogens bond with the 2py and 2pz electrons of oxygen. Since p orbitals lie at right angles to each other (see FIG. 4A), a bond angle of 90° might be expected. However, the bond angle is found experimentally to be approximately 104°. Theoretically this is explained by the effect of lone pair electrons on hybridized orbitals.

Combined or hybrid orbitals are formed when the excitement of 2s electrons results in their promotion from the ground state to a state energetically equivalent to the 2p orbitals. The new hybrids are termed sp3 from the combination of one s and three p orbitals (See FIG. 4B). Hybrid sp3 orbitals are directed in space from the center of a regular tetrahedron toward the four corners. If the orbitals are equivalent the bond angle will be 109°28' (See Fig. 15) consistent with the geometry of a tetrahedron. In the case of water two of the orbitals are occupied by non-bonding electrons (See FIG. 4C). There is greater repulsion of these lone pair electrons which orbit only one nucleus, compared to the repulsion of electrons in bonding orbitals which orbit two nuclei. This tends to increase the angle between non-bonding orbitals so that it is greater than 109°, which pushes the bonding orbitals together, reducing the bond angle to 104°. In the case of ammonia, NH3 where there is only one lone pair, the repulsion is not so great and the bond angle is 107°. Carbon forms typical tetrahedral forms and components the simplest being the gas methane, CH4 (See FIGS. 4C and 8). The repulsion of lone pair electrons affects charge distribution and contributes to the polarity of a covalent bond. (See FIG. 16)

As demonstrated in succeeding sections of this patent specification, a significant and novel aspect of this invention is the manipulation, by electronic methods and means, of the energy level of the water molecule, and the transformation of the water molecule into, and out of, the geometrical form of the tetrahedron. This is made possible only by certain subtle dynamic interactions among the Components I, II, and III of the present invention.
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire

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GaryN
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Re: more effecient electrolysis

Unread post by GaryN » Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:10 pm

Dan Nocera tells us the future isn't too bad, energywise. Sunlight and water.
A 20 minute lecture.
http://www.forbiddenknowledgetv.com/vid ... t-bad.html
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller

Sparky
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Re: more effecient electrolysis

Unread post by Sparky » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:41 am

Thanks, but i still don't do vids.....Dan Nocera, a prophet ?!


excerpt:
From the foregoing disclosure it will be appreciated that the achievement of efficient water splitting through the application of complex electrical waveforms to energized water molecules, i.e. tetrahedral molecules having bonding angles of 109°28', in the special apparatus described and illustrated, will provide ample and economical production of hydrogen gas and oxygen gas from readily available sources of water.
Could someone please look over the chemistry and math contained within the patent and see if it appears to be correctly applied and is complete?

thanks
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire

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MrAmsterdam
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Re: more effecient electrolysis

Unread post by MrAmsterdam » Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:52 pm

Thats interesting Sparky, those polyhedra.

I see electric resonance and standing waves ;-)
At these power levels (with load), the resonant frequency of the system is 600 Hz (plus or minus 5 Hz) as measured on a precision frequency counter. The wave form was monitored for harmonic content on an oscilloscope, and the nuclear magnetic relaxation cycle was monitored on an XY plotting oscilloscope in order to maintain the proper hysteresis loop figure. All experiments were run so that the power in watts, applied through Components I, II, and III ranged between 98.8 mW to 100 mW.
Why don't you listen to an interview with Bob Boyce, a technician with a lot of experience in electrolysis (of the exotic sort ;-) ) He even explains the basic principles of his discoveries...
Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality. -Nikola Tesla -1934

Sparky
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Re: more effecient electrolysis

Unread post by Sparky » Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:19 pm

thanks, i may...have so many other things that i have lined up it may be awhile....
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire

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ColdCowboy
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Re: more effecient electrolysis

Unread post by ColdCowboy » Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:36 pm

I take it this invention could/should be applied to the 'miracle' car-conversion devices.

Sparky
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Re: more effecient electrolysis

Unread post by Sparky » Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:28 am

IF it works as claimed, it could be used for any application that could use H O fuel; cook stove, house heat, refrigeration, electricity production, welding, vehicles, etc...and it would be locally produced as needed.

from what i have seen H O brown gas production requires tinkering to make it work...i suspect this did too....development of control circuits is needed to make it almost fool proof and convenient. but i don't see that happening anytime soon, even with oil at $110/brl.
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire

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Oracle_911
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Re: more effecient electrolysis

Unread post by Oracle_911 » Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:40 pm

So my parquet is environmental chemistry-heavy metals and other pollutants, BUT i got a bit educated in electro-chemistry and physical chemistry.

So i can tell the numbers are legit for me - but some units are wrong for example: 25 mA x 4.0 volts - more accurate is 25*10^-3 Ax 4.0V-but its more or less cosmeticall problem.
Other thing is allmost every measurement in electro-chemistry is made by DC or high frequency sinusoid AC/pulsating current, not by saw shaped currents .

In other words i must make this invention and make my measurements, before i can tell anything.
Standpoint of "scientists": If reality doesn`t match with my theory, than reality has a problem.

Sorry for bad English and aggressive tone, i`m not native speaker.

PS: I`m a chemist.

Sparky
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Re: more effecient electrolysis

Unread post by Sparky » Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:17 pm

Oracle_911 wrote:So my parquet is environmental chemistry-heavy metals and other pollutants, BUT i got a bit educated in electro-chemistry and physical chemistry.

So i can tell the numbers are legit for me - but some units are wrong for example: 25 mA x 4.0 volts - more accurate is 25*10^-3 Ax 4.0V-but its more or less cosmeticall problem.
Other thing is allmost every measurement in electro-chemistry is made by DC or high frequency sinusoid AC/pulsating current, not by saw shaped currents .

In other words i must make this invention and make my measurements, before i can tell anything.


Do you think you could test this reconfiguration of the water molecule without the special container? Is there enough information in the patent to set up an experiment?

Thanks
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire

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Oracle_911
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Re: more effecient electrolysis

Unread post by Oracle_911 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:58 am

Its not about i don´t want, its about currently i cant.
Standpoint of "scientists": If reality doesn`t match with my theory, than reality has a problem.

Sorry for bad English and aggressive tone, i`m not native speaker.

PS: I`m a chemist.

Sparky
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Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:20 pm

Re: more effecient electrolysis

Unread post by Sparky » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:13 am

Oracle_911 wrote:Its not about i don´t want, its about currently i cant.

I understand and thank you for your input...

I should have said, "Do you think a test of this "reconfiguration of the water molecule", without the special container is possible?

Do you think there Is there enough information in the patent to set up a a simple experiment to determine that?

thanks...
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire

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D_Archer
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Re: more effecient electrolysis

Unread post by D_Archer » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:57 am

Jules Verne: "Yes, my friends, I believe that water will one day be employed as fuel, that hydrogen and oxygen which constitute it, used singly or together, will furnish an inexhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which coal is not capable"

Regards,
Daniel
- Shoot Forth Thunder -

Sparky
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Re: more effecient electrolysis

Unread post by Sparky » Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:28 pm

Here is another device

Image
The AquaFuel process obtains COH2 from water and consumes the carbon/graphite electrodes. Apart from being a clean burning fuel, Aquafuel has been tested & confirmed to require less energy to release the gas than as predicted by Faraday's Law of electrolysis, which states that one equivalent weight of a substance is produced at each electrode during the passage of 96,487 coulombs of charge through an electrolytic cell. The underlying "inexplicable laws" are based on element transmutations which take place at the molecular level between carbon, oxygen nuclei and hydrogen ones.
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire

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