Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:13 am Post subject:
OP "Discipline"
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I doubt you often work with amplifiers containing hundreds of trillions of interlaced circuits.
True, I don’t. But even if I did would it matter? They would all speak to each other by frequencies and voltages that were induced externally, not because they are alive but because their system is designed to do so by a given input.
Ok. Then again, when we're talking about an amplifier, we're talking about a limited circuit that is designed to do a particular function. What does the universe do?
From an EU point of view the universe creates charge separations and induces flux that causes other electrical reactions. The function of that is to act and react. I fail to see how this is not different than what is induced in a plasma lab. One is at a different scale but both are controlled by inputs and outputs. The universe is far vaster but the systems can still be boiled down to different scales.
Your argument, from what I gather, is that a human designed amplifier is by default an artificial product that is created for a specific result (this is true). If that cannot be applied to the universe then the universe fails to be a designed system. Yet there are space objects that tend to act like man made devices, such as stars acting like PNP transistors or planet atmospheres acting like capacitors. There are similarities but the design is not of intelligence just be the order of electrical nature.
Of course this might not be what you are suggesting.
Well, even the presence of gravity (cohesion) in the system does make the idea a scientific possibility, but more than gravity alone would be required to sustain an aware life form. Physically stable "structures" and "current flows" are also necessary to sustain life and awareness as we understand it.
True, but gravity plays a part in the structure of life as well. The pull of the moon, the deflection of cosmic rays by the atmosphere, the magnetic field, the structure of hydrogen bonding, and thousands of other characteristics lead to the ideal case for life. In deep space not every place you look will shelter such characteristics even with electrical effects.
I favor plasma cosmology theory/ EU theory because it requires no faith in anything 'metaphysical'. EU theory however does make some "assumptions" about the universe, just like any other theory.
I agree, but assumptions have to be backed by at least observations.
(strong) Atheists tend to make "assumptions" about the makeup of the universe and even weak atheists sometimes hold "opinions" that they can't justify with empirical evidence.
Yes, everyone has opinions and much of their opinions are unjustified by empirical evidence and some opinions are justified by experience.
So where do we draw the line? To me it does not matter as long as what is necessary for progress transpires.
Those plasma filaments are nearly perfect conductors of electricity and their arrangement looks remarkably similar to structures that exist in life forms here on earth. Why? Why should I "assume" that the universe is not also a life form? Don't life forms come in various sizes here on earth?
The correlation of plasma filaments and neuron interlaces does not give a solid hypothesis that they are both life forms. If they do then would plasma filaments have to be a part of a bigger life form because neurons are a specific piece of a multi-organized animal? That could be the case but it would have to come with much scrutiny because the critical observations of such a case would be lacking. Neurons are observed in multi-celled organisms with much detail and study. Plasma filaments might resemble them, just like craters resemble impacts, but you have to look at it from different perspectives and then test, observe, and debate.
Plasma is made up of many various elements. However their combinations are different, their molecule structures are different. Plasma is fluid and their atoms are partially ionized making certain chemical reactions impossible. Neurons tend to be lightly ionized to conduct their electrical effects and are based off of organic compounds. Neurotransmitters such as acetylcholine are organic molecules that are seen in living matter and plasma is not shown to produce such molecules. Acetylcholine connects with sodium membranes to create sodium ions and thus create a current. There is no such chemical reaction of such type in plasma, just flowing ions and electrons which produce voltage differences.
Similar yes, but foundational structure is different and with diverse affects when dealing with other electrical traits.
Obviously in your case, your personal opinions on the topic of God have absolutely no influence on your interest in EU theory. Atheism is clearly not problematic for you personally as it relates to the science of astronomy. Everyone is an individual.
Yes, atheism is not problematic for me since it is my choice.
I am engaging you in banter. This is no different than the subject of evolution that many argue is religious but in truth can be boiled down to individuals of all belief systems who wish to make their solid cases but are subjected to side notes on religion or lack of religion.
But I'm not "judging" you personally. I simply mused over the possibility that some astronomers might be influenced by their personal biases.
I am aware you are not judging me. I am just chit chatting about how I think atheism is not the issue. I think it is educational dogma that is the issue. Things that are cast down as absolutes via generations lead to a stubborn lack of intrigue into what might lead to some interesting conclusions.
Theism in it's purest sense should be resisted? Why?
I miswrote what I meant to say. I apologize for that. I meant to say that religion should not be resisted or restricted. I have personal reasons for my lack of “faith”. I can, however, understand why religion or spirituality is important to most.
I know see why electricity sustains life either, but somehow it does.
True.
I think we both would agree that anything "metaphysical" should be avoided (like inflation and dark things) , but I'm not proposing anything "metaphysical" unless you consider awareness to be "metaphysical".
I agree on what you mean by metaphysics. But I cannot equate something to be aware if there are no signs of such a thing even if it flows electrically.
Awareness does exist and it is observable on a daily basis. Dark matter and black holes are not observed just theorized and then used to explain given space anomalies, hence why I am opened to alternative science.
So we can break this down to, religion does not matter in the investigation of EU. Now let's go discover!
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Last edited by Discipline on Sun Aug 26, 2007 2:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
