Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light? If you have a personal favorite theory, that is in someway related to the Electric Universe, this is where it can be posted.
Lloyd
Posts: 5416
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:22 am

16394

ARCTIC FLASH FREEZE OR NOT?
(Continued from
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... =300#p3075
and
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... =300#p3068 )

Walter Brown thought the mammoths etc were killed at the end of the Great Flood by a sudden severe freeze due to Asia and North America moving into the Arctic Circle via rapid continental drift (a bit similar to Mike Fischer's model). But Michael Oard figured the animals lived after the Flood and were killed a few centuries later when the Arctic climate cooled. Following are some of Oard's main arguments against Brown's model.

Were woolly mammoths quick-frozen in Siberia?
https://creation.com/the-extinction-of- ... ick-freeze
_The existence of carcasses with identifiable stomach remains and well-preserved bones and tusks has suggested a ‘quick-freeze’ to many. This has been reinforced by the research of the Birds Eye Frozen Foods Company, which calculated a sudden fall to below -100°C based on heat conduction.103
_Creationist quick-freeze advocates32,69 postulate that the quick-freeze was directly related to the Flood. However, as previously discussed in the section ‘Did Siberian mammoths die in the Flood?’ the evidence is strong that the Siberian mammoths are buried in post-Flood sediments associated with the ice age. All the arguments presented in that section, such as the mammoths of Beringia being part of one Northern Hemisphere ice age fauna, would apply against the quick-freeze hypothesis.
_There are other arguments against the quick-freeze hypothesis.
1. The number of frozen carcasses, in spite of under-reporting, is very small compared to the number of mammoth bones that underwent normal decay and are entombed in the permafrost.104,105
2. The carcasses are often partially decayed with fly pupae and display signs of scavenging,3,79,106,107 not expected during a quick-freeze.
3. The unique condition of several of the carcasses, such as the famished condition of Dima and the headless Selerikhan horse (Figure 5),3,83 indicate some time elapsed before final burial.
4. For some of the carcasses, death appears to have occurred at different times of the year.83,108 A quick-freeze during the Flood, especially as advocated by some creationists, would have occurred in a single instant.
5. The characteristics of the permafrost that entombs the carcasses and bones, show that it was not dumped quickly from above. It is doubtful that ice wedges would form during a quick drop of ice or hail from above.
_How are the stomach contents explained? The fact that the stomach contents were only partially decayed can be explained satisfactorily by understanding the digestive physiology of the elephant, which was little known until the 1970s.109 From studying 50 freshly killed elephants, it was discovered that the main digestive process of elephants does not occur in the stomach, but after the food passes the stomach, especially in the caecum and colon.109,110
_ I believe the secret to their demise and burial can be found in the type of sediment surrounding the woolly mammoths.
_According to those who have studied these deposits, the vast majority of the animals are found in the ‘yedomas’ of Siberia22 and the ‘muck’ of Alaska. The yedomas, a Yukut term, are hills 10–20 m, sometimes up to 60 m, high, containing a large percentage of ground ice.119,120 The hills formed after a period of post-ice-age surficial permafrost melting. Muck is the name given by gold miners to the organic-rich material deposited above gold-bearing gravels in Alaska and the Yukon Territory.121 Vereshchagin122 states that the yedomas contain a great abundance of mammal bones:
_‘The great abundance of bones of large herbivores in the Yedoma is convincing evidence of the rich pasturage offered by this region during the Pleistocene ….’
_What type of sediment makes up the yedomas and muck? There has been much controversy and a number of hypotheses on the origin of this sediment. There is now general agreement that the yedomas and muck are loess—a wind-blown silt!121,123–127 Much data support the wind-blown origin of this sediment. The loess is also rich in ground ice and ice wedges. The ground ice formed by a segregation process in which layers and lenses of ice, sometimes clear and sometimes inter-mixed with sediment, developed within the silt.128–130 The loess is not thousands of feet deep in Siberia and Alaska, as some have thought, but is a relatively thin veneer that is widespread in Beringia.123,125,131,132 Some of the loess, especially in Alaska, has been reworked by downslope mass flow. Redeposition of the loess has broken and twisted the vegetation and disarticulated mammal bones, and this has inspired Velikovsky and others to suggest exotic catastrophes.
_In the post-Flood ice age model, strong wind would have characterised the big chill and dessication during deglaciation.133 In a dry environment, this wind would have picked up and transported large quantities of silt and sand. Abundant wind-blown material is observed as relic features of the ice age in the Northern Hemisphere. Copious wind-blown dust even occurs in the ice age portion of the Greenland and Antarctica ice cores. It is known that mammoths and other mammals are entombed in loess in other areas.122,134–136 Thus, it seems likely that the mammoths in Beringia were mostly killed and buried by dust storms. ... It is possible that dust storms at the end of the ice age would be so intense that they could cover and suffocate a woolly mammoth trying to survive the storm.


TWO INSTANCES OF FLASH FREEZING FROM BROWN

After quoting Brown on these two possible instances, I'll discuss this issue some more below.

What Happened?
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebo ... oths6.html
_Two strange, but admittedly secondary, reports may relate to the frozen mammoth problem. Each is so surprising that one might dismiss it as a mistake or hoax, just as with any single report of a frozen mammoth. However, because both reports are so similar yet originated from such different sources, it is probably best to reserve judgment. Each report was accepted as credible and published by a scientific authority. Each involved the sudden freezing of a river in apparent defiance of the way bodies of water freeze. Each contained frozen animals in transparent ice, yet natural ice is rarely transparent. Each discovery was in a cold remote part of the world. One was in the heart of Siberia's frozen mammoth country.
_The brief reports will be given exactly as they were written and translated. The first was published by the former Soviet Academy of Sciences, Alexander Solzhenitsyn, winner of the Nobel Prize for Literature in 1970, recalled this report (as best he could remember it) in the first paragraph of his preface to The Gulag Archipelago. Unfortunately, Solzhenitsyn did not give the report's date, so I began a difficult search. The report was finally found in Moscow's Lenin State Library.
_Y.N. Popov, author of this report, was discussing the scientific importance of finding mammals frozen in Siberia. He then described some frozen fish:
__Figure 164: Fish Frozen in Underground Ice.
__There are some cases of finds of not only dead mammals, but also fishes, unfortunately lost for science. In 1942, during road construction in the Liglikhtakha River valley (the Kolyma Basin) and explosion opened a subterranean lens of transparent ice encasing frozen specimens of some big fishes. Apparently the explosion opened an ancient river channel with representatives of the ancient ichthyological fauna [fish]. The superintendent of construction reported the fishes to be of amazing freshness, and the chunks of meat thrown out by the explosion were eaten by those present.120
__Figure 165: Frozen Oxen Found in Tibet in 1846.
_The second report comes from M. Huc, a missionary traveler in Tibet in 1846. Sir Charles Lyell, often called the "father of geology", also quoted this same story in the 11th edition of his Principles of Geology. After many of Huc's party had frozen to death, survivors pitched their tents on the banks of the Mouroui-Oussou (which feeds into the famous Blue River [Yangtze River?]). Huc reported:
__At the moment of crossing the Mouroui-Oussou, a singular spectacle presented itself. While yet in our encampment, we had observed at a distance some black shapeless objects ranged in file across the great river. No change either in form or distinctness was apparent as we advanced, nor was it till they were quite close that we recognized in them a troop of wild oxen. There were more than fifty of them encrusted in the ice. No doubt they had tried to swim across at the moment of congelation [freezing], and had been unable to disengage themselves. Their beautiful heads, surmounted by huge horns, were still above the surface; but their bodies were held fast in the ice, which was so transparent that the position of the imprudent beasts was easily distinguishable; they looked as if still swimming, but the eagles and ravens had pecked out their eyes.123
_Any explanation for these strange discoveries must recognize that streams freeze from the top down.124 The ice formed floats and then insulates the warmer liquid water below. The thicker the ice grows, the harder it is for the liquid's heat to pass up through the ice layer and into the cold air. Freezing a stream fast enough to trap more than fifty upright oxen in the act of swimming across seems impossible, expecially because a stream's velocity varies across its width. Therefore, different parts of the stream should freeze over many days or hours. Freezing a river so fast that large fish are frozen, edible, and underground, defies belief. However, the similarities with the frozen mammoths are so great that these reports may be related. An explanation will follow shortly.


COMMENTS: UNBURST CELLS ETC
_I think Brown initially mentioned one item of evidence of flash freezing was unburst cells in one or more frozen mammoths or mammals, which the frozen food expert said indicated that it froze at -175F, so Brown figured super-cooled water and dust came down from the upper atmosphere and froze the animals rapidly. I don't think Oard has addressed that issue as yet, i.e. the unburst cells.
_Oard figured that the Arctic was warm for a few hundred years after the Flood, but he hasn't explained how the animals and plants lived there during the winters when it should have been dark for 6 months a year. Unless he supposed that the animals migrated each spring and fall. But I don't know where he thinks they would have migrated to and found enough food. The Saturn Model explains that Saturn (plus Venus and Mars) above the North Pole provided the light and warmth during the winters.
_The instances of flash-frozen streams with animals swimming in them do indicate the possibility of flash freezing of the Arctic (which the Saturn Model may attribute to Saturn flaring up) but, since Tibet is at 32 degrees north latitude, it seems less likely that the super-cooling would have reached that far south. Maybe the cattle froze there in more recent times due to predators or something. Another point is that the frozen streams should not have been real transparent if they froze rapidly due to super-cold dust or hail from Saturn, because the dust or hail should be within the frozen streams, reducing transparency.

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:52 pm

16768

SATURN HEAT & COLD BLASTS

_I'm still trying to determine if it's likely that air temperatures in the Arctic reached -150 F or colder when mammoths froze there, because it should tell us if there was possibly a cold blast from Saturn. I guess the heat blast is more certain.
_Ivan Sanderson apparently first claimed in 1960 or so that unburst cells in mammoth flesh proved that the temperature had to rapidly reach at least -150, because the cells would have burst if they had frozen at a normal rate to normal freezing temperatures.
_I found 4 relevant excerpts from different sources when searching for UNBURST at Catastrophism.com which I posted at https://futureschool.boards.net/post/141/thread
_One is "The Problem Of The Extinction" ... From: The Velikovskian Vol 3 No 2&3 (1997) ... [by] Charles Ginenthal
_Here's an excerpt.
Fred Hoyle who cogently remarked: "We are indebted to Dr. Clark Friend for informing us that reindeer which fall nowadays down crevasses in the Greenland ice are subsequently found to be in an unpleasantly putrefied condition. The situation is that, no matter how cold the air temperature surrounding the carcass of the reindeer, the body heat of the dead animal is sufficient to promote bacterial decomposition of the interior. Yet in spite of the greater body weight of the Siberian mammoths, and of the consequent greater heat capacity of the mammoth, putrefaction did not take place within them. This is certain proof that the mammoths were robbed of their body heat at an extremely rapid rate, much quicker than conduction in [present day temperatures of] cold air will give."24 That is, given the same conditions Cohen presented, it was found that animals freezing in crevasses putrefy. What is required is extremely cold temperatures to freeze dry an animal. Jody Dillow pointed out: "An analysis is presented by the temperature drop necessary at the time of its death to leave the mammoth in the state of preservation in which it was found. By using thermodynamic models of the mammoth, it is demonstrated that the animal must have frozen to death in mid-summer by being suddenly overcome by an outside temperature below –150o F."25 Although small animals such as seals found far inland in Antarctica were frozen and preserved at higher temperatures, this does not apply to large mammoths. Larger animals require colder temperature to prevent putrefaction than smaller ones. A small mass is easier to freeze dry than a large mass. Also, Antarctica gets much colder than Greenland [generally well below -15 F].
_That's a bit vague, so I hope to dig deeper and find solid info.
_I read Michael Oard's take on the frozen mammoths lately (see my previous post) and he seems to doubt the extreme low temperatures that are claimed, but I think he may not have looked into the situation thoroughly enough.
_I'll need to check Cardona's books more thoroughly too.

Lloyd
Posts: 5416
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:07 pm

16896

MORE ON SATURN'S COLD BLAST

FLASH FREEZING -- Wikipedia
_Flash freezing is used in the food industry to quickly freeze perishable food items (see frozen food). In this case, food items are subjected to temperatures well below [clarification needed] water's melting/freezing point. Thus, smaller ice crystals are formed, causing less damage to cell membranes.[6]
_Flash freezing techniques are used to freeze biological samples quickly so that large ice crystals cannot form and damage the sample.[7] This rapid freezing is done by submerging the sample in liquid nitrogen or a mixture of dry ice and ethanol.[8]
_American inventor Clarence Birdseye developed the "quick-freezing" process of food preservation in the 20th century.[9] This process was further developed by American inventor Daniel Tippmann[10] by producing a vacuum and drawing the cold through palletized food.

FLASH FREEZING NOT REQUIRED
Catastrophism and the Mammoths - II (Vox Populi) [Kronos]
_From: Kronos Vol. XI No. 2 (Winter 1986)
_Both Ellenberger and Cardona have quoted Sanderson's opinion that only sudden freezing can explain the "unburst" condition of certain cells in frozen mammoth cadavers. The implication here is that damage to cells necessarily results when a body is frozen slowly, the disruption being caused by the formation of ice crystals within the cells. However, such intracellular ice formation may be minimised not only by rapid freezing but also by the extra-cellular crystallisation of ice and by the dehydration which, as we have seen, accompanies slow freezing. Thus, mouse embryos have been shown to be able to survive slow freezing in a viable condition; and when irreversible damage did occur, it was a consequence of too rapid re-warming rather than the initial cooling mechanism.(56)

Frozen in Time, by Michael Oard
https://answersingenesis.org/answers/bo ... n-in-time/
CHAPTER 15: Were Siberian Mammoths Quick Frozen?
Table 15.2: Summary of the evidence against a quick freeze
1) Mammals associated with the Ice Age
2) Carcasses rare
3) Carcasses partially decayed
4) Fly pupae associated with bones and carcasses
5) Signs of scavenging
6) Different seasons of death
7) Remains mostly woolly mammoths

REMAINING EVIDENCE FOR FLASH FREEZING
_So it looks like there isn't a lot of evidence for flash freezing during the Younger Dryas event. The best evidence seems to be the permafrost that's almost a mile deep in central Siberia, which is composed of frozen muck. The Earth's natural heat should not allow freezing to such a great depth. The muck contains a lot of plant and animal parts that have been broken and splintered into pieces, as I understand it. I'll see if Cardona's books have more to say about that. Another evidence was the frozen stream in Russia with fish frozen in it at mid-level. That's not hard evidence unless we can find the actual stream and get data.

HUMANS HUNTED MAMMOTHS?
[COMMENT: Again likely about 4,000 years ago and the scars could be from natural catastrophe, instead of hunters.]
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/01 ... -years-ago
In August of 2012, an 11-year-old boy ... coast of Yenisei Bay, ... came upon the leg bones of a woolly mammoth eroding out of frozen sediments. Scientists excavating the well-preserved creature determined that it had been killed by humans: Its eye sockets, ribs, and jaw had been battered, apparently by spears, and one spear-point had left a dent in its cheekbone — perhaps a missed blow aimed at the base of its trunk. ... The mammoth died 45,000 years ago.

LIFE BELOW FREEZING
[COMMENT: This is just some interesting info I came across.]
Earth's Ancient Life Forms Are Awakening After 40,000 Years in Permafrost
[COMMENT: Dating methods are fairly unreliable; it's more likely about 4,000 years.]
https://www.sciencealert.com/ancient-pl ... y-slumbers
8 JULY 2019
_Researchers in a warming Arctic are discovering organisms, frozen and presumed dead for millennia, that can bear life anew. These ice age zombies range from simple bacteria to multicellular animals, and their endurance is prompting scientists to revise their understanding of what it means to survive.
_It's not easy to survive being frozen solid. Jagged ice crystals can shred cell membranes and other vital biological machinery.
_Mosses have forged a tougher path. They desiccate when temperatures plummet, sidestepping the potential hazard of ice forming in their tissues.
_Convey's team announced it had awakened a 1,500-year-old moss buried more than three feet underground in the Antarctic permafrost.
_While the elderly mosses discovered by La Farge and Convey are remarkable, the clique of ice age survivors extends well beyond this one group of plants.
_As usual, the researchers were seeking singled-celled organisms, the only life-forms thought to be viable after millennia locked in the permafrost. They placed the frozen material on petri dishes in their room-temperature lab and noticed something strange. Hulking among the puny bacteria and amoebae were long, segmented worms complete with a head at one end and anus at the other - nematodes.
_She estimated one nematode to be 41,000 years old - by far the oldest living animal ever discovered.
_This article was originally published by The Washington Post.

The Arctic ground squirrel can survive even if its body temperature drops below the freezing point of water
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160308 ... ing-frozen
11 March 2016
“The Arctic ground squirrel can survive body temperatures to -3C, but they do not freeze”, he explains. “Instead body fluids within the arctic ground squirrel enter a ‘supercooled’ state”.

Lloyd
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Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sat Sep 26, 2020 9:39 pm

17288

TIME FOR A RECAP
(Trying to incorporate recent findings into my scheme of Earth History.)

EARTH HISTORY
1. PREHISTORY ?-4,500 BP;
2. GREAT FLOOD 4,500 BP;
3. GOLDEN AGE 4,500-4,250 BP;
4. YOUNGER DRYAS EVENT; 4,250 BP;
5. CIVILIZATION 4,250 - 0 BP
[COMMENT: That part hasn't changed much.]

DETAILS
1. PREHISTORY ?-4,500 BP
a. Saturn System Origin with Weak Gravity Due to Tidal Forces (from Tiahuanaco discussion)
b. Earth Origin
c. Supercontinent Origin
d. Pre-Flood Biosphere History: Age of Megafauna, Megaflora & Giant Insects
[COMMENT: I didn't think of Earth's former weaker gravity being due to tidal forces from the Saturn System until my recent discussion of Tiahuanaco.]

2. GREAT FLOOD 4,500 BP
a. Saturn Flare Ejected Debris
b. Meteor Bombardment Formed Geological Basins
c. Close-elliptically-orbiting Small Moon Caused Monthly Tidal Waves
d. Six Monthly Tidal Waves Formed Six Sedimentary Rock Megasequences
e. Mid-flood Saturn Flare Deposited Debris & Thinned Atmosphere
f. Late-flood Asteroid Impact Shattered Supercontinent
g. Rapid Continental Drift Separated Continents, Produced Widespread Volcanism & Formed Mountain Chains & Radioactive Crustal Elements
h. Antarctic Ice Age Began
i. Receding Flood Waters Formed the Grand Canyon & Many Large Lakes & Removed Surface Rock Strata in Many Places
[COMMENT: The Tiahuanaco discussion also helped pinpoint when the present Moon may have arrived in Earth orbit. Recent reading of Cardona on nanodiamonds being from Saturn flares is what helped me see that a second flare must have occurred during the Flood, when the iridium layer was deposited. Walter Brown's info on Radioactivity led me to conclude that the radioactive elements in Earth's continental crust likely formed during rapid continental drift from an asteroid impact on the former supercontinent. I assume Antarctica froze when the continent moved to the South Pole. I doubt if Saturn was able to warm it there.]

3. GOLDEN AGE 4,500-4,250 BP
a. Saturn Configuration & Beginning of Myth-making
b. Present Moon Arrived; Equatorial Lands Inundated by High Ocean Level
c. Arctic Lands Warmed by Saturn
d. Age of Giant Mammals & Prolific Biosphere
e. Early Megalithic Civilization: Sumer, Egypt, Tiahuanaco, Gobekli Tepe, Baltic Troy; Bronze Age
[COMMENT: I previously thought the Golden Age began before the Great Flood after the supercontinent formed. But now it seems that the myth-making epoch likely occurred after the Great Flood and before the end of the Younger Dryas event, because few people likely survived the Flood to tell myths. There may have been a sort of Golden Age before the Flood, but the Golden Age of myths must refer to the time between the two major cataclysms. The Tiahuanaco discussion again made it seem likely that equatorial lands were flooded during the Golden Age. That's why the people there built their civilization high in the Andes mountains. The ocean level was that high then apparently. But I don't know if that would mean Egypt was flooded then too. I think it's 30 degrees north of the equator. Cardona said the oceans were high at the North Pole, so it seems they may have been high both at the pole and the equator, so that might mean that they were low everywhere in between. The idea that the Saturn System produced weak gravity on Earth makes it make sense that large animals and plants were more natural then and when the system broke up, gigantism was no longer so viable, except in the oceans.]

4. YOUNGER DRYAS EVENT 4,250 BP
a. Saturn Flare
b. Conflagration
c. Thinned Atmosphere & Arctic Carnage & Freezing
d. Planetoids in Chaotic Motion
e. Saturn System Broke Up
f. Gravity Increased; Gigantism Ended
[COMMENT: We've heard that the myths about the chaos of the ancient past were due to the planets on unstable orbits etc. Velikovsky had suggested this was about 1450 BC and 700 BC, but Cardona and Talbott et al concluded that his dating was too recent. They suggested centuries earlier, but gave no specifics. Now it seems that the Younger Dryas event 4250 years ago is most likely when that happened and when the system broke up. I imagine the Antarctic froze at the time of the Great Flood, as I said above, but the Arctic likely continued to receive heat from Saturn until the Saturn system broke up at the end of the Younger Dryas event.]

5. CIVILIZATION 4,250 - 0 BP
a. Arctic Ice Age Began; Greeks & Trojans Moved From Scandinavia to Mediterranean; Egypt & Sumer Continued; Late Bronze Age to Iron Age
b. Minor Impacts Continued for Centuries
c. Northern Climates Cooled; North Africa & Middle East Became Arid
d. Much History has been Faked by a Ruling Class
[COMMENT: Homer in the Baltic does a good job of persuading me that the Greeks and Trojans et al originated in Scandinavia and that they moved south as the climate got colder, when Saturn departed. Randall Carlson's video re Halloween showed that impacts often occurred near that date when Earth passed annually through the Taurid meteor stream. That stream was likely formed by a Saturn flare, I suppose. What is now the Sahara Desert was a thriving ecosystem before the YD event, by my reckoning. Miles Mathis has been finding that the ruling class has been in control of virtually all governments worldwide for millennia, so they've also been in control of what is written as History. Although many of the wars etc did occur, they never occurred for the reasons that are written in mainstream history. They were simply means of increasing control over the common people.]

Lloyd
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Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sun Sep 27, 2020 2:40 am

17309

(Continued)

I'll try to fill in the details of my above Earth History idea at https://futureschool.boards.net/post/154/thread
I spec I'll start with References and then get quotes and paraphrasing from them.

Lloyd
Posts: 5416
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:22 pm

17394

MOE MANDELKEHR'S CATASTROPHIST MODEL

Moe Mandelkehr did several papers that are viewable at Catastrophism.com. His model says cataclysms occurred in 2300 BC when Earth encountered the Taurid Meteor Stream. Here are some highlights.

__[[ARCHEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE]]
An Integrated Model for an Earthwide Event at 2300 BC. Part II: The Climatological Evidence [SIS C&C Review]
_From: SIS Chronology & Catastrophism Review 1987
_This article is the second in a series presenting evidence for a possible earthwide event at 2300 BC. The first article covering the archaeological evidence presented strong indications of site destructions widespread around the globe as well as migrations [1. The climatological evidence in this article shows very distinct climatic changes at that time which could have been a major stimulus for the migrations. Furthermore, the climatic changes were most likely to have been brought about by a global temperature drop which has also been established at about 2300 BC. ... The climatic change which took place around 2300 BC is clearly discernible; it took the form of a global cooling, with substantial trends toward either increased wetness or dryness in all regions of the Earth.

__[[CLIMATE CHANGE]]
The Causal Source for the Climatic Changes at 2300 BC [SIS C&C Review]
_From: SIS Chronology & Catastrophism Review 1999:1 (Jul 1999)
_A number of years ago, I wrote three articles on cultural discontinuities, climatic changes and geological transients - all occurring at about 2300BC [1.
_The primary causal factor for the overall event was the widespread and dramatic climatic changes arising from an abrupt cooling of the Earth. This caused a significant synchronous glacial buildup in both Polar and sub-Polar regions. The increased loading on the land areas and decreased loading in ocean areas (due to water taken by the glaciers) resulted in global crustal stress, leading to earthquakes and crustal deformation. Cultures in all geographical regions were affected by these climatic and geological disturbances. In the areas of the most advanced cultures, climate deterioration brought about survival hardships. The disastrous earthquakes brought about by crustal stress caused large-scale site abandonments but the climatic effects were the dominant influence on people. This paper covers the climatic changes, the global cooling causing the climatic changes and the proposed causal source for the global cooling.
__[[COMMENT: I mentioned lately that the book Homer in the Baltic showed that the Greek and Trojan War occurred in Finland and the people who fought in it came from the area around the Baltic Sea. The book said that climate change forced many of the people to migrate to the Mediterranean area.]]

__[[CATACLYSMS]]
The Causal Source for the Geological Transients at 2300BC [SIS C&C Review]
_From: SIS Chronology& Catastrophism Review 1999:1 (Jul 1999)
_A large body of evidence testifies to the occurrence of a sizeable geological disturbance at about 2300BC. This took the form of crustal movements, sea level changes, earthquakes and geomagnetic transient phenomena. My previous article attempted to develop a causal source for the climatic changes; the intent of this article is to do the same for the geological disturbances.
__[[METEOROID STREAM]]
_My premise is that the event at 2300 BC was caused by the Earth's encounter with a massive meteoroid stream. ... Meteoroids originating from comets are ... fragile and either burn up or fragment in the atmosphere. [[Actually, comets that have been studied up close were found to be rock solid, maybe with some dust.]] Experience has shown that very few cometary meteoroids ever arrive at the Earth's surface. Almost all craters on the Earth are made by asteroidal meteoroids that are iron or rocky-iron in composition, mainly associated with asteroids. Very simply, the most likely scenario is that the geological effects were due to an understandable geological event - the growth of glaciers resulting from the general Earth cooling. The glacial growth took water out of the ocean areas, causing an essentially synchronous drop in sea level around the Earth. The glacial crustal loading on land areas and the corresponding decreased loading in the water areas resulted in crustal warping in many regions and widespread earthquakes.
__[[COMMENT: A Saturn Flare seems likely to have formed the Taurid Meteor Stream and other meteor streams.]]
__[[GLACIATION]]
_The time around 2000 BC has actually been marked as a phase of renewed glacial activity and, as mentioned in my previous article, was designated as a 'little ice age' by Matthis [3. The glacial advances on the North American continent are consistent with the colder, moister conditions that have been reported as beginning then in that area. ... Rothlisberger has recently published an authoritative book on glacial activity over the last 10,000 years [15, a compendium of worldwide glacier measurements. He shows an essentially simultaneous glacial buildup starting at about 2300BC for all areas - Alaska/Yukon, Scandinavia, the Alps, Himalayas, Tropics (South America), southern South America and New Zealand [16. Glacial advances, of course, occurred before that time but he designates the time around 2300BC as an important glacial event.
__[[COMMENT: The North American Ice Sheet seems to have existed during the Golden Age, after the Great Flood and before the Younger Dryas event. That ice sheet likely only affected southern Canada and northern U.S. plus part of the north Atlantic and the Arctic Oceans, the locations according to Cardona.]]
__[[SEA LEVEL CHANGES]]
_The sea level changes at 2300 BC provide beautiful support for the reported glacial growths. They simply occurred as a result of water being taken out of the ocean areas by the glaciers. ... At about 2300 BC, the rate of sea level rise decreased along the coasts of all land areas- North and South America, Scandinavia, Europe, the Middle East, China and the Far East, Africa, Australia and New Zealand and the islands of the Pacific Ocean. ... According to McLean and Woodroffe, 'throughout Pacific atolls, there is evidence to indicate that reefs on many atolls were at or above present level 4500-4000 years BP'.
__[[CRUSTAL MOVEMENTS]]
_(P)late tectonics ... succeeds in explaining a large number of observations in relatively simple terms. Vertical movements can respond quickly (within years) to geological forces. ... Large subsidence rates have been detected in regions where water reservoirs have been constructed- 20mm/year or more is not uncommon. On the other hand, where gas or water pumping has occurred, reducing geographical loading, uplift rates are 50-100mm/year in some areas [25. Vertical movements responding to recent construction and pumping activity show the rapidity with which this phenomenon occurs. Movements can also vary greatly over even short distances: in Israel recently, measured movements were 5-10mm/year in the north, 10mm/year in the south and 25 mm/year on the coastal plain [26. A large number of crustal movements started around 2300BC, as summarised in Table 3. In a number of cases, they caused cultural migrations and discontinuities, when rivers changed course and settlements had to be abandoned. The crustal movements contributed to the overall trauma at this time. The dates clearly cluster around 2300BC. A question arises as to the degree of clustering around 2300BC. The answer lies in the fact that glaciers are located in many places on the Earth; furthermore, water taken from the oceans would also cause crustal vertical movements to occur in many oceanic areas. Changing climatic conditions would also affect lake levels. Uplifts and subsidences could then have started essentially simultaneously at 2300BC on a global basis with the beginning of the glacial growth. Stresses would then be extended throughout the asthenosphere as material was redistributed in the shallow layer. The effect on the crustal plates of stress change from the asthenospheric adjustment flow was probably severe. Crustal plates normally exist in high stress boundary conditions with other plates; they can be triggered by small stress changes. When this occurs, the plates move, vertically and/or laterally with respect to each other, to a lower stress condition. During an earthquake, vertical movements of 10-15 metres can occur suddenly, at rates of metres per second. In many cases, when this happens, each plate remains in an uplifted, subsided, or tilted position relative to its previous position [27.
__[[EARTHQUAKES]]
_A prominent aspect of the 2300BC event was widespread site destruction and abandonment throughout the regions of advanced civilisations. At many sites, destruction by earthquake was not recognised by the excavators, because of the difficulty of obtaining evidence. ... Schaeffer is prominent in reporting earthquake destruction [28. An obvious reason for this is that he was interested in a pattern comprising earthquake activity. ... Because of the Moon's eccentricity of 0.055, its distances from the Earth at apogee and perigee are about 407,000 and 357,000km respectively. The gravitational force at perigee is then 30% higher at perigee than at apogee. Tamrazyan analysed hundreds of earthquakes in Transcaucasia between 1917 and 1950 and found strong earthquake-tidal correlation. The number of earthquakes was strikingly higher at the time of full moon and perigee than at first or last quarter and apogee.
_In view of the widespread earthquake activity, my first reaction was to try to accumulate similar voluminous data on volcanic eruptions. However it wasn't there.
_Notes and References 15. F Rothlisberger, 10000 Jahre Gletschergeschichte der Erde, Verlag Sauerlander, 1986. 16. Ibid.
__[[COMMENT: Mandelkehr's model seems a bit too tame to describe the Younger Dryas event. North America and Siberia were obliterated. Doggerland, between Britain and Europe, was inundated. I have to think about this.]]

__[[GEOMAGNETISM]]
Geomagnetic Effects of an Earthwide Event in 2300 [SIS C&C Review]
From: SIS Chronology& Catastrophism Review 2001:1 (Apr 2001)
_(M)y model is based on the Earth's encounter with a massive meteoroid cloud. This meteoroid cloud produced the atmospheric dust which shielded the Earth from Solar radiation - the resultant sudden colder environment triggered the Arctic into a frozen configuration, thus causing the glacial buildup at high latitudes and lower sea levels at the Equator. The bottom line is that in both their model and my model there was glacial buildup and resultant geomagnetic effects. Also, as I shall show, sharp magnetic pulses or 'extensions' did occur at 2300 BC. I have found reports of the magnetic excursion/transient/pulse measured at many localities around the Earth - Czechoslovakia [12, Australia [13, Japan [14, China [15 and Oregon state in the northwestern US [16 respectively. Specifically in the case of the Oregon curve, the investigator Verosub remarks on the significant peak at about 4000 years ago, 'a peak almost 20 percent stronger than the present value' [17. Actually, the actual curve shows the peak very close to 2300 BC. Curves exist for all these locations [[all showing maximum intensity near 2300 BC]].
__[[RADIOCARBON DATING]]
_Excellent long term correlation has been established between past radiocarbon level and geomagnetic field strength [39. ... (T)here is a noticeable negative transient in radiocarbon level beginning right around 2300 BC, summarised by Johnston and supported by Seuss.... [This] 'puts uncertainties on any samples from calendar dates of 2500-2100 BC'.
__[[COMMENT: Cardona makes it sound like C14 dating is even more complicated and unreliable than that.]]

The Ring About The Earth at 2300 BC [SIS C&C Review]
_From: SIS Chronology& Catastrophism Review 2001:2 (Jan 2002)
__[[MYTHS]]
_What was it that caused the dust over the north Polar region that started all the geophysical effects? There are two possibilities: the more mundane one would be a volcanic eruption; the more dramatic one would be an encounter between the Earth and a massive meteoroid stream, the Taurids. I strongly favour the latter, based on the appearance of new religions in cultures all over the Earth at that time, reflecting an extraordinary happening; this would not have occurred in the case of a volcanic eruption. The religions have, of course, disappeared but their residual mythology remains. ... As would be expected, the religions at 2300 BC had much to say about thunderbolts hurled at the Earth, reflecting the fall of meteoroids. Surprisingly, the religions also appeared to speak of a ring extending around the Earth. This interpretation of the mythology is a possible viable alternative to other current interpretations. Since the ring was observable everywhere on the Earth's surface, it would be expected that it would be described by all cultures - and it was. Most commonly, it was described as a circle of flowing water. I have also found 24 interpretations, including a celestial mountain, a serpent holding its tail in its mouth, a time regulator, a chariot wheel and a set of horns.
__[[COMMENT: I think the myths state that the ring was around the Saturn System, not the Earth. Venus appeared for a time as a comet and formed the ring of dust etc around Saturn.]]

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Fri Oct 02, 2020 5:03 pm

17918

THREAD HIGHLIGHTS

I'm trying to reorganize main topics of this thread, so I can find info better. The unorganized version is here: https://futureschool.boards.net/thread/ ... read-index
(Numbers below refer to Thread page numbers. E.g. this is page 22.)

_MAJOR FINDINGS
1. MAJOR FINDINGS IN CATASTROPHISM https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... ?f=11&t=13

_EARTH HISTORY
12. COMMENTS ON CARDONA'S MODEL https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=165
18. EARTH'S CATACLYSMIC HISTORY https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=255
19. EARTH HISTORY https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=270
21. FOUR SATURN FLARES https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=300

_CARDONA'S MODEL
13. https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=180

_PREHISTORY
3. MOON'S ORIGIN https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... 3&start=30
18. SUPERCONTINENT ORIGIN; DATING SHOCK DYNAMICS; CARDONA'S MISDATING https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=255
20. PRESENT MOON REPLACED FORMER MOON https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=285
21. TWO MOONS https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=300

_FLOOD
4. CRATER FORMATION https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... 3&start=45
9. MORE ON CRATER FORMATION https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=120
13. SEDIMENTARY ROCK STRATA FORMATION; ORIGIN OF CRUSTAL RADIOACTIVITY; C14 DATING & RADIOACTIVE FOSSILS https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=180
17. FLOOD ERRATICS; IMPACTS; FLOOD RAIN; DENSER ATMOSPHERE; DISEASE https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=240
20. IMPACTS DURING THE GREAT FLOOD https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=285

_GOLDEN AGE
6. DATING GOBEKLI TEPE https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... 3&start=75
10. ANCIENT CIVILIZATION https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=135
14. ANCIENT MAPS FRAUD? https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=195
20. TIAHUANACO https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=285
21. GOLDEN AGE https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=300

_MYTHS
1. THE BIBLE AND ANCIENT MYTHS (Links) https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... ?f=11&t=13
12. Creation myths are post-Deluge https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=165
18. BIBLE FALLIBILITY; AGE OF UNIVERSE; BEFORE AND AFTER GENESIS CREATION https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=255
20. MYTHS WERE POST-FLOOD https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=285

_SATURN FLARES
14. TWO SATURN FLAREUPS https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=195
15. SATURN FLARE-UPS & COAL FORMATION https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=210
16. HYDROCARBONS ORIGIN; ORIGIN OF LOESS, MUCK; COSMIC METALS; COMETARY DEBRIS; GLACIAL ESKERS https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=225
17. SATURN FLARES; FLARE DEBRIS https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=240
19. SATURN'S RINGS & ITS HOUSE https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=270
20. IRON-60 FROM SATURN NOVA?; SATURN NOVA EJECTA https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=285

_YOUNGER DRYAS CATACLYSMS
20. YOUNGER DRYAS CONFLAGRATION https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=285
21. ANCIENT ARCTIC BIOLOGY; FLARE-UP HEAT WAVE TO FREEZING; CARDONA'S ONSLAUGHT OF ICE; SUPERCOOLING; GLOBAL COOLING ABOUT 2300 BC; SUDDEN ARCTIC FREEZING; NORTH POLAR VORTEX; POLAR COLUMN; THE ARCTIC DEPRESSION; YOUNGER DRYAS DUST STORMS https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=300
22. ARCTIC FLASH FREEZE OR NOT; SATURN HEAT & COLD BLASTS; FLASH FREEZING; HUMANS HUNTED MAMMOTHS? https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=315

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Fri Oct 02, 2020 6:06 pm

PS, COMMENT on ICE AGE: It seems that there was an Ice Sheet over southern Canada and northern U.S. during the Golden Age, but the rest of the world had mild climate. I'm not as sure about Antarctica. I think Cardona said Antarctica was warm till Saturn went away, but I think it froze over after the Great Flood when it moved from Pangaea to the South Pole. The Arctic remained warm because Saturn was still over the North Pole, but I don't think Saturn's warmth would have reached to the South Pole, because if it could reach there, it should have been able to reach under the cloud cover in Canada and the U.S.
_So Antarctica and central North America likely had Ice Sheets during the Golden Age after the Great Flood, but after the Younger Dryas event which ended the Golden Age, Saturn left the celestial North Pole and the Arctic froze over, but the Saturn Flare melted the Ice Sheet in central North America. Thus, much of North America warmed up after the Younger Dryas, but the rest of the world became cooler. Southern Greenland may have had an Ice Sheet during the Golden Age, but northern Greenland was likely ice free until after the Younger Dryas event, when it became glaciated.

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sat Oct 03, 2020 8:07 pm

18420

RECENT ARTICLES/VIDEOS

MEGALITHS & LIGHTNING

_Some scientists think megaliths were built where lightning was common, because the ancients worshipped the sender of lightning. But the second article below I think says megaliths were built to protect people from lightning, by acting as lightning rods. I consider megaliths to belong probably to the Golden Age, which I date as after the Great Flood and before the Younger Dryas events. Since Earth was still close to Saturn at that time, an implication is that lightning was more severe and frequent during the Golden Age and maybe before the Great Flood as well. The atmosphere was almost certainly much denser, but I don't know if that would make lightning more common. Venus' atmosphere is much thicker than Earth's and Mars' atmosphere is much thinner. It says here https://www.space.com/mars-lightning-we ... phere.html "If lightning exists on Mars, it may be less energetic and frequent than lightning on Earth, all because of the Red Planet's thin air, a new study finds." And a paper here https://progearthplanetsci.springeropen ... 018-0181-x says the data for lightning on Venus isn't yet sufficient to determine how common or energetic it is there.

SCIENTISTS FIND MEGALITHIC LIGHTNING ROD ON SCOTTISH ISLE
https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/scientist ... ttish-isle

Lightning and Megaliths – The Connection
https://thedailyplasma.blog/2017/10/26/ ... nt-page-1/

Lucky strike? How lightning inspired builders of Callanish
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... s-scotland

I have a lot of info on megalithic sies etc in my Evidence thread at https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... 3149#p3149

ANCIENT EGYPTIANS, SIRIUS, PLEIADES, GALACTIC FILAMENTS

_In the Thunderbolts video, Seeing Precession Differently, at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdLxP-w1LGg , Gareth Samuel says "Homan was interested in why the Egyptians used Sirius to mark their calendar. He discovered that Sirius rises with the Sun the same day each year [unlike any other star]. ... Cruttendon and Homan were convinced that this was evidence that Sirius was circling us. ... We appear to be orbiting the same axis, but not the same center of mass. ... In a gravity-only model, there simply was no way for these two stars to orbit an axis further out. There simply wasn't enough mass to do this."
_But an Electric model finds that these and some other local stars are within a pair of helical filaments. The Sun and Sirius are within opposite filaments, orbiting a central massless axis. What is called Precession is actually these helical filament motions. These two filaments circle the star Arcturus, which circles the Pleiades.

SATURN NOVA SHOCKWAVES & NANODIAMONDS

New insights into the origin of diamonds in meteorites
https://phys.org/news/2020-09-insights- ... rites.html
_"there is no evidence requiring formation under the high static pressures and long growth time conditions of a planet's deep interior. The team investigated diamonds in three ureilite samples using electron microscopy, micro X-ray diffraction, and Raman (laser) spectroscopy. Their investigations revealed both large (up to 100 micrometers in size) and small (nanometers in size) grains of diamond, along with metallic iron and graphite, in the carbon-rich regions located among the silicate mineral grains in these samples. ... the ureilites that we investigated have all been highly shocked, based on the evidence from their silicate minerals, which strongly suggests that both large and small diamonds in these rocks formed from original graphite via shock processes. ... Nestola et al. calculated that peak shock pressures could last for 4-5 seconds during a major impact such as that inferred for the ureilite parent body. This is sufficient for formation of 100 micrometer-sized diamonds when catalyzed by the presence of metal, a process commonly used in production of diamonds in industry. Since metal is ubiquitously associated with the carbon phases in ureilites, catalyzed formation of large diamonds from original graphite under shock compression is very likely."
_Nanodiamonds, like Iridium, are possible indicators of Saturn Nova events. One nova event appears to have occurred during the K/T rock strata forming phase of the Great Flood where such minerals are much more abundant than usual in the rock record. Another nova event was likely at the Younger Dryas event a few centuries later, higher up in the rock record. Before the Great Flood there may have been similar nova deposits of minerals, but they would be harder to find. In both cases the novas appear to have wiped out large creatures, first the large dinosaurs, then the large mammals. That may be because the atmosphere was thinned out both times by Saturn nova blasts.

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sun Oct 04, 2020 1:55 am

18488

(Continued)
MORE FROM CARDONA'S BOOKS

THE GOD SHU AS SATURN'S POLAR COLUMN
(GS: God Star; FS: Flare Star; PS: Primordial Star)
__GS p.437
_The Egyptian god Shu was said to have flowed from Ra,38 but by others as having been self-created.39 He was, in effect, the very breath of Ra.40 Like Ehecatl, Shu was described, and profusely depicted, as holding up the "sky."41 Additionally, like Boreas, he was also considered to have been the personification of the north wind.42 Rather than separating the celestial waters from the terrestrial ones, as in the case of Ehecatl and Elohim, Shu was said to have separated heaven from Earth.43
[_Ref 38 E. A. W. Budge, The Gods of the Egyptians, Vol. II (N. Y., 1904/1969), p. 88. 39 D. A. Mackenzie, op.cit., p. 189. 40 E. A. W. Budge, op. cit., p. 92. 41 Ibid., p. 89. 42 Ibid., p. 91. 43 D. A. Mackenzie, op. cit., p. xl.]

POLAR COLUMN REMNANTS ON EARTH
__GS p.459
_Cardona said tidal forces from Saturn [& Venus & Mars] would have raised a bulge on Earth's North Pole, of land, water and atmosphere, forming a vortex of tornadic winds at the pole. Remember the Arctic Carnage, the frozen muck (soil and dead animal and plant parts blown around apparently by hurricane-force winds) of Alaska and Siberia.
__GS p.466
_"The tidal heaping of Earth's interior magma [under the North Pole] ... would have resulted from the friction between this molten material and the enveloping crust.... This heated plastic matter would then have broken through the surface, causing a collapse of the crust. This is precisely what has been discovered in the Eurasian Basin of the Arctic Ocean, an area which 'represents a regional collapse of the Earth's surface due to material being removed from the lower mantle.'46 Even more recently, a swirling vortex of molten rock has been discovered 3000 kilometers beneath the North Pole.47"
_[Ref 46 Y. Herman (ed.), Marine Geology and Oceanography of the Arctic Sea (N. Y., 1974), p. 100. 47 "Hurricane of Rock," New Scientist (November 13, 1999), p. 27.]

REMNANTS ON SATURN
__FS p.498
_A colossal hurricane is sustained perpetually at Saturn's south pole 5,000 miles across, towering 45 miles high, with a wind speed of 350 miles per hour.4
[_Ref 4 A. Stone. Loc. cit. 2 A. Stone. "Cosmic Katrina." Discover (February 2007), p. 12: M. K. Baumann . et al .. What's Out There (London. 2005). pp. 136- 137.]
Saturn's south pole would have been the very pole facing Earth. It was the very pole from which the sustained Birkeland current would have extended in roiling fashion toward Earth. Saturn's heavier atmosphere and its ensuing hurricane, both occurring in its south pole, which pole happens to be the warmest locality on the entire planet, can thus be explained as a resultant consequence of its former churning vortex.
_An atmospheric hexagonal feature came to light at Saturn's north pole, first discovered in 1988.5
[_Ref 5 Icarus 76 ( 1988). pp. 335-356.]
_Proto-Saturn's sustained Birkeland current would have extended from both poles. What we thus see in Saturn's present poles, both north and south, are the atmospheric remnants of its former bi-polar jet.

SATURN HEATING REMNANT UNDER EARTH'S NORTH POLE
__PS p.265
_"Once the axis retracted itself,5 the water it had held suspended in its vortex would have been released as rain. Additionally, proto-Saturn's immobile placement,6 to say nothing of its close proximity, would have exerted tremendous tectonic influences on the area directly beneath it [in the North Pole area]. Supplementary evidence includes the recently discovered 'remarkable hot zone' beneath the Arctic ice 'where Earth's thick rocky crust has come apart at the seams and lava and scalding water spew out of volcanoes and hot vents.' This zone occurs along the Gakkel Ridge, five kilometers beneath the ice, which stretches all the way along the sea floor from Greenland to Siberia. This ridge is still active with at least twenty volcanoes rising from it, one of which erupted in July of 1998. Hydrothermal vents also abound. If this is going on at the moment, it would have been occurring during those earlier ages when the Arctic was still free of ice."
_[Ref 5 Flare Star, pp. 279 ff. 6 See here God Star, pp. 465-466; Flare Star, pp. 137-145. 7 M. Munro, "Volcanoes and Hot Vents Found Under Arctic," The Vancouver Sun (June 26, 2003), p. A8.]

PROOF OF SATURN'S POSSIBLE FORMER POLAR COLUMN (aside from Myths etc)
__FS p.288
_"It is well known that at least some bipolar jets have remained in situ even after a star explodes. This is proven by the existence of just such jets in the Vela supernova remnant 6 as well as the remnant of the supernova that gave rise to the Crab Nebula.7"
_[Ref 6 Anonymous. "Do All Pulsars Fly Pole-First?" Sky & Telescope (September 2000). p. 20. 7 K. A. Svitil, "Cracking the Crab," Discover (February 2000), p. 12; R. Talcott, "The Crab's Inner Workings," Astronomy (January 2003). pp. 24, 26.]
__FS p.492
_"That jets are created by plasmoids has long been known. These jets are 'shot' in opposite direction from both poles of the plasmoid.4 Such bi-polar jets have not only been detected emanating from stars but have actually been photographed.5 And similar bi-polar jets have also been detected emanating from brown dwarf stars.6 More than that, bi-polar jets seem to be closely associated with circumstellar disks.7"
_[Ref 4 B. Hills, Origins: Cosmology, Evolution &Creation (Cambridge, 2003), p. 36. 5 R. Burnham, "Two Dust Jets Near the Solar System," Astronomy (June 2004), p. 24; T. P. Ray, "Fountains of Youth: Early Days in the Life of a Star," Scientific American Special Edition-The Secret lives of Stars (2004), pp. 14-15, 16. 6 R. Naeye, "'Free-Floating Planet' Claims Bolstered," Sky & Telescope (October 2004), p. 20. 7 T. P. Ray, op. cit. p. 17.]

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sun Oct 04, 2020 9:58 pm

19032

(Continued)
FLOOD OR GLACIER?

MOUNTAIN UPLIFT, STRIATIONS & ERRATICS
__FS (Flare Star) p.67
_Cardona referenced Amerindian legends suggesting that their distant ancestors observed the formation of mountains. One legend says a huge cloud descended over the prairie land and when the cloud lifted lofty mountains and deep canyons appeared.

__FS p.69-70
_Cardona said "Allan and Delair note that, at many sites, 'the striations occur only on the summits of high hills or only on the northern or northwestern slopes of mountains.' As they conclude: 'Such evidence suggests that whatever produced them proceeded from a general northern or northwestern direction....'2" Cardona considers this to be evidence that the mountains uplifted after the striations were made. Striations were likely made by Flooding, not Glaciation.

FLOOD WINS

COMMENT: Cardona and Thornhill once had a disagreement about striations, erratics etc (striations being grooves in bedrock etc and erratics being large rocks found far from where they likely originated). Cardona thought they were evidence of glaciation, but Thornhill thought they were more likely caused by floods. Were the striations and erratics formed by glaciation or flooding? This brief article at https://creation.com/media-center/youtu ... flood-rock says "underwater landslides cause striations, similar to the ones caused by glaciers today." Apparently, the material in landslides make the striations in the underlying bedrock, then slide away, leaving the bedrock and striations exposed. Erratics would then also be caused by flood waters, i.e. raging waters. Anyway, striations would only show on one side of mountains and hills if they formed before the mountains uplifted, which indicates the striations formed in Noah's Flood when mountains also formed near the end of the Flood.

_Michael Oard said at https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j19 ... 3_9-10.pdf "striated pavements in other pre-Pleistocene ‘ice ages’ are not clearcut indicators of glaciation, and ... mass flow may be responsible for many, if not all, pre-Pleistocene ‘ice ages.’1
_[Ref 1. Oard, M.J., Ancient Ice Ages or Gigantic Submarine Landslides? Creation Research Society Monograph No. 6, Creation Research Society, Chino Valley, AZ, 1997]

_In a review of Oard's book at https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j12 ... 70-272.pdf Andrew Snelling said as follows.
"Oard's final chapter ... presents the case for gigantic submarine landslides during the Genesis Flood. Oard rightly points out that the thick sediments deposited catastrophically during the Flood would have been unstable. Therefore huge earthquakes and massive Flood tectonics would have commonly mobilised large landslides and submarine mass/debris flows. Thus huge Flood diamictites would have been deposited on nearly flat basin bottoms. This is a feature of the diamictites that have been touted as deposits of pre-Pleistocene 'ice ages'. Indeed, Oard maintains that Flood-generated landslides would have duplicated the unusual features of these diamictites. In other words, huge landslides mimic the diagnostic features of these pre-Pleistocene 'ice age' deposits."

FOSSIL-FREE TILLITES/DEBRIS FROM SATURN?
COMMENT: Diamictites are tillites. Some or all tillites are said to be free of fossils. I don't know if Cardona said anything about that, but loess is also said to be free of fossils and Cardona considered some such material to be possible debris from Saturn Flares. I think Thomas Gold said it's not from outer space, because it doesn't have indications of shockwave fractures like tektites have. But maybe there are conditions under which such material would not get such shock features.

WHICH FLOOD? NOAH'S OR YD?
_I've stated recently here that there appear to have been two major Floods. Noah's Flood, also called the Great Flood, occurred about 4,500 years ago. And the Younger Dryas Flood occurred about 42,500 years ago. The Bible seems to date the YD Flood, although it describes Noah's Flood. Moses wrote the book of Genesis, which describes Noah's Flood, and he lived about 800 years after the YD Flood and 1,100 years after Noah's Flood. So people apparently conflated the two Floods into one. The time that mountains formed was likely near the end of Noah's Flood. Tiahuanaco existed after the Great Flood and was destroyed in the YD Flood. The ocean near the equator was 12,000 or so feet higher than now, possibly because of the close proximity of the Saturn system and or the Moon or two moons. That made Tiahuanaco a port city just above sea level. The YD Flood destroyed Tiahuanaco and then, as the Saturn system broke up, equatorial ocean levels receded to their present level.

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Rick
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Rick » Mon Oct 05, 2020 3:52 pm

"The ocean near the equator was 12,000 or so feet higher than now, possibly because of the close proximity of the Saturn system and or the Moon or two moons. That made Tiahuanaco a port city just above sea level. The YD Flood destroyed Tiahuanaco and then, as the Saturn system broke up, equatorial ocean levels receded to their present level." (Lloyds's statement)

Your description seems assume an oblate ocean figure. If Earth and Saturn shared a common axis the ocean figure would have been prolate. If there had been enough water to reach Tiahuanaco then (if it was at it's present elevation), much of any existing northern and southern lands would have been covered.

The moon, if it was present in the system, would not likely have been a satellite of Earth.

Can you clarify what you were thinking?

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by nick c » Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:38 pm

Lloyd,
You have to consider (with regard to Tiahuanaco) the alternative (to a sea level 12,000 ft higher than today); that the mountain (and possibly all of the Andes) were created in a cataclysmic tectonic movement, raising Tiahuanaco and Lake Titicaca up to their present altitude.

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Tue Oct 06, 2020 3:28 pm

19245

TIAHUANACO ON PROLATE EARTH WITH FASTER SPIN?
Rick said if Saturn were over the North Pole, the Earth should have been prolate instead of oblate. Prolate would be oval shaped with the poles of the oval in line with Saturn's poles, which seems to be true. I had figured that maybe the moon or moons orbiting Earth's equator might raise equatorial ocean levels. But upon thinking about Rick's idea, it occurs to me that the Earth's crust and plastic mantle and asthenosphere should also be warped into prolate form. So it may be a matter of which one would be more prolate. Twelve thousand feet is just over 2 miles. Earth's diameter is just over 7,900 miles. 2/7900 = .00025. So a few thousand feet one way or the other is a very small difference. If the Earth were spinning a little faster than now, the spin might have raised ocean levels enough to make up the difference. There is evidence that there were previously 360 days in a year. I don't know if that would have been fast enough to raise equatorial sea level 2 miles. If the physical evidence is true, i.e. sea level strand lines near the level of Lake Titicaca and signs of former salt water in the area and saltwater organisms, like sea horses, living in the lake, then it's pretty likely that the ocean level was formerly that high.

ANDES MOUNTAINS UPLIFTED BEFORE OR AFTER TIAHUANACO WAS BUILT?
Nick said the lake could have been formerly at sea level, but was raised up as the Andes mountains uplifted. That's what I had formerly thought and I think it's what Velikovsky had suggested, but my recent discussion of Tiahuanaco mentioned a book that said the ocean level was previously much higher up the Andes mountains after they had formed. It would be simpler that way. Otherwise, you'd have to have the lake and the city stay intact as the mountains uplifted. I figure the mountains formed in the last stages of the Great Flood, shortly before Tiahuanaco was built. Egyptians found the upper levels of the Andes above sea level and colonized them. When the Saturn system broke up and departed, tsunamis drowned the inhabitants of Tiahuanaco and then the ocean levels went down to near present levels.

CONTINTENTAL DRIFT, OCEAN RESISTANCE, MOUNTAIN FORMATION
I like Mike Fischer's model of rapid continental drift, caused by an asteroid hitting the supercontinent, Pangaea, causing the pieces, i.e. continents etc, to rapidly move apart in all directions. I don't think he has discussed how the oceans would have affected the movements. I think they would have been a strong opposing force, but if the supercontinent were streamlined, like a ship or airplane, the friction or opposing force would have been reduced. The oceans would likely have flowed over the continents as they were moving outward. The flooding would have drowned everything on the continents except maybe where the impulse mountains formed (Appalachians etc) at the trailing edges of the continents. The mountains on the leading edges (Rockies, Andes, etc) of the continents didn't form until the continents slowed down and started to come to a stop. See https://www.newgeology.us/ . If Earth were more prolate and faster spinning then, the flood waters would have been deeper, I think.

RELATED?
I was trying to find images online of strand lines in the Andes, but didn't have much luck, although I found this interesting article:
Results of an Expedition to the Central Andes https://www.jstor.org/stable/201641?ori ... b_contents
It's a PDF that's easy to access and it has some images and discussion of strand lines. I think the expedition was in or before 1907. It shows a couple other lakes that formerly existed near Lake Titicaca. One was a glacial lake. I think the other had saltwater?

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Rick
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Rick » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:43 pm

Re: TIAHUANACO ON PROLATE EARTH WITH FASTER SPIN? (Lloyd)

When I decided to test the Mars ocean hypothesis (Clifford and Parker, 2001) I looked for information on Earth's solar and lunar tides effects. What I found had no attribution but was mentioned almost in passing in the article. For what it may be worth:

1. Lunar tide creates an approximately 1 meter bulge in the open ocean; about 1/100 of that in the earth's crust.
2. Lunar tide to solar tide ratio is about 2 to 1.
3. Lunar tide is about 67% of a combined solar-lunar tide.

This would suggest that a prolate water bulge would be greater that a prolate lithosphere bulge. The question is: How big a bulge with how much water to reach the elevation of Titicaca. The angle of the remanent shoreline might be useable to make an estimate.

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