Flat Earth

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light? If you have a personal favorite theory, that is in someway related to the Electric Universe, this is where it can be posted.
allynh
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Re: Flat Earth

Unread post by allynh » Sat Jul 16, 2022 2:11 am

I remembered a novel by Christopher Priest, a few weeks ago:

Inverted World
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_World
Elizabeth explains to the citizens their true situation. A global energy crisis (the "Crash") had devastated civilisation, a disaster from which the world is only gradually emerging. Destaine was a British particle physicist who had discovered a new way to generate power, but nobody took him seriously. The process required a natural component to work. Destaine found one such in China: the optimum. He went there to set up a test generator and was never heard of again. His invention has serious permanent and hereditary side effects, distorting people's perceptions (for example the shape of the sun) and damaging their DNA so that fewer females are born. After nearly two centuries, the city has reached the coast of Portugal, with only the Atlantic Ocean ahead. Most of the residents are convinced, but to Elizabeth's disappointment, Helward refuses to give up his beliefs.
They are drawing power from a field effect that distorts their perception. Even after the field is turned off, the character still has visual distortions.

What if? the field that mimics one gravity on the flat Earth creates visual distortions that account for everything that we see. Of course, if the field was turned off we would all die as the atmosphere, etc..., evaporated.

The other thing that hit me was the TV series The Land of the Lost.

It was a closed, flat, universe, where when you stand on a tall mountain, and use a telescope, you can see yourself standing on the mountain. Also, you can climb down an access ladder and emerge on the "other side" of the flat world.

The other was a movie that was a duplicate area of New Mexico that was actually on a spaceship.

The Signal (2014 film)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Signal_(2014_film)

The Signal Official Trailer #1 (2014) - Laurence Fishburne, Brenton Thwaites Movie HD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwgfeR2pMuE

The ending is where he crashes through the false edge and sees that they are on a spaceship.

The Signal Epic Ending
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1WJ6Ma3aiw

The movie was filmed here in New Mexico. Each time I watch the ending, it makes me wonder what I would find if I just tried to drive north to "Colorado". Yikes!

Based on your links and what I mentioned above, I can see a Story with an artificial flat Earth that is contained in a closed universe -- a World in a Bottle -- that would mimic what we have seen so far, and the illusion would only start to fall apart when we extend too far out in "space".

This would be the classic:

Of Course We’re Living in a Simulation
https://www.wired.com/story/living-in-a-simulation/

Only we are not on an Alien Supercomputer. Simply, that this bubble of Reality we are living in is an Analog Computer. There is no outside, there is only inside.

This all ties into:

- Modal Realism

- The Strong Anthropic Principle(SAP)

And of course:

- Electric Universe

That's where, as I mentioned up thread, that the Webb telescope is an "instrument too far" and our artificial Reality will start to show its flaws. After all, the "pictures" they are showing are clearly Photoshopped. HA!

All this is going into my Story folders. I need to write this stuff, especially now.

Thanks...

BuckeyeFrank
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Location: Ohio

Re: Flat Earth

Unread post by BuckeyeFrank » Thu Sep 08, 2022 2:35 am

allynh wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 8:04 pm Oops!

NASA Spacewalk EVA 64 | GoPro HD | Earth and the International Space Station
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74cucrGpQmA

I'll have to figure out how to work this into Story.
Wow! If a FE proponent were to ask me to explain this, I don't think I could...
The beginning of the video shows a straight-line horizon at 240 miles up. It appears to not use a wide-angle lens.
https://newsaf.cgtn.com/news/2022-09-02 ... index.html

I think to help give the reader a convincing narrative of my FE world story, I'd have to include this as anecdotal evidence. A little truth in a tall tale goes a long way. ;)

allynh
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Re: Flat Earth

Unread post by allynh » Thu Sep 08, 2022 10:58 pm

Yes, build that "Sense of Wonder" by having actual flights that show the Flat Earth and trying to understand how it is possible. The characters actually explore the limits and measure the "fields" that contain the Flat Earth.

I'm liking the Story more and more as I read through the whole thread again.

Just like in Nightfall by Asimov, the discovery of a Flat Earth "Reality" would devastate a number of people.

This movie has come out since the thread began. I need to watch it again.

Moonfall (2022 Movie) Official Trailer – Halle Berry, Patrick Wilson, John Bradley
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivIwdQBlS10

Thanks...

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nick c
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Re: Flat Earth

Unread post by nick c » Thu Sep 08, 2022 11:30 pm

How much of a curve would one expect to see standing 240 miles away from an almost 8,000 mile diameter sphere?
It seems to me that the section of arc in the image is not large enough to yield the perception of an obvious curve.

BuckeyeFrank
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Location: Ohio

Re: Flat Earth

Unread post by BuckeyeFrank » Sat Sep 10, 2022 11:48 pm

nick c wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 11:30 pm How much of a curve would one expect to see standing 240 miles away from an almost 8,000 mile diameter sphere?
It seems to me that the section of arc in the image is not large enough to yield the perception of an obvious curve.
I agree, it's like the Indian ocean picture link I posted. Carma is so funny, I find myself feeling the Frustration GaryN feels about finding unbiased photo evidence. :roll:

But here is a graphic attempting to estimate it.
https://i.stack.imgur.com/Mxsv1.jpg

JTolan via his youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqjHW3 ... Ew9yRW_Hcw using infrared photography from aircraft windows can see mountains and lakes structures far exceeding the estimated horizon for commercial aircraft altitude.
So I think there is still wiggle room in the narrative to convince the "I want to believe crowd" that I would try to appeal to.

allynh; Moonfall (2022 Movie) Official Trailer – Halle Berry, Patrick Wilson, John Bradley...
Its going to be a cult classic!

BuckeyeFrank
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:24 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: Flat Earth

Unread post by BuckeyeFrank » Tue Sep 13, 2022 5:35 am

BuckeyeFrank wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 2:35 am
Wow! If a FE proponent were to ask me to explain this, I don't think I could...

I think to help give the reader a convincing narrative of my FE world story, I'd have to include this as anecdotal evidence. A little truth in a tall tale goes a long way. ;)
As far as the "anecdotal evidence" folder goes, I think I could include this;
Weather Balloon drift.
https://www.weather.gov/bmx/kidscorner_weatherballoons
Twice a day, every day of the year, weather balloons are released simultaneously from almost 900 locations worldwide! This includes 92 released by the National Weather Service in the US and its territories. The balloon flights last for around 2 hours, can drift as far as 125 miles away, and rise up to over 100,000 ft. (about 20 miles) in the atmosphere!.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=earth+rot ... cc=0&ghpl=
To determine the speed at any other latitude, simply multiply the cosine of the degree latitude times the speed of 1,037.5646. Thus, at 45 degrees north, the cosine is .7071068, so multiply .7071068 times 1,037.5464, and the speed of the rotation is 733.65611 miles per hour (1,180.7 km/h).

Is it just me (" I want to believe") or does this not make sense?
Or that Carma is spelled with a K? :o

Would this help influence any on-the-fence readership, to think that the story world is possible enough to draw the imagination into a believable reality?

allynh
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Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:51 am

Re: Flat Earth

Unread post by allynh » Wed Sep 14, 2022 7:35 pm

Whoa, that's trippy.

I then asked what the speed at the North Pole was, and it is zero.
At the North Pole (90 degrees north) and South Pole (90 degrees south), the speed is effectively zero because that spot rotates once in 24 hours, at a very, very slow speed. To determine the speed at any other latitude, simply multiply the cosine of the degree latitude times the speed of 1,037.5646.
That fits with the Story I see where a plane is flying over the South Pole, and like in the movie Langoliers, they see the underlying reality of the world. They find themselves flying along the edge of a suddenly flat earth. They have to reverse the process and find a way back to the spherical earth.

This is like the short story Dante Dreams by Stephen Baxter where it was inspired by the paper:

Dante and the 3-sphere
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... e_3-sphere

This is another piece of the puzzle for the Story that I am beginning to see.

Thanks...

BuckeyeFrank
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Location: Ohio

Re: Flat Earth

Unread post by BuckeyeFrank » Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:38 pm

by allynh I then asked what the speed at the North Pole was, and it is zero.
At the North Pole (90 degrees north) and South Pole (90 degrees so
allynh wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 7:35 pm That fits with the Story I see where a plane is flying over the South Pole, and like in the movie Langoliers, they see the underlying reality of the world. They find themselves flying along the edge of a suddenly flat earth. They have to reverse the process and find a way back to the spherical earth.
Yes, I think you have a brilliant line of thinking there, in the absence of rotation, a different reality dominates.

You sidestep getting bogged down explaining too much anecdotal evidence, embracing both story realities.

You will clearly have greater sales exceeding my tedious volume, as I try to re-invent the wheel. "Rots a Ruck" ( Scoobie Do speak. I've been around my dogs too much lately ).

allynh
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Re: Flat Earth

Unread post by allynh » Wed Sep 14, 2022 11:10 pm

I pulled out Phase Space by Stephen Baxter to read the story Dante Dreams again, and noticed mention of his paper:

Baxter, Stephen, 2001, The Planetarium Hypothesis: A Resolution of the Fermi Paradox, Journal of the British Interplanetary Society, Vol. 54, no. 5/6, pp. 210–216.

It seems to be hidden behind a paywall, so that's no fun, but here is the wiki entry that mentions it.

Planetarium hypothesis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planetarium_hypothesis

Here is an article that discusses the paper, enough to get a sense of what it says. He echoes many of the things we have mentioned. That if we are in a simulation, we will meet the edge of it at some point.

Solution The Planetarium Hypothesis
https://www.fossilhunters.xyz/extraterr ... hesis.html
With our present level of technology, therefore, we are incapable of testing whether our Universe is "real" or the result of a simulation developed by a K3 civilization. But as we probe more of the Universe, and have our probes travel well past Pluto and into the outer reaches of the Solar System, we will reach a point where we can be certain that any simulation is less than perfect. A simulation could exceed 100 AU, but it would not be a perfect simulation; our instruments could in principle detect the inconsistencies in such a lower-quality simulation. In a few years, Voyager 1 will pass the 100-AU boundary; if it bumps into a metal wall that has been painted black — well, the game will be up for the planetarium builders!

The planetarium hypothesis defies both Occam's razor and our basic intuition about how the Universe works. It verges on paranoia to suppose that a K3 civilization would go to such effort simply to persuade us that our Universe is empty. Baxter himself advances it only as a possibility to be eliminated (and I am sure he does not believe it to be true). But at least we can eventually eliminate it. In the decades to come, as we explore more of the Universe and test the fabric of reality at ever-larger distance scales, we will either find an inconsistency in the simulation or be forced to accept that the Universe is "real." And if it turns out the Universe is "real" — which I am sure most readers would be prepared to wager is the case — then we will have to look elsewhere for a resolution of the Fermi paradox.
Another possibility:

Zoo hypothesis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoo_hypothesis

The wiki entry has a nice list of fiction as examples.

The Fossil Hunters website has a number of interesting articles that I need to read through. Great resource.

Extraterrestrial Life
https://www.fossilhunters.xyz/extraterrestrial-life/

BuckeyeFrank
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Location: Ohio

Re: Flat Earth

Unread post by BuckeyeFrank » Fri Sep 16, 2022 9:40 pm

BuckeyeFrank wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 5:35 am
BuckeyeFrank wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 2:35 am
Wow! If a FE proponent were to ask me to explain this, I don't think I could...

I think to help give the reader a convincing narrative of my FE world story, I'd have to include this as anecdotal evidence. A little truth in a tall tale goes a long way. ;)
As far as the "anecdotal evidence" folder goes, I think I could include this;
Weather Balloon drift.
https://www.weather.gov/bmx/kidscorner_weatherballoons
Twice a day, every day of the year, weather balloons are released simultaneously from almost 900 locations worldwide! This includes 92 released by the National Weather Service in the US and its territories. The balloon flights last for around 2 hours, can drift as far as 125 miles away, and rise up to over 100,000 ft. (about 20 miles) in the atmosphere!.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=earth+rot ... cc=0&ghpl=
To determine the speed at any other latitude, simply multiply the cosine of the degree latitude times the speed of 1,037.5646. Thus, at 45 degrees north, the cosine is .7071068, so multiply .7071068 times 1,037.5464, and the speed of the rotation is 733.65611 miles per hour (1,180.7 km/h).
Oops, o dam;
If my potential "on the fence readership, says there are plenty of space photos of the whole earth!

I'll direct them to, (https://eol.jsc.nasa.gov/ ) Gateway to Astronaut Photography.

To this QA page; https://eol.jsc.nasa.gov/FAQ/#cloudMasks
Where can I find a photograph of the whole Earth as seen from space?
We like the image of the Big Blue Marble" taken from Apollo-17. A private company called Arc Science Simulations has also made satellite composites that have been used in posters and museum displays. These aren't real photographs, but are combined from many satellite images to show what the Earth would look like if there were, for example, no clouds. The NASA Earth Observations site also offers global mosaics of MODIS data for download. Global mosaics are available for various times of year.
Yet for an Apollo image, it doesn't mention this major revelation;
AS08-16-2593
https://eol.jsc.nasa.gov/SearchPhotos/p ... frame=2593
Image Caption: A striking view from the Apollo 8 spacecraft showing nearly the entire Western Hemisphere, from the mouth of the St. Lawrence River, including nearby Newfoundland, extending to Tierra del Fuego at the southern tip of South America. Central America is clearly outlined. Nearly all of South America is covered by clouds, except the high Andes Mountain chain along the west coast. A small portion of the bulge of west Africa shows along the sunset terminator.
Guess I should forward this to Bart Sibrel ... :shock:
Is it just me (" I want to believe") or does this not make sense?
Or that Carma is spelled with a K? :o

BuckeyeFrank
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Location: Ohio

Re: Flat Earth

Unread post by BuckeyeFrank » Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:41 am

I just watched: Wal Thornhill on the Patreon Channel : The Long Path to Understanding Gravity | EU2015.

I don't have the nerve to bastardize his awesome presentation using aspects of it in this thread.

But to have access to that channel is well worth it!

allynh
Posts: 1115
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:51 am

Re: Flat Earth

Unread post by allynh » Sun Jan 01, 2023 7:05 pm

Just stumbled on this video by Dave de Hilster, from 2 years ago.

Weaponizing the Flat Earth Movement
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYU86B4z91M

This is an article based on the video.

Weaponizing the Flat Earth Movement
https://beyondmainstream.org/mainstream ... -movement/

This is such a profound concept, on so many levels.

- Flat Earth Theory as a Prank!

That makes absolute sense. It clearly got hijacked by "True Believers" and "Paid Trolls". I have seen so many concepts and ideas embraced by people that have no basis in reality, yet are promoted by hucksters and believers with their own agendas.

What I find fascinating, is that Dave is right, and has clearly stated his case, yet when I search the internet, no one wants to embrace it. Even YouTube felt the need to slap the obligatory label pushing people to Wikipedia, despite the fact that Dave was clear as a bell.

I'm going to have to let this sink in before I can see all of the implications.

BuckeyeFrank
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Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:24 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: Flat Earth

Unread post by BuckeyeFrank » Mon Jan 02, 2023 9:41 pm

allynh wrote: Sun Jan 01, 2023 7:05 pm Just stumbled on this video by Dave de Hilster, from 2 years ago.

- Flat Earth Theory as a Prank!

That makes absolute sense. It clearly got hijacked by "True Believers" and "Paid Trolls". I have seen so many concepts and ideas embraced by people that have no basis in reality, yet are promoted by hucksters and believers with their own agendas.

I'm going to have to let this sink in before I can see all of the implications.
I don't mean to degrade the quality of his work, clearly a good presentation and as you indicated, very thought-provoking, and exposes the lack of science in the currently settled sciences. Yet just using a UFO crop hoax results would have been more professional. So I think an editor would have cut his content in half. He appears to use FE for the same sensationalism purposes he accuses its abusers of to get a wider readership. IMO.

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