Plasma - Self Organizing?

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light? If you have a personal favorite theory, that is in someway related to the Electric Universe, this is where it can be posted.
Lloyd
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Plasma - Self Organizing?

Unread post by Lloyd » Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:46 pm

Do you all deny that Thornhill said in a Holoscience.com article that gravity can induce ionization in the core of a large body? That means the closeness of atoms in the core forces out many of the electrons. Thus the core becomes positive and the layer above the core becomes negative. Does that make sense to anyone? That's the innermost double layer. Is it not?

I don't know if "self-organizing" is a realistic term. It seems to me that forces do all the organizing. The electric and magnetic attractions and repulsions along with gravitational attraction. Those are force fields and they organize matter. Do they not? Matter is solid, liquid, gas, or plasma. The Sun's very thin atmosphere is gaseous plasma. The photosphere is denser plasma (forcefully held down by an internal negative double layer. The photosphere surface is thus similar to ocean surface, instead of to atmosphere). The layer below that is supercritical fluid (H & He), according to Robitaille, I think. The interior is likely solid, as Charles found from solar seismic p-waves and s-waves. E.g. http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=7224 & http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=6723

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jacmac
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Re: SAFIRE Experiment: 8 Potential Applications to Natural Phenomena

Unread post by jacmac » Sat Aug 13, 2022 3:52 pm

Lloyd:
Charles' theory was that the Sun is powered by electric double layers. Wal Thornhill once had an article on his website about gravitationally induced ionization within large celestial bodies, in which electrons are expelled by gravitational compression from the core, leaving the core of positive charge and a layer above the core negative. That's electric double layers,
Do you all deny that Thornhill said in a Holoscience.com article that gravity can induce ionization in the core of a large body? That means the closeness of atoms in the core forces out many of the electrons. Thus the core becomes positive and the layer above the core becomes negative. Does that make sense to anyone? That's the innermost double layer. Is it not?
I don't DENY anything you have reported that Wal T or Charles C has said about anything.
You have used "electric double layers" as being the same as a plasma double layer, and then questioning the term "self organizing"
In all my time on this forum I have always seen the term "self organizing" to be used in a plasma context.
And a "double layer" is also used in only a plasma context.
I don't know if "self-organizing" is a realistic term. It seems to me that forces do all the organizing.
I suggest the use of "double layer" in a solid body context is inappropriate, and can then lead to "self organizing" being not realistic.
I am interested to know where W Thornhill or C Chandler have used these terms in a non plasma context.

LLoyd
It seems to me that forces do all the organizing.
It seems to me that the ability of plasma to self organize is fundamental to an understanding of how the universe works.

BeAChooser
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Re: SAFIRE Experiment: 8 Potential Applications to Natural Phenomena

Unread post by BeAChooser » Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:34 pm

Lloyd wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:17 pm All matter responds to forces. What is the "self" you're referring to in self-organizing? Is that consciousness, or a life form?
Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-organization) says “Self-organization ... is a process where some form of overall order arises from local interactions between parts of an initially disordered system. The process can be spontaneous when sufficient energy is available, not needing control by any external agent. It is often triggered by seemingly random fluctuations, amplified by positive feedback. The resulting organization is wholly decentralized, distributed over all the components of the system. As such, the organization is typically robust and able to survive or self-repair substantial perturbation." Regarding cosmology, it notes that ...
]In his 1995 conference paper "Cosmology as a problem in critical phenomena" Lee Smolin said that several cosmological objects or phenomena, such as spiral galaxies, galaxy formation processes in general, early structure formation, quantum gravity and the large scale structure of the universe might be the result of or have involved certain degree of self-organization. He argues that self-organized systems are often critical systems, with structure spreading out in space and time over every available scale, as shown for example by Per Bak and his collaborators. Therefore, because the distribution of matter in the universe is more or less scale invariant over many orders of magnitude, ideas and strategies developed in the study of self-organized systems could be helpful in tackling certain unsolved problems in cosmology and astrophysics.”
I don't think this has anything to do with a life form or consciousness.

jacmac
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Re: SAFIRE Experiment: 8 Potential Applications to Natural Phenomena

Unread post by jacmac » Mon Aug 15, 2022 5:09 pm

Lloyd
It seems to me that forces do all the organizing.
What is the "self" you're referring to in self-organizing? Is that consciousness, or a life form?
BeAChooser
Wikipedia says “Self-organization ... is a process where some form of overall order arises from local interactions between parts of an initially disordered system. The process can be spontaneous when sufficient energy is available, not needing control by any external agent.
I don't think this has anything to do with a life form or consciousness.
I use the term "self organizing" double layer in the same way it has been used many times by the EU community.
From the Essential Guide on the TB home page
Double layers are one of the most important aspects of the self-organizing characteristics of cosmic plasma, as we will see.
From the May 11 2003 archives of Wal Thornhill"s Holoscience:
Because of their property of generating cosmic rays, synchrotron radiation, radio noise, and occasionally exploding, Alfvén proposed, “DL’s may be considered as a new class of celestial objects… For example, the heliospheric current system must close at large distances, and it is possible — perhaps likely — that this is done by a network of filamentary currents. Many such filaments may produce DL’s, and some of these may explode.” To give an idea of their omnipresence in space, DLs are implicated in the earth’s auroral regions, extragalactic jets, stellar jets, novae and supernovae, X-ray and gamma-ray bursts, X-ray pulsars, double radio sources, solar flares, and the source of cosmic ray acceleration.
I don't have time to do a thorough search of 12 years of reading but double layers in cosmic plasma are said to "self organize" into these layers.
Meaning the plasma does this ITSELF in response to conditions it encounters such as, a "foreign body" entering a plasma being surrounded by a double layer of charge to isolate the plasma from it. I think this is supported by Alfven, Peratt, Thornhill. Scott, etc.


The second part of the question
Is that consciousness, or a life form?
I first refer you to a Rupert Sheldrake talk, given at an EU conference, called "Is the sun conscious ?"
https://www.google.com/search?q=rupert+ ... conscious+
I find him to be very enjoyable listening.
or a life form
These are now my own thoughts:
I propose that the ability of space plasma to self organize and create charge separation structures in space,
in several different shapes (planes, cylinders and spheres) IS FOUNDATIONAL TO LIFE ITSELF.
Do I say plasma is alive...No.
Do I say the sun is conscious....No
Do I equate consciousness with life....Yes.

So what do I mean by ...plasma is FOUNDATIONAL to life ?
Plasma seems to be ubiquitous in the universe (99.9%)
and plasma has at its disposal the most powerful force in physics...electromagnetism.
It is well positioned therefore to be foundational, or in some way to be responsible for, or the enabler of life itself.

On my thread ,Plasma and Abiogenesis, I have proposed the ability of lightning plasma
to form cell sized spheres with double layer shells.
These plasma cell sized double layer spheres seem to me to be ideal containers (Cell membranes) for
"random primordial soup" interactions eventually becoming something that might reproduce itself.

If this idea, proposal, or hypothesis might be true, it would solve one half of the question;
How did life start ? It would answer the cell membrane part of the question.
If cells come from other cells dividing, How did the first one form ?
Jack

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Brigit
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SAFIRE Experiment: 8 Potential Applications to Natural Phenomena

Unread post by Brigit » Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:16 am

Plasma is self-organizing, forming twisting filaments, pairs that display long-range attraction and short range repulsion, braids, comas, tails, coronal caps, anode tufting, jets, and many other fine structures in space, besides what is beyond our present detection.

But in the case of the SAFIRE experiment, the chamber was set up from the beginning to be able to accept a certain amount of current, and a certain amount of voltage.

The plasma rearranges itself depending on the electrical input it has.

In other words, it forms a series of different plasma regimes based on what it has, electrically. I personally think of the "self-organizing" aspect of plasma as always adjusting its structure and changing
  • to attain, or
  • to accept and release, or
  • to provide a path for
-- the supply and flow of the charged particles.

As experiment showed, the plasma structures had distinct stages depending on input variables. These transitions could be quite sudden. In particular, the nested double layers were fairly stable and were displaying very interesting electrochemical behavior. For example, elemental sorting. Quite beautiful.

And that is what applies to the stars.
  • Number 6. The sorting of elements in nebulae in space appear to correlate with the sorting of elements in the double layers around the anode in the SAFIRE experiment.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer

Lloyd
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Re: SAFIRE Experiment: 8 Potential Applications to Natural Phenomena

Unread post by Lloyd » Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:06 am

Plasma is matter and matter doesn't organize or move itself. It's moved by the attractive and repulsive forces of electric, magnetic and gravitational fields. And those fields are likely photonic as per Miles Mathis and John Kierein. Photons can be called matter, since they have mass, but they're the only type of matter that produces those attracting and repulsing fields. Does anyone deny the existence of those force fields? Does anyone know physics? Physics is able to predict the behavior of objects by calculating masses, distances, charge, temperature and time. That's how Charles Chandler was able to determine in detail how planets, stars and galaxies form and how their features develop.

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nick c
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Re: SAFIRE Experiment: 8 Potential Applications to Natural Phenomena

Unread post by nick c » Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:45 pm

Lloyd wrote:Plasma is matter and matter doesn't organize or move itself.
Lloyd, your statement uses a semantic sleight of hand. True, plasma is matter but there are different states of matter, and plasma is a state of matter (actually 99% of the matter in the known Universe) that is characterized by being composed of, to some degree, matter with charge. Charged matter interacting with other charged matter results in electrical activity.
So the statement that "plasma is self organizing" is valid.
Lloyd wrote:It's moved by the attractive and repulsive forces of electric, magnetic and gravitational fields.
Electric, magnetic, and gravitational fields cannot exist without matter.

Lloyd
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Re: SAFIRE Experiment: 8 Potential Applications to Natural Phenomena

Unread post by Lloyd » Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:38 am

nick c wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:45 pm
Lloyd wrote:Plasma is matter and matter doesn't organize or move itself.
Lloyd, your statement uses a semantic sleight of hand. True, plasma is matter but there are different states of matter, and plasma is a state of matter (actually 99% of the matter in the known Universe) that is characterized by being composed of, to some degree, matter with charge. Charged matter interacting with other charged matter results in electrical activity.
So the statement that "plasma is self organizing" is valid.
Lloyd wrote:It's moved by the attractive and repulsive forces of electric, magnetic and gravitational fields.
Electric, magnetic, and gravitational fields cannot exist without matter.
Anyone may assume that matter produces fields, but some of us think photons produce fields as well as producing conventional matter.

If matter produces the force fields, doesn't that mean that all states of matter are self-organizing? In which case plasma isn't special. What's the reason to emphasize that plasma is self-organizing? Does that mean we don't have to figure out exactly how it does so? It has a mind of its own, which we can't fathom? So just let it go with it's self-organizing? But we (humans) figured out how other states of matter self-organize, so I don't think that excuse works.

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nick c
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Re: SAFIRE Experiment: 8 Potential Applications to Natural Phenomena

Unread post by nick c » Wed Aug 17, 2022 3:10 pm

Lloyd,
Why don't you start your own thread on the theories or a specific theory of Mathis (or anyone else)?
Discussing that subject on this thread is off topic as can be seen by the thread title: "SAFIRE Experiment: 8 Potential Applications to Natural Phenomena"

jackokie
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Re: SAFIRE Experiment: 8 Potential Applications to Natural Phenomena

Unread post by jackokie » Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:50 pm

@Lloyd I second @nick c's suggestion regarding Miles Mathis. Also Charles Chandler. Have any of Chandler's theories been tested in the lab? How about Mathis? Has the B-Photon been looked for?
Time is what prevents everything from happening all at once.

Lloyd
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Re: Plasma - Self Organizing?

Unread post by Lloyd » Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:51 pm

When Safire was in the planning stage, Charles asked Monty Childs to have it test cathode mode, but Childs wouldn't listen. Charles wanted to have discussions with the Thunderbolts team, but no one had time.

danda
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Re: Plasma - Self Organizing?

Unread post by danda » Sun Aug 21, 2022 8:25 pm

Some ways I think about things that may be somewhat relevant:

1. the "universe" is infinite/endless and is an open system in constant motion.
2. there is no closed system anywhere. everything is animated by matter flowing from elsewhere.
3. "fields" are simply motions/waves within the ether of varying types.
4. there is no "empty space" anywhere. "nothing" cannot exist. The ether pervades all.
5. The ether is very dense. infinitely dense. It is the sum of all matter that exists at infinite scales below ours.
6. Our "matter" is concentrations of ether that have reached a high vibratory state.
7. self-similarity. Large structures in our scale are tiny structures in the next scale up, and vice versa. To understand the small we should study the large, and vice versa.

Since everything is an open system, I don't think of anything as truly "self organizing" except perhaps the universe as a whole. There is always an in-flow and out-flow. However things can appear to be self organizing if the inflow and outflows are not readily observable, such as for example the ether wind.

crawler
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Re: Plasma - Self Organizing?

Unread post by crawler » Sun Aug 21, 2022 9:22 pm

danda wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 8:25 pm Some ways I think about things that may be somewhat relevant:

1. the "universe" is infinite/endless and is an open system in constant motion.
2. there is no closed system anywhere. everything is animated by matter flowing from elsewhere.
3. "fields" are simply motions/waves within the ether of varying types.
4. there is no "empty space" anywhere. "nothing" cannot exist. The ether pervades all.
5. The ether is very dense. infinitely dense. It is the sum of all matter that exists at infinite scales below ours.
6. Our "matter" is concentrations of ether that have reached a high vibratory state.
7. self-similarity. Large structures in our scale are tiny structures in the next scale up, and vice versa. To understand the small we should study the large, and vice versa.

Since everything is an open system, I don't think of anything as truly "self organizing" except perhaps the universe as a whole. There is always an in-flow and out-flow. However things can appear to be self organizing if the inflow and outflows are not readily observable, such as for example the ether wind.
Conrad Ranzan's DSSU model is the best.
STR is krapp -- & GTR is mostly krapp.
The present Einsteinian Dark Age of science will soon end – for the times they are a-changin'.
The aether will return – it never left.

danda
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Re: Plasma - Self Organizing?

Unread post by danda » Mon Aug 22, 2022 2:10 am

crawler wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 9:22 pm Conrad Ranzan's DSSU model is the best.
thanks for the pointer. I just read the intro to DSSU and most of the faqs.

I found myself agreeing with his initial premises/analysis except I think he leaves out a critical piece:

There is no smallest and there is no largest. There is only scale. The universe is infinitely divisible. Otherwise one must explain boundary conditions as one divides further and further. And also this is the only way to avoid regions of "nothing" somehow existing between matter.

So in my conception, everything is fractal and self-similar. So one can study the large to understand the small, and vice-versa. This appears to be missing in DSSU as he discussses in the FAQ hypothetical "smallest" units.

He also appears to agree that redshift indicates expansion, even if only locally somehow within a cell. I believe redshift to be simply explained as tired light because light is simply a wave in the ether medium, and all waves lose energy and lengthen. So I don't believe that "space" is expanding in all directions around us at all, which DSSU seems to accept.

Anyway, I really dig his basic analysis and pure logic building things up. I've done most of the same thought processes until he gets to the expansion/contraction stuff, at which point I lose the plot with DSSU.

crawler
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Re: Plasma - Self Organizing?

Unread post by crawler » Mon Aug 22, 2022 3:42 am

danda wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 2:10 am
crawler wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 9:22 pm Conrad Ranzan's DSSU model is the best.
thanks for the pointer. I just read the intro to DSSU and most of the faqs.

I found myself agreeing with his initial premises/analysis except I think he leaves out a critical piece:

There is no smallest and there is no largest. There is only scale. The universe is infinitely divisible. Otherwise one must explain boundary conditions as one divides further and further. And also this is the only way to avoid regions of "nothing" somehow existing between matter.

So in my conception, everything is fractal and self-similar. So one can study the large to understand the small, and vice-versa. This appears to be missing in DSSU as he discussses in the FAQ hypothetical "smallest" units.

He also appears to agree that redshift indicates expansion, even if only locally somehow within a cell. I believe redshift to be simply explained as tired light because light is simply a wave in the ether medium, and all waves lose energy and lengthen. So I don't believe that "space" is expanding in all directions around us at all, which DSSU seems to accept.

Anyway, I really dig his basic analysis and pure logic building things up. I've done most of the same thought processes until he gets to the expansion/contraction stuff, at which point I lose the plot with DSSU.
Conrad duznt believe in an expanding BB universe -- his tired light theory might be his best idea.
STR is krapp -- & GTR is mostly krapp.
The present Einsteinian Dark Age of science will soon end – for the times they are a-changin'.
The aether will return – it never left.

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