Plasma - Self Organizing?

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light? If you have a personal favorite theory, that is in someway related to the Electric Universe, this is where it can be posted.
danda
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Re: Plasma - Self Organizing?

Unread post by danda » Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:26 am

I didn't say expanding BB. But he does state various times that space is expanding. Such as:
The name Dynamic Steady State Universe was chosen to designate an equilibrium universe in which space expands but the universe itself does not.
In other words, the nature of space was such that it had to expand or contract
Then came the hard evidence. Astronomers, most notably Vesto Slipher, followed in the 1920s by Carl Wirtz, and Edwin Hubble, found that all but the nearest galaxies appeared to be receding from our solar system and our Milky Way galaxy. Evidently the cosmic space between galaxies was expanding. It was the light from those galaxies that held the key. As the light from far-off galaxies radiates through expanding space the light waves are stretched —slowly, relentlessly, cumulatively. The resulting elongated light waves carry the measurable imprint of space expansion. The measurable imprint is called the redshift — the hard evidence.
He makes no mention of Halton Arps observations of physically connected objects where the younger/smaller one shows blueshift and larger/older blueshift. https://risingtidefoundation.net/2021/0 ... -galaxies/


Also, he doesn't consider his redshift model tired light.
Just want to point out something about the DSSU redshift mechanism: Because it encompasses both energy loss AND energy gain, it cannot be classed as a tired-light model.

Regards, Conrad (2018-8-28)
anyway well, I'm no expert on his theory and don't wish to debate it further. I find the theory initially interesting, most especially for his foundational logic, but it's not quite something to hang my own hat on since it doesn't incorporate self-similar / fractal nature and explain/incorporate the very small.

Surik
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Re: Plasma - Self Organizing?

Unread post by Surik » Mon Aug 22, 2022 6:53 am

Hello. I am a new forum member.
I am from Poland and I communicate with you through a translator. I apologise for possible mistakes.
In relation to the issue of plasma organization. I found on the Internet a very interesting theory that almost from the very beginning led to the process of plasma organization, until its transition into a phase called a solid. Theory 31 of my compatriot Tadeusz Teller.
Although it is very coherent, based on undisputed experience in classical physics, it is completely ignored by the scientific community. Probably you will also arouse controversy. But notice how simple and consistent it describes the organization of matter step by step, explains the origin of gravity, organizes the Mendeleev table. I believe that this theory is worth getting acquainted with. Perhaps it will become a milestone on the way to explaining the genesis of the universe. She realizes that the model of the atom presented in it completely destroys the commonly accepted concept. But thanks to this, he removes from anuka the absurdities that have been swept under the carpet of ignorance over the years. I would like to start a separate thread about this theory at all, but I do not have such a possibility. Greetings from distant Poland
http://model31.pl/en/author/ryszardwalo/
http://89.161.161.1/index.php
the first link is also in English, but for some reason it can't be opened recently. The server must be overloaded
please use the translator in the second link

Lloyd
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Re: Plasma - Self Organizing?

Unread post by Lloyd » Wed Aug 24, 2022 2:44 pm

Regarding:
4. there is no "empty space" anywhere. "nothing" cannot exist. The ether pervades all.
There's no reason empty space can't exist. It has volume, which is 3 dimensions of length. Length exists, doesn't it? The so-called ether is probably photons and photons are probably infinitely divisible. If ether were tightly packed, with no space between ether particles, how could anything have motion? And how could one ether particle be distinguished from another if there's no space between particles? At all orders of magnitude there is likely matter and space, ether/photons being microcosmic matter.

Also, the universe and the space within it is not expanding significantly, since the redshift is due to ionization (the Compton effect), not acceleration (the Doppler effect).

BeAChooser
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Re: Plasma - Self Organizing?

Unread post by BeAChooser » Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:51 pm

Surik wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 6:53 am Hello. I am a new forum member.
Welcome.
Surik wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 6:53 am http://model31.pl/en/author/ryszardwalo/
Interesting. But I notice that the Model 31 description says “Dark energy sets the energy quanta into motion.” Seriously? I felt a little better when he suggested using the term “ether” instead of “dark energy”. By the way, where do people come up with ideas like this? The ether? ;)

jacmac
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Re: Plasma - Self Organizing?

Unread post by jacmac » Thu Aug 25, 2022 3:47 am

!.
From the link above
http://model31.pl/en/author/ryszardwalo/
The modified first law of motion reads as follows.

If an object is acted upon by any external forces or a force that acts on the object is in balance with the resistance force counteracting this motion, the object remains at rest.
This is poorly written. The ever present resistance force needs to be stated in the law to make any sense.

Also. "with the resistance force counteracting this motion,"...What motion ? this is the first time the word motion appears.
A motion must be stated in some way before one can say "this motion".

Perhaps there is a translator problem.
2.
The thread is titled Plasma Self-Organizing/
What does this all have to do with plasma ?
jack

danda
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Re: Plasma - Self Organizing?

Unread post by danda » Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:18 am

First of all I don't claim to be "right". So please read the rest of this in that light. I just enjoy thinking about these things, and I tend to do so by ignoring most all physics of the 20th century and really going back to first principles and thought experiments much like the greeks and early natural philosophers did. I won't go into all the first principles here, so apologies for anything that seems unsupported.
Lloyd wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 2:44 pm There's no reason empty space can't exist. It has volume, which is 3 dimensions of length. Length exists, doesn't it?
Length is merely a measurement in a coordinate system. A measurement of what? something physical. Length does not exist as something unto itself.

If space is "empty" then what does it consist of? Nothing? How can nothing exist? Considering all of existence -- the "beginning" -- either something exists or nothing exists. We are here, hence something exists and not nothing. I think therefore I am.

If somehow both "something" (matter) can exist and also nothing, then what is the boundary between something and nothing? What stops the something from spilling into the nothing? Wouldn't it then be something? Anyway, you have a boundary condition to resolve. And that's never simple. How can "fields" exist in nothing? Stated differently, explaining how "nothing" can exist at all, is at least as hard as explaining how "something" can fill all of space.

You may choose to believe that somehow nothing can exist. Though you will be disagreeing with Aristotle, Descarte, Maxwell, Lorentz, Tesla and many other big thinkers. (and agreeing with others) At this time, I choose to believe the simpler (occam's razor) explanation is that all of everything is filled with "something". In my present conception, that something is fractally self-similar. In this view, the ether is something like an infinitely dense superfluid/supersolid "ocean", and our "matter" is high energy concentrations or vortexes or vibrations in this ocean. The matter at lower fractal scales (to infinity) are what fill space, and our matter contributes to the ether for scales above/larger than ours.

I believe that what has been missing from physics of the very large and small, and especially from ether discussions, is the fractal, scalable, self-similarity that we see over and over again in nature.
The so-called ether is probably photons and photons are probably infinitely divisible.
I don't believe in the concept of photons as some kind of particle. I believe light to be purely a wave in the medium of the ether. Waves do not exist on their own, but only as transmission of movement (energy) between constituent particles of the medium.

Now one can give a wave another name, but I prefer just to call it a wave.
If ether were tightly packed, with no space between ether particles, how could anything have motion?
yeah, this is hard to wrap ones mind around. I haven't fully done so myself, but I have kind of an idea.

Waves transmit faster in dense materials. But it also depends on elasticity/compressability, which is a kind of motion. And for transverse waves in solids it depends on shear strength. But as a basic rule of thumb, the more dense a material, the faster waves travel through it. eg waves travel fastest in solids, then liquids, then gases. The fact that light travels very quickly as a transverse wave is a strong indicator that it is travelling through a dense, solid-like medium.

As for matter (at our scale) having motion... well, I think of the ether as being like a super super super fluid (or "viscous solid") with smaller and smaller constituents recursively all the way down to infinity that all can slip by eachother because they are mostly operating at different scales. Similarly to how a submarine can move through the ocean, which we perceive as "full" of water, so our "matter" (which is concentrations of dynamic ether) can move through the ether... remembering also that matter itself is 99.99999.... "empty" (or ether-filled).
And how could one ether particle be distinguished from another if there's no space between particles? At all orders of magnitude there is likely matter and space, ether/photons being microcosmic matter.
At any given scale, space/ether is not full of "matter" belonging to that scale. Just as at our scale there is immense distance between solar systems, planets, and galaxies. But the ether is not just particles from 1 scale below us but is the sum of an infinite number of scales below us, forever. So for a given nanometer of "space" there is an infinity of subdivisions, each containing a tiny percentage of "matter" at that level, until every last bit is filled.

I guess a way to envision this is if you mentally take our visible universe n^1 and shrink it down to the size of an electron or so, and say ok, that's an electron-sized unit of ether n^-1. And then you mentally enter that unit of ether, shrink the entire thing down to the size of an electron at that scale, and call that a unit of ether at n^-2. Turtles all the way down.

As to how this all works out exactly, I don't claim to know. For now, it's just fun to think about. However, I have started making some notes for ideas how to model this with some data structures and a recursive computer algorithm. Perhaps I can have a better answer in the future.
Also, the universe and the space within it is not expanding significantly, since the redshift is due to ionization (the Compton effect), not acceleration (the Doppler effect).
I agree space is not expanding though I attribute redshift to "tired light" which I conceive as simply light waves losing energy and elongating, which all waves travelling through a medium do. here again, light is no more special than a water wave.

ps: here is a nice writeup of the history of ether thinking, and some problems the theory ran into towards the "end". I didn't know all this, so I actually repeated a fair amount of it in my own mind, such as concluding the ether must be dense and have solid-like properties.

https://science.slashdot.org/comments.p ... d=62814531

Surik
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Re: Plasma - Self Organizing?

Unread post by Surik » Sat Aug 27, 2022 6:39 pm

The thread is titled Plasma Self-Organizing/
What does this all have to do with plasma ?
jack
[/quote]

The author of Theory 31 treats plasma as a very important stage in the evolution of the universe. He shows you step by step how it comes to being created. It may be wrong on some points, maybe entirely. The term dark energy is used hypothetically, I like ether better. However, there is something that fascinates me about this theory. Its consistency and compliance with classical physics. That is why I am surprised that it is so easily floated.

Surik
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Re: Plasma - Self Organizing?

Unread post by Surik » Sat Aug 27, 2022 6:43 pm

You use the term ether for the initial state of all energy that you perceive as a wave in that ether. Bingo
Familiarize yourself with Theory 31 which I linked and let me know what you think about it
Your view that a quantum is simply a wave and not a particle is entirely consistent with this theory. Also the fact that the light wave is weakened and gradually turns into the radio band. There are no different forms of waves. There is one wave that has different energetic (vibrational) potential which becomes elongated and weakened without amplification

Surik
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Re: Plasma - Self Organizing?

Unread post by Surik » Sun Aug 28, 2022 9:21 am

A photon is a slice of an electromagnetic wave with two magnetic poles. Such a concept of an energy particle applies to all types of electromagnetic waves. They differ only in the energy accumulated in the vibration of such a particle. In essence, however, they are one and the same. Wave. What waves, however, is not known to the oldest shamans

Surik
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Re: Plasma - Self Organizing?

Unread post by Surik » Mon Aug 29, 2022 6:30 pm

BeAChooser wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:51 pm
Surik wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 6:53 am Hello. I am a new forum member.
Welcome.
Surik wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 6:53 am http://model31.pl/en/author/ryszardwalo/
Interesting. But I notice that the Model 31 description says “Dark energy sets the energy quanta into motion.” Seriously? I felt a little better when he suggested using the term “ether” instead of “dark energy”. By the way, where do people come up with ideas like this? The ether? ;)
You are probably wondering why on the forum about the EU I propose to get acquainted with the theory postulating the existence of dark energy.
Because there are so many creative, mind-opening concepts out there that don't deserve to be ignored.
The concept of a quantum as a carrier of all existing interactions and a building block for all known atomic particles is intriguing.
The more that we still do not know the essence of gravity, mass.
Evolution of a massless energy quantum into a mass energy particle, even if it is not true in Theory 31, this is how it should be done. In a simple and explainable way.

Lloyd
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Re: Plasma - Self Organizing?

Unread post by Lloyd » Mon Oct 10, 2022 1:58 am

This is for JacMac. It's a quote from Bruce on the Chromosphere from his article, A New Approach in Astrophysics and Cosmogony at https://www.catastrophism.com/texts/bruce/astro.htm
(2.3) The Chromosphere
The sudden change in regime of the electric discharge when a pressure of the order of one-hundredth of an atmosphere is reached, clears up one of the most fundamental difficulties of the subject, namely that of explaining the bright, clear-cut surface of the sun and stars. For below this gas pressure an electric arc can no longer be maintained, and the discharge becomes a low-current, high-voltage glow discharge, still luminous and capable of giving rise to the wide variety of colour effects which led Sir Norman Lockyer to give the name chromosphere to this region. The laboratory glow discharge ceases to be luminous at a pressure of about 10-5 atmosphere, so that this gives an upper limit for the pressure at the surface of the chromosphere, a value agreeing quite well with other estimates, while the theoretical value of the pressure at the surface of the photosphere, about 10-2 atmosphere, is in very good agreement with recent estimates. The theory likewise accounts for the curious structure of the chromosphere, which has been aptly compared with blades of grass, or "as if countless jets of heated gas were issuing through vents and spiracles over the whole surface." Each blade or jet represents a separate discharge channel, its direction varying according to the electric and magnetic fields in its neighbourhood, and in general the whole description of the chromosphere, as found, for example, in Abetti's The Sun, will be seen to accord well with the present theory.
How's that? There's a little more info in the article about the chromosphere if you're interested in checking it out.

jacmac
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Re: Plasma - Self Organizing?

Unread post by jacmac » Tue Oct 11, 2022 2:42 am

for Lloyd;
C E R Bruce was an early pioneer of the idea that the sun is electric, or perhaps that the sun has an electric atmosphere.
I note in his 1944 paper he does not use the term plasma.
His background was in lightning.
I assume,(he is not easy to read), that his NEW THEORY was that the atmosphere of the sun is an electric discharge
created by the large forces within the sun.
He goes on to explain the parts of the sun are based on differing levels of atmospheric PRESSURE,
whereby the arc discharge of the photosphere drops down to a glow discharge (chromosphere) due to lower pressure.

I know you offer this as evidence of a non double layer sun;
and therefore one that does not need any plasma SELF ORGANIZING.

I agree with nick's comments several posts back
Lloyd, your statement uses a semantic sleight of hand. True, plasma is matter but there are different states of matter, and plasma is a state of matter (actually 99% of the matter in the known Universe) that is characterized by being composed of, to some degree, matter with charge. Charged matter interacting with other charged matter results in electrical activity.
So the statement that "plasma is self organizing" is valid.
There are copious amounts of discussion and comments about the ability of plasma,
to "self organize" into double layers in space. This means the charged particles in the plasma can organize
into positive layer and negative layer, maintain these layers, and can do so in different shapes and at different scales,
in different environments.

you seem to think by me using the term SELF ORGANIZING that I believe the plasma is alive.
The good lecture by Rupert Sheldrake notwithstanding, I don't think plasma is alive.

I do, however, think that the ability of plants and animals to be alive is basically derived, in a significant way, from
the ability of double layers to form in plasma. Thus, otherwise random charged plasma particles can create
charge separation, and physical structure.
I think the origin of the cell membrane in biology comes directly from
microscopic cell sized plasma double layered spheres, probably created by lightning strikes,
which were used by the so called primordial soup for containment.
Thus giving living cells a much better chance to begin.

I know I stand alone with this idea, even on the EU forum.
That's ok.
Jack.

Lloyd
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Re: Plasma - Self Organizing?

Unread post by Lloyd » Wed Oct 12, 2022 2:56 pm

I didn't even remember what Bruce said. I wasn't using it as evidence against whatever you said. I just thought you might be interested in another EU theorist's view on the chromosphere that I happened to run across lately. And I don't engage in sleight of hand. You guys are just paranoid and I won't bother communicating with you henceforth.

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Brigit
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Re: Plasma - Self Organizing?

Unread post by Brigit » Tue Oct 25, 2022 1:23 am

Lloyd says, "I don't know if "self-organizing" is a realistic term. It seems to me that forces do all the organizing. The electric and magnetic attractions and repulsions along with gravitational attraction. Those are force fields and they organize matter."

Right. Gas has no particular fixed shape and no particular density. In a room, it takes up the shape of the room and becomes very defuse. Plasma is likewise very defuse in space, but because it is ionized, it begins to organize into "shapes" , you could say.

"So what," someone might say. The forces which do all the organizing of the plasma in space or in industrial applications are well understood and well known.

True, in a way. I think you can send off to the Navy and they will send you a booklet with all of the math for the plasma formations.

In particular, when a plasma of one electron density meets another plasma of a different density, they develop a wall between them called a plasma double layer. Then the beauty of plasma follows, and many unusual forms and "shapes" come into being. And as the motion of one plasma flows along the double layer of another plasma, an electrical current is generated.

I would not be too sure of the equations for plasma. There is no math for some of it. Yet. And experiment and observation are still the best guides. This is what is meant by saying plasma is self-organizing. It just means, "stay tuned", because the Navy booklet equations don't have it all.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer

jacmac
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Re: Plasma - Self Organizing?

Unread post by jacmac » Tue Oct 25, 2022 1:49 am

Lloyd:
"I didn't even remember what Bruce said. I wasn't using it as evidence against whatever you said. I just thought you might be interested in another EU theorist's view on the chromosphere that I happened to run across lately. And I don't engage in sleight of hand. You guys are just paranoid and I won't bother communicating with you henceforth."
Sorry Lloyd, I assumed we were still debating.
And I was responding to previous comments from you on the topic.

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