Electric Universe and SciFi

[mes5464]

I am a big believer in the EU. Now when I watch scifi it seems wrong to me. We need scifi that teaches EU, to that end I have a few question.

What would faster than light travel look like in the EU?
Could a space ship use the EU as fuel?
What kinds of weapons could a ship have?
How could ships scan and see/look around in space and on planets?

[Michael Mozina]

I am a big believer in the EU. Now when I watch scifi it seems wrong to me. We need scifi that teaches EU, to that end I have a few question.

What would faster than light travel look like in the EU?

Hmm. There's probably no particle of matter which can travel faster than light in a *vacuum*. You could treat plasma as a "medium" of sorts however, but nothing would likely exceed the speed of light in EU/PC theory. It's essentially based on known laws of nature, and as far as we know, nothing travels faster than light in a vacuum.

Could a space ship use the EU as fuel?

A space ship could tap into the electrical currents of spacetime rather than being required to take all it's fuel at first.

What kinds of weapons could a ship have?

Standard stuff I'd imagine, like rail guns and lasers and atomic weapons I suppose. Naval vessels today use nuclear power plants to generate electrical current for use on the ship. That seems like a possible way to generate at least enough energy to support life support and basic systems without necessarily generating all the typical thrust required for space travel.

How could ships scan and see/look around in space and on planets?

"Scanning" would probably be pretty much passive and "long distance" until they got up close to various objects. I suppose cameras using various wavelengths would eventually provide a lot of surface detail. Getting to the planets would be the first part of the process. I'd assume that a tether based energy capture system of some sort would come in rather handy. The first tether system that NASA played with generated so much extra current that it burned right through the cable.

It may not be necessary to bring much of the total energy along at launch, so much as learn to tap into the existing electrical currents in space.

[mes5464]

I am a big believer in the EU. Now when I watch scifi it seems wrong to me. We need scifi that teaches EU, to that end I have a few question.

What would faster than light travel look like in the EU?

Hmm. There's probably no particle of matter which can travel faster than light in a *vacuum*. You could treat plasma as a "medium" of sorts however, but nothing would likely exceed the speed of light in EU/PC theory. It's essentially based on known laws of nature, and as far as we know, nothing travels faster than light in a vacuum.

Could a space ship use the EU as fuel?

A space ship could tap into the electrical currents of spacetime rather than being required to take all it's fuel at first.

What kinds of weapons could a ship have?

Standard stuff I'd imagine, like rail guns and lasers and atomic weapons I suppose. Naval vessels today use nuclear power plants to generate electrical current for use on the ship. That seems like a possible way to generate at least enough energy to support life support and basic systems without necessarily generating all the typical thrust required for space travel.

How could ships scan and see/look around in space and on planets?

"Scanning" would probably be pretty much passive and "long distance" until they got up close to various objects. I suppose cameras using various wavelengths would eventually provide a lot of surface detail. Getting to the planets would be the first part of the process. I'd assume that a tether based energy capture system of some sort would come in rather handy. The first tether system that NASA played with generated so much extra current that it burned right through the cable.

It may not be necessary to bring much of the total energy along at launch, so much as learn to tap into the existing electrical currents in space.

Thank you for your reply.

For clarification, I realize that FTL travel is a fictional concept as far as we know now, so I am think, "what would be a reasonable, fictional idea of travel that would allow one to cross the vastness of space?"

To that end, could the currents in the plasma be used push a trip up to the speed of light?
Could a ship travel against the current?

I'm no scientist so I am asking these questions out of ignorance. Thank you for your time.

[Michael Mozina]

Thank you for your reply.

For clarification, I realize that FTL travel is a fictional concept as far as we know now, so I am think, "what would be a reasonable, fictional idea of travel that would allow one to cross the vastness of space?"

I'd think any propulsion system that could provide even a slow but steady form of acceleration would eventually make the ship travel at close to C. If it could produce 1G of continuous thrust you'd even have a logical way of replicating gravity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_propulsion_engine

You'd definitely need some serious electromagnetic shielding and other types of shielding to protect the hull from even small particles of dust hitting the hull at C.

To that end, could the currents in the plasma be used push a trip up to the speed of light?

I'd think so. Essentially they already use plasma thrusters as propulsion systems in space which could eventually produce some high speeds.

Could a ship travel against the current?

Sure, maybe just by charging the outside fields differently? In Scott's Birkeland current model, various "shells"/tubes of ions could be traveling in opposite directions at different radii from the core of the current.

I'm no scientist so I am asking these questions out of ignorance. Thank you for your time.

This is science "fiction" afterall, and some creativity is therefore warranted.

[Earl Sinclair]

I'm new here, so I apologize if I'm rehashing things...

I am proficient in electronics and electrical circuits, and I understand that they work at the speed of light. And, there's a lag time - measurable and reliable - using Maxwell's equations among others...

BUT, I find it hard to believe that there can be a "circuit" that spans multiple light years, or even hundreds of light years that work at the speed of light.You're telling me that if a circuit is broken at one end, and the other end is 100 light years away, that it'll not be able to react to it for at least 200 years? And, that otherwise, all along the circuit, everything still works and interacts normally during that whole time? And, if it's a circular circuit, it may be even 300-400 years before it breaks? Then what happens to the various energy points?

One surmises that one could travel along a filament in either direction, by picking the right part of a Birkeland current..But that the path would be helical? And, would it be like traveling inside a lightning bolt? What kind of havoc would that create, electrically? I imagine such could be mitigated, but boy that would be interesting.

Then there's the acceleration problem - your ship enters a filament, and ....gets bounced around like a rubber duck in a stream? Until you're going faster and faster, and at most going as fast as the filament currents?

All intriguing questions, and certainly no sci-fi book I've read addresses those concerns.

( Which is why I'm outlining one now.... )


Earl

[Michael Mozina]

I'm new here, so I apologize if I'm rehashing things...

I am proficient in electronics and electrical circuits, and I understand that they work at the speed of light. And, there's a lag time - measurable and reliable - using Maxwell's equations among others...

BUT, I find it hard to believe that there can be a "circuit" that spans multiple light years, or even hundreds of light years that work at the speed of light.You're telling me that if a circuit is broken at one end, and the other end is 100 light years away, that it'll not be able to react to it for at least 200 years? And, that otherwise, all along the circuit, everything still works and interacts normally during that whole time? And, if it's a circular circuit, it may be even 300-400 years before it breaks? Then what happens to the various energy points?

One surmises that one could travel along a filament in either direction, by picking the right part of a Birkeland current..But that the path would be helical? And, would it be like traveling inside a lightning bolt? What kind of havoc would that create, electrically? I imagine such could be mitigated, but boy that would be interesting.

Then there's the acceleration problem - your ship enters a filament, and ....gets bounced around like a rubber duck in a stream? Until you're going faster and faster, and at most going as fast as the filament currents?

All intriguing questions, and certainly no sci-fi book I've read addresses those concerns.

( Which is why I'm outlining one now.... )


Earl

I think those are all pretty cool ideas.

One bit of NASA history you might look into is it's work with a "tether" in space which was meant to harness the electrical energy in space. It essentially fried the cable in half.

https://pwg.gsfc.nasa.gov/Education/wtether.html

The nature of the break suggested it was not caused by excessive tension, but rather that an electric current had melted the tether.

Basically NASA's electrical generation system succeeded in generating electrical current *far* beyond their wildest expectations, literally burning the cable in half. I'd imaging that this type of technology will eventually allow us to tap into the current streams in space, and we'll have to learn to "sail the electrical currents" through space. I don't think that taping into 'electricity' in space is likely to be a problem.

I think you're definitely headed in the right direction.

I too would expect the path to be helical through the plasma streams by the way, and I suspect the rubber ducky analogy might be appropriate too.

MHD (HYDRO DYNAMIC) theory is based upon 'fluid dynamics' because plasma tends to have very fluid-like qualities.

[Higgsy]

One bit of NASA history you might look into is it's work with a "tether" in space which was meant to harness the electrical energy in space. It essentially fried the cable in half.

https://pwg.gsfc.nasa.gov/Education/wtether.html

The nature of the break suggested it was not caused by excessive tension, but rather that an electric current had melted the tether.

Basically NASA's electrical generation system succeeded in generating electrical current *far* beyond their wildest expectations, literally burning the cable in half. I'd imaging that this type of technology will eventually allow us to tap into the current streams in space, and we'll have to learn to "sail the electrical currents" through space. I don't think that taping into 'electricity' in space is likely to be a problem.

Except, except, it wasn't "tapping into the current streams in space" but inducing an EMF (and hence a current) in the wire by moving the wire through Earth's magnetic field. Ultimately the energy was coming from the kinetic energy of the space craft itself, and any energy harvested would be at the expense of KE and degrade the orbit, since the induction process also created a drag in the wire. It's a sort of dynamo. And the voltage generated was no higher than expected - the current burnt out the wire because of shorts caused by pinholes in the insulation. It has, sadly, nothing to do with sailing the electrical currents through space.

I don't think you realise how tenuous the ISM is and how low the current densities are.

[Cargo]

the voltage generated was no higher than expected - the current burnt out the wire because of shorts caused by pinholes in the insulation.

What is your reference for this?

[antosarai]

the voltage generated was no higher than expected - the current burnt out the wire because of shorts caused by pinholes in the insulation.

What is your reference for this?

Mr. Mozina's posting?

[Solar]

Here is the Nasa archival page concerning that tether experiment:

The Space Tether Experiment

[paladin17]

BUT, I find it hard to believe that there can be a "circuit" that spans multiple light years, or even hundreds of light years that work at the speed of light.You're telling me that if a circuit is broken at one end, and the other end is 100 light years away, that it'll not be able to react to it for at least 200 years? And, that otherwise, all along the circuit, everything still works and interacts normally during that whole time? And, if it's a circular circuit, it may be even 300-400 years before it breaks? Then what happens to the various energy points?

This is simply a question of human perspective (exactly as you say: "hard to believe").
We assume that everything is OK with the lag of 10 us in a 3 km long circuit, because we don't even notice it anyway, but a year lag in a light year long circuit makes us understandably baffled. Yet principally there is no difference - the lag is still there even for the smallest of circuits, and all the effects are the same.

[jacmac]

paladin17

This is simply a question of human perspective (exactly as you say: "hard to believe").

I agree.
We need complete "circuits" to harness electricity to do work.
Plasma in space might have other methods.
Happy Holidays,
Jack

[Earl Sinclair]

I grant that I'm a human, though my wife may debate that..

How stable can a circuit be if it spans such vast distances. Certainly in digital electronics, timing is critical to keep the information stable. In analog circuits, there's a bit more leeway, but if parts of such a circuit are gyrating or getting feedback in one or more directions, its stability deteriorates.

In the old days of radio, "regenerative" receivers were widely used due to their sensitivity. But, if you've ever used such a receiver, you realize quickly that YOU are part of the circuit..reach for the volume knob, and the output may squeal due to one form of feedback based upon the capacitance between you, the receiver, and the table. Reach for the tuning knob - and you could get a different effect.

Regenerative receivers were fantastic in a lot of ways - they were far more sensitive than crystal receivers but were a pain to use. A user would develop ways to stabilize it - like putting a large glass of water in JUST the right place to keep the receiver on freq.

Then again, on a cosmic scale, what constitutes "stable" anyway?


Earl

[Solar]

How stable can a circuit be if it spans such vast distances.
(...)
Then again, on a cosmic scale, what constitutes "stable" anyway?


Earl

Perhaps explanation is before one's eyes as to why the currents constantly 'reconfigure' at a variety of scales.

[Cargo]

Here is the Nasa archival page concerning that tether experiment:

The Space Tether Experiment

I was remembering one done by Japan. Not that one ?hmm